Calling the Campy Experts here

apoman-<< as the Paramount has Cable housing guides on the
top tube. I'm thinking too there may be a cable routing
problem with an Ergo configuration on this type of frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

There wpuldn't be but-

Apoman-<< I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record
Downtube shifters, but am considering perhaps a modern Campy
record hub/freewheel in 9, or 10 speed cassette. Most likely
a double chainring 39/53 in front. >><BR><BR>

<< My question is: "Will the old style Downtube shifters
have a problem operating through the full range of movement
on a modern day Record rear Derailleur utilizing a modern
day 9, or 10 Speed Cassette?" >><BR><BR>

Using the last generation, 'big right barrell', C-
Record friction shifter, and it will, combined with a
modern rear der.

The stack of 8s(what this shifter was designed for) is not
that much shorter than 9/10s.

Altho a BIG fan of friction(I use it on my Merckx), finding
cogs may be somewhat challenging, w/o noise, as these cogs
are really close together. It may be a better idea to use a
modern rear hub, loose 9 or 10s cogs and black Campag
spacers, to make the cogs father apart. less cogs but
easier to shift.

apoman-<< I know there's certainly also nothing wrong with
the older NOS Record Brake Levers, and these shouldn't be a
problem I imagine actuating the newer Campy Brake Calipers?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

You can use either with either. Old levers., new brakes and
vice versa.

apoman-<< I'm hoping my question doesn't come off as
sounding stupid, and I appreciate the advice of those in the
"know" about this sort of thing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted message said:

From: "Mark":

Quoted message said:

I'm going to be building up an NOS Paramount frame, (snip)

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking that Campy Ergo Levers are going to look
pretty stupid on this bike, as the Paramount has Cable

Quoted message said:

housing guides on the top tube.

(snip snip)

Quoted message said:

considering perhaps a modern Campy record hub/freewheel in
9, or 10 speed cassette. Most likely a double chainring
39/53 in front.

[Concerns inre Record brake levers (non brifter) working
with new-pattern Campy calipers.]

My ca. '92 Tommasini SLX has interior TT cable routing,
front entry right about
11:00 (from the rear, of course), a difference of a scant
half inch, max, compared to centered guides. Ergo 8sp
works great on this old Tommi and no one (who cares who
cares who cares?) has ever audibly made other than
complimentary remarks about this frame/bike.

(Expanding): This is my Johnny Cash bike, parts from many
years. TA cages (pending replacement) C Record crank
(165), Nuovo Record SF front hub, 8sp Record rear, Record
Carbon 8sp BB System brifters ("pointy"hoods), Chorus
Profit pedals, later front (believed to be early 9sp)
derailleur, Chorus D brakes, old Tommi panto SP (mfg.
unknown), Turbo suede/steel saddle, Cinelli 1A, Top Ergo
66 deep, non-ergo bars.

Never a trace of indigestion, non-matching rims and all.

I like brifters so much better than DT levers that I
wouldn't dream of going back, except maybe for a total period-
correct bike. --TP

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:11:51 -0700, Mark wrote:

Quoted message said:

Hi David, Thank you for your post. I gather what you mean,
is that the width of the cassettes are all about the same
regardless of whether they are 8, 9, or 10 speed, as they
all have to fit within the dropouts on a frame, correct?
So then in this case, the rear derailleur travels the same
amount of distance/travel in, and out, regardless of the
number of cassette cogs, right?

Doing a bit of reading about Campagnolo Modern Brake
Calipers, namely the Record Dual Pivot Units, I understand
that these use bearings, versus the less expensive models
which I believe use bushings instead.

I don't really know that this may have been a problem?, but
I would have thought that with these Top of the line Record
Calipers, and all new high grade Cables, and Housings on
board that Brake actuation should be virtually effortless?
Is it the return spring tension that would be the problem?

I can't forsee how lets say perhaps a pair of Vintage Modolo
Levers (Or Campy) would have trouble actuating a pair of the
more modern dual pivot calipers? I'm trying to learn though,
and please understand that I'm not saying you are incorrect
about this. Just want to learn the facts, and head off
possible problems that might lie ahead with this particular
frame build-up. Thank you, Mark

Quoted message said:

I used old -- very old -- campy downtube shifters with 8-
speed, no problem. The lever twists a ways around to get
to the big sprockets, but it worked fine for me. 10 speed
has the same diameter cassette, so it should work.

Quoted message said:

Well, they will work, but the new calipers require more
pull than the old ones, so you will have to adjust them
carefully to not run out of lever travel. Ergo levers
would work better, though.

Hi David, re-reading your reply, I understand now what
you are stating, in that the more modern dual pivot
calipers require more "travel" at the Brake Lever to
actuate, correct?

I also agree with your opinion, that the Campy Ergo levers
are very nice. My Bianchi has the Veloce Ergos on board. I'm
thinking though, that it doesn't make sense to have Ergo
Levers, with downtube shifters on this frame.

Quoted message said:

you said:

Well, they will work, but the new calipers require more
pull than the old

Quoted message said:

ones, so you will have to adjust them carefully to not
run out of lever travel. Ergo levers would work
better, though.

Mark said:

Hi folks, Please forgive me on my lack of knowledge of
this topic, I have a question for you all.

I'm going to be building up an NOS Paramount frame, and
have a strong desire to build this bike with nothing but
hopefully Record Components.

I'm thinking that Campy Ergo Levers are going to look
pretty stupid on this bike,

So looks are more important than function to you?

Quoted message said:

as the Paramount has Cable housing guides on the top tube.

Huh? That has nothing to do with the choice of Ergo. Most
bikes have such guides, and there's no compatibility
issue at all.

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking too there may be a cable routing problem with
an Ergo configuration on this type of frame.

Nope, that's your imagination.

Quoted message said:

I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record Downtube
shifters, but am considering perhaps a modern Campy record
hub/freewheel in 9, or 10 speed cassette. Most likely a
double chainring 39/53 in front.

My question is: "Will the old style Downtube shifters have
a problem operating through the full range of movement on
a modern day Record rear Derailleur utilizing a modern day
9, or 10 Speed Cassette?"

Maybe, but in any case friction shifting a 9- or 10-sprocket
cassette will likely be a maddening exercise, because the
lever movement will be so small. My very strong advice is to
go with Erto.

Sheldon "Cogito Ergo Ergo" Brown +-----------------------------------------
+
| A ship in the harbor is safe, but | that is not what
| ships are built for. | --John A. Shedd |
+-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery,
West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-
1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped
Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

(Mark) said:

I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record Downtube
shifters (with campy 10-speed derailleurs) but am
considering perhaps a modern Campy record hub/freewheel in
9, or 10 speed cassette. Most likely a double chainring
39/53 in front.

First of all, campy downtube levers shift just fine on a 126
mm bike, such as an old raleigh pro (have one in my garage)
- with a nuovo record mech. They would also work with a 130
mm rear spacing. On the other hand, some other types of
derailleurs such as suntour VGT have a longer "throw"
meaning you have to pull more cable to get it to go through
the full travel on the rear sprockets. For example, I ran
campy nuovo record levers with a suntour VGT, and the lever
went from almost 9 oclock to the 2 oclock position, so not
possible with this combo to put a VGT and these levers on
126 mm or 130 mm rear axle.

You could always borrow or temporarily buy some campy
downtube shifters on ebay and if they don't work, sell them
and get something fatter. fatter choices include modern ergo
barcons ( www.branfordbike.com sells a conversion kit from
canada / "LeTour" that can turn modern ergo barcons into
downtube shifters ), or get perhaps suntour ratcheting
downtube shifters with the bigger barrels.

By the way, a nice "period correct" replacement for your
campy downtube shifters would be suntour ratcheting barcon
shifters, still available as reprints from the original
molds from www.rivendell.com or from ebay all the time,
maybe slightly used.

- Don Gillies San Diego, CA

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark wrote:

(snip-a-roo)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe, but in any case friction shifting a 9- or 10-
sprocket

cassette

Quoted message said:

will likely be a maddening exercise, because the lever
movement

will be

Quoted message said:

so small. My very strong advice is to go with Erto.

Or Ergo. Or Pergo, the new system where you push the chain
from sprocket to sprocket with a wood-grain vinyl stick. I
mean really, why would anyone go friction on a 9 or 10 speed
drive train. If the OP is trying to achieve historical
accuracy, then he should use Nuovo Record, Brooks saddle,
nail-on cleats and wooly shorts. I think he can still get
Tressostar tape somewhere. I like it when it gets all
slimey, and your bars look like The Mummy. What I miss are
the open-back mesh gloves that would give you that cool tan
pattern. -- Jay Beattie.

Ouch Sheldon, That hurt! Naw, just kidding my friend, you
can slap me around anytime! lol I've lurked here awhile, and
I do know you're one of the folks who would be giving
straight up, right-on no BS advice, Thank you!

Thinking about what you have said now makes perfect sense to
me.... you are 100% right.

The only difference between a Paramount frame, and the newer
frames of today, is that on the Paramount the Rear Brake
Cable guides are at about the 11, or 12 oclock position on
the top tube, versus most modern frames having them at
around 7 oclock, and like you say, I too now agree, this
should be no compatibility problem at all with the Ergo
Cable routing from the shifters to the brake calipers,
either front, or back.

I must have been 1/2 asleep when I first posted, as I
couldn't at first visualize the Ergos working with this
older frameset. Please forgive me.

Yes. Looks are important to me as well as function, but
while we're on the subject of function, what you mention
about functionality trying to find gears in desperation with
an 8, 9, or 10 speed cassette makes perfect sense also.

Thinking now about it, I do understand what you're telling
me about just how sensitive getting a very thin chain to
track correctly on any given cog on a 8, 9, or 10 speed
cassette is. Trying to do this with friction shifters I now
clearly see would be an excersize in utter futility. I'd
have to remane the bike to "Cuss", because no doubt, that
would be all I'd be doing while riding.

Having Campy Ergos on my Bianchi, I can visualize exactly
what you're telling me. I have found that perfect
adjustment with ergos doesn't take much turning on the
cable adjusters at all.

Thanks again Sheldon for enlightening me, and helping me
come to my senses! Your advice has put me on the right
path. Mark D.

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mark said:

Hi folks, Please forgive me on my lack of knowledge of
this topic, I have a question for you all.

I'm going to be building up an NOS Paramount frame, and
have a strong desire to build this bike with nothing but
hopefully Record Components.

I'm thinking that Campy Ergo Levers are going to look
pretty stupid on this bike,

So looks are more important than function to you?

Quoted message said:

as the Paramount has Cable housing guides on the
top tube.

Huh? That has nothing to do with the choice of Ergo. Most
bikes have such guides, and there's no compatibility
issue at all.

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking too there may be a cable routing problem
with an Ergo configuration on this type of frame.

Nope, that's your imagination.

Quoted message said:

I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record
Downtube shifters, but am considering perhaps a modern
Campy record hub/freewheel in 9, or 10 speed cassette.
Most likely a double chainring 39/53 in front.

My question is: "Will the old style Downtube shifters
have a problem operating through the full range of
movement on a modern day Record rear Derailleur
utilizing a modern day 9, or 10 Speed Cassette?"

Maybe, but in any case friction shifting a 9- or 10-
sprocket cassette will likely be a maddening exercise,
because the lever movement will be so small. My very
strong advice is to go with Erto.

Sheldon "Cogito Ergo Ergo" Brown +-----------------------------------------
+
| A ship in the harbor is safe, but | that is not what
| ships are built for. | --John A. Shedd |
+-----------------------------------------+ Harris
Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX
617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Jay Beattie said:

train. If the OP is trying to achieve historical accuracy,
then he should use Nuovo Record, Brooks saddle, nail-on
cleats and wooly shorts. I think he can still get
Tressostar tape somewhere. I like it when it gets all
slimey, and your bars look like The Mummy. What I miss are
the open-back mesh gloves that would give you that cool
tan pattern. -- Jay Beattie.

I recently found real-live Tressostar tape at REI, of all
places. I don't much care for the strands flying in the
breeze, though. I do like the old-style gloves, though, "velo-
noma" and all.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | I don't believe you, you've got the whole damn
thing all wrong. _`\(,_ | He's not the kind you have to
wind-up on Sundays. --Ian Anderson (_)/ (_) |

Hi Jay, It was part of the reason I had wondered, and asked
these questions, as I was at first considering a "Somewhat"
time-correct build up at first.

The frame I speak of building up is an NOS 50th Anniversary
Paramount.

Perhaps as Sheldon has suggested, go with the new
goodies,(I'd like all Record) and never look back. Mark

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark wrote:

(snip-a-roo)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe, but in any case friction shifting a 9- or 10-
sprocket

cassette

Quoted message said:

will likely be a maddening exercise, because the lever
movement

will be

Quoted message said:

so small. My very strong advice is to go with Erto.

Or Ergo. Or Pergo, the new system where you push the chain
from sprocket to sprocket with a wood-grain vinyl stick. I
mean really, why would anyone go friction on a 9 or 10
speed drive train. If the OP is trying to achieve
historical accuracy, then he should use Nuovo Record,
Brooks saddle, nail-on cleats and wooly shorts. I think he
can still get Tressostar tape somewhere. I like it when it
gets all slimey, and your bars look like The Mummy. What I
miss are the open-back mesh gloves that would give you
that cool tan pattern. -- Jay Beattie.

Mark said:

Hi folks, Please forgive me on my lack of knowledge of
this topic, I have a question for you all.

I'm going to be building up an NOS Paramount frame, and
have a strong desire to build this bike with nothing but
hopefully Record Components.

I'm thinking that Campy Ergo Levers are going to look
pretty stupid on this bike, as the Paramount has Cable
housing guides on the top tube. I'm thinking too there may
be a cable routing problem with an Ergo configuration on
this type of frame.

I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record Downtube
shifters, but am considering perhaps a modern Campy record
hub/freewheel in 9, or 10 speed cassette. Most likely a
double chainring 39/53 in front.

My question is: "Will the old style Downtube shifters have
a problem operating through the full range of movement on
a modern day Record rear Derailleur utilizing a modern day
9, or 10 Speed Cassette?"

I know there's certainly also nothing wrong with the
older NOS Record Brake Levers, and these shouldn't be a
problem I imagine actuating the newer Campy Brake
Calipers?

I'm hoping my question doesn't come off as sounding
stupid, and I appreciate the advice of those in the "know"
about this sort of thing.

The classic 1013/1 levers are barely able to reach ten
gears. Guys have done it but you'll be at 180 degrees in low
gear and the shift is finicky in friction. If you must go
DT, get the current Ten bar con shifters and the downtube
mounting kit.

Why not just use the Ergo levers? I didn't understand your
problem with them

And classic brake levers work fine with modern brakes, both
Record DP and SP.

Really. Ride an Ergo bike. They are really nice.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:10:36 -0700, "Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

< <"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message <"]news:[email hidden]... <> Mark
wrote: < <(snip-a-roo) < <>> Maybe, but in any case
friction shifting a 9- or 10-sprocket <cassette <> will
likely be a maddening exercise, because the lever movement
<will be <> so small. My very strong advice is to go with
Erto. < <Or Ergo. Or Pergo, the new system where you push
the chain from <sprocket to sprocket with a wood-grain
vinyl stick. I mean <really, why would anyone go friction
on a 9 or 10 speed drive

I don't know, it just happened. I was upgrading parts as I
was wearing them out. Started with 7sp dt shifters. When I
needed to replace wheels, I shifted<gr> to cassette from
freewheel w a 105 8sp(9sp compatible) hub and 7sp cassette
with a spacer. I ride in winter and when the indexing would
screw up, I would go friction. So I thought it was plausible
to just get a 9 sp Ultegra casette this year and just keep
the friction. And it was, but had all thing gone according
to hoyle, I probably would have upped to 9sp ft or barcons.

Unfortunately, the story doesn't end there. I was getting
very poor front ring shifts and was generally cleaning up
the bike after the winter season a couple days back, and
there were clean cracks in the seat stays just below the
seat tube welds. A shade under 12k miles on that frame for
me, lots of it in New England winter.

That's my story and I'm

Billy Holiday 8-)

<train. If the OP is trying to achieve historical accuracy,
then <he should use Nuovo Record, Brooks saddle, nail-on
cleats and <wooly shorts. I think he can still get
Tressostar tape <somewhere. I like it when it gets all
slimey, and your bars look <like The Mummy. What I miss are
the open-back mesh gloves that <would give you that cool tan
pattern. -- Jay Beattie. < < <

Not having as much funding as you, I rebuilt a 1971 Raleigh
Pro with Athena/Chorus/Racing Triple.

The ONLY snags I encountered were finding a way to attach
down tube guides (no braze-ons) and finding a ferrule that
would work well with the small eyelet on the chain stay.
Snags weren't that serious, and it works perfectly.

[email hidden] (Mark) wrote in
news:68236fb6.0404212011.6c961a35 @posting.google.com:

Quoted message said:

Hi folks, Please forgive me on my lack of knowledge of
this topic, I have a question for you all.

I'm going to be building up an NOS Paramount frame, and
have a strong desire to build this bike with nothing but
hopefully Record Components.

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mark said:

Hi folks, Please forgive me on my lack of knowledge of
this topic, I have a question for you all.

I'm going to be building up an NOS Paramount frame, and
have a strong desire to build this bike with nothing but
hopefully Record Components.

I'm thinking that Campy Ergo Levers are going to look
pretty stupid on this bike,

So looks are more important than function to you?

It's a Paramount for goshsakes. The objective should be to
integrate form and function while adhering to the aesthetics
of the period the frame represents, which does not
necessarily mean using old components.

My recommendation is to go with all-alloy Campy, but not
Record. What I think would look out of place is carbon
components. I think that alloy colored Ergo shifters
would look just fine. Pre-2004 Chorus sounds about right
or Centaur aluminum finish. And, especially, no dark
anodized rims.

JP

(JP) said:

My recommendation is to go with all-alloy Campy, but not
Record. What I think would look out of place is carbon
components. I think that alloy colored Ergo shifters
would look just fine. Pre-2004 Chorus sounds about right
or Centaur aluminum finish. And, especially, no dark
anodized rims.

Lots of 2003 chorus cranksets are available for ~$100 now
that it is no longer made. The 2003 Chorus crankset is
aesthetically the closest one to the nuovo record crankset.
This would make a good start the build of your bike. As for
rims, Mavic silver MA3's are available and affordable and
they are pretty close to the MA2s which were one of the most
popular rims of the period.

- Don Gillies San Diego, CA