cadence for pursuit

robxs1 said:

Hi looking for some advice on the 'correct ' cadence for the pursuit,

Reason , 3-4 min intervals are infinately easier @ 90 - 95rpm ..for me..
Trying the same interval session at 110-115rpm results in atleast 20watts drop, plus recovery is much longer. Really have to focus on the high rpm.

All that ultimately matters is that the pursuit time drops, so open to anything.

Common advice is to stick with the high rpm and keep trying,,

Is this good advice?
only can get to a track 1 a month to try out gearing

Graham Obree used a 12, to do a 4.24 @ 98 rpm?
Most hour records do amazingly fast 4km @100rpm
Some women at the olympics were using big gears @ <110rpm any reason for this?

Well, if you're looking for "easier" then perhaps pursuit is not for you. 🙂 OTOH, if you're looking for "faster" then my unexperienced advice is for you to get in a pursuit match and see what cadence an adrenaline rush "self-selects" for you. Not much of an advice I know especially when you have to select your gear beforehand. Like I said, I'm inexperienced. :o

A wise man told me once, the key to going fast is to spin big gears. Darned if he wasn't right.

Ride whatever gear makes you faster. But remember, you have to accelerate that same gear from a standing start, so make sure any gains at cruising pace over ride any losses at the start (both in terms of time and/or effort required to get the gear going).

robxs1 said:

Hi looking for some advice on the 'correct ' cadence for the pursuit,

Reason , 3-4 min intervals are infinately easier @ 90 - 95rpm ..for me..
Trying the same interval session at 110-115rpm results in atleast 20watts drop, plus recovery is much longer. Really have to focus on the high rpm.

All that ultimately matters is that the pursuit time drops, so open to anything.

Common advice is to stick with the high rpm and keep trying,,

Is this good advice?
only can get to a track 1 a month to try out gearing

Graham Obree used a 12, to do a 4.24 @ 98 rpm?
Most hour records do amazingly fast 4km @100rpm
Some women at the olympics were using big gears @ <110rpm any reason for this?

How long have you been racing? In a race, all that counts is that you get the best result you can - figure out what works best for you at this particular point in time.

Test every couple of months and find out if anything has changed.

Once you've found an optimum rpm and if you're not a fast pedaller, then consider training at a slightly higher rpm - no more than 5rpm more and see after a few months that's working out for you. Just because the World Champion spins his legs like beeswings, doesn't mean that you have to and like the rest of us, you probably won't be able to.

Good luck.

swampy1970 said:

How long have you been racing? In a race, all that counts is that you get the best result you can - figure out what works best for you at this particular point in time.

Test every couple of months and find out if anything has changed.

Once you've found an optimum rpm and if you're not a fast pedaller, then consider training at a slightly higher rpm - no more than 5rpm more and see after a few months that's working out for you. Just because the World Champion spins his legs like beeswings, doesn't mean that you have to and like the rest of us, you probably won't be able to.

Good luck.

Wow tahnks for the replys,
been racing a while now, probably near the end , but like the track as its warmer !
ranked top 50 for the IM pursuit so I know there is a bit tallent there but as there is no track in my contry its hard to try out new tactics and gears,

In TTs have always gone faster in a bigger gear but understand u need to wind it up first on the track without loosing much time or getting the legs full of lactate.

gonig to go with the advice of gearing for about 5rpm faster than what is comfortable on the turbo trainer. Previously I would ride the pursuit at 110rpm, and notice the power would be 60-70w lower than what I can comfortably do a 4min on the trainer(i know there is a start involved) .

Does anyone have power figures for the pursuit, I hear 7.7W/Kg being used for a 4.14, also McGee mentioning you need 550w for the event. does this include the spike at the start? or is that 550W steady state for 3.5 min? ouch

How fast have you done your 4K this far and w/ what gearing. Was it outdoor or indoor? Are you targeting for outdoor or indoor when doing your best.

Outdoor you could benefit from smaller gearing if day is even slightly windy. Indoor of course opposite thing. If we leave top athletes out, you must analyse yourself if you're a spinner or power masher. It's possible to spin 4.20, is it fast? (not me..) It may be fast or slow, I think it's fast for many of us.

Takeoff is typically 1000-1100 w and good overall around 500 w.

Alex Simmons said:

Ride whatever gear makes you faster. But remember, you have to accelerate that same gear from a standing start, so make sure any gains at cruising pace over ride any losses at the start (both in terms of time and/or effort required to get the gear going).

Exactly. A short pursuit will be best in a small gear because you've got to get away quickly and into your rhythm. Time spent getting on top of the gear is time wasted, and especially on a short track you give your opponent a huge advantage if he can take a chunk of time out of you in the opening 2 laps. On a steep track you're going to be limited in crank size as well, which is going to suit a shorter gear and higher rev's.

rob of the og said:

Exactly. A short pursuit will be best in a small gear because you've got to get away quickly and into your rhythm. Time spent getting on top of the gear is time wasted, and especially on a short track you give your opponent a huge advantage if he can take a chunk of time out of you in the opening 2 laps. On a steep track you're going to be limited in crank size as well, which is going to suit a shorter gear and higher rev's.

Yes, although one doesn't want to undergear either.

The best thing is to simply get on track and ride, experiment with what feels good.

As for power demand, well that really depends on how fast you want to be and how slippery you are through the air. Good aerodynamics is very important in IP.

As for crank length, it would have to be an exceptionally steep track for that to be a problem in a pursuit. I have seen riders using 185 cranks on Dunc Gray Velodrome (indoor 250m, 42 degree banks) no problems. It's not like you are moving up/down the track during a pursuit as in a mass start race. Perhaps on those very tight 50+ degree tracks there's a problem.😄 Main issue with crank length is what happens to a rider's position and can they still produce the power with the tighter hip-torso angle created when using longer cranks.

I love pursuit stuff, it's a great event. I've just come from the track tonight, I am coaching our Team Pursuit squads.

RHR38 said:

How fast have you done your 4K this far and w/ what gearing. Was it outdoor or indoor? Are you targeting for outdoor or indoor when doing your best.

Outdoor you could benefit from smaller gearing if day is even slightly windy. Indoor of course opposite thing. If we leave top athletes out, you must analyse yourself if you're a spinner or power masher. It's possible to spin 4.20, is it fast? (not me..) It may be fast or slow, I think it's fast for many of us.

Takeoff is typically 1000-1100 w and good overall around 500 w.

All my pursuits have been indoor on good tracks, with a best time of 4.41. @ 110 rpm on a 97" gear 53x14 on track tubs. 110 feels fast for me. My advisor tells me to get use to it as all the fastest times are done @115+rpm.
I dont want to be waisting my time at lower revs if science tells me to rev faster to put out bigger watts.
500W may be possible with a gun against my head @ 100rpm but at 110,, 2.5 minutes would be possible. percieved effort would be much greater. Repeatability would be greatly reduced.

Alex Simmons said:

Yes, although one doesn't want to undergear either.

The best thing is to simply get on track and ride, experiment with what feels good.

As for power demand, well that really depends on how fast you want to be and how slippery you are through the air. Good aerodynamics is very important in IP.

As for crank length, it would have to be an exceptionally steep track for that to be a problem in a pursuit. I have seen riders using 185 cranks on Dunc Gray Velodrome (indoor 250m, 42 degree banks) no problems. It's not like you are moving up/down the track during a pursuit as in a mass start race. Perhaps on those very tight 50+ degree tracks there's a problem.😄 Main issue with crank length is what happens to a rider's position and can they still produce the power with the tighter hip-torso angle created when using longer cranks.

I love pursuit stuff, it's a great event. I've just come from the track tonight, I am coaching our Team Pursuit squads.

I have noticed alot of riders reciently raising their position , have looked at pictures of Wiggens, at Athens with very little spacers on his bars, now he has about 30cm ! exageration.. but the tops of his sholders were rounded forward, not they are level with his back, www.grahamwatson.com has photos. perhaps he is more aero now that before, its hard to tell what is right with aero..

I have noticed a too flat position (TT position) leads to a huge drop in power for the pursuit, probably this femor-torso angle problem. Most of the NZ team seam to be high at the front too. Incidently my easiest percieved flying 3km effort was with a high front and with shoulders level with back(as in high elbow rest position). no power reading to back this up. and time was off due bad chain line(dont ask).

I will invest in cranks (SRM are 172.5 & standard are 175s) I have heard the german TP using 180s but 185s, wow, I surpose make that gear easy as possible to turn..long cranks make leg speed increase? but gear up to compensate?

TP is alot of fun to coach, have been on a team and done a 4.19. The high cadance in a TP seems much easies as its only 15sec on then 30sec rest!...the second guy aint resting!!

from a blog Simon Jones commented there is no point pedeling fast unless you are putting out the watts! this is probably out of context as he may mean 115 is pedeling slow.

Will try 180s with a 100" gear next trip on 2nd Feb and try not to leave everything on the start line!

.
just an update,

Tried 2 combinations of gears 97" and 101"
97" poduced fastest time because I have not done any starts in 4 months, too cold out.
1stkm was a terrible 1.16, (went hard)never got up to speed in the first 180m and then 'took it easy' for 2 laps before settling in.
1.16, 1.10, 1.09 1,10

flying500m 32.2, I am no sprinter,

No srm figures for the day. MAP>27w, 4min avg >30w ,20min > 30W. 16km TT on cold day with lots of clothes on 17sec of pb time.

Advice from the track was to go motor pacing at target speed. ie 54kmph

You can get your condition for 4K from road racing if you work hard (long attacks, small group escape aso).

Just pacing moto is too easy, do it points racing style like 50 kmh fixed speed then you attack all out for 1 round and pull up, ease a bit to wait for moto to get you, moto does not ease and as it goes by you dive behind it and sit there 2 laps and attack again and keep repeating this till you're toasted.

More flying 500's and 1K's with good recovery between them is good too. You can not reach good 4K if you can not do fast splits.

robxs1 said:

Wow tahnks for the replys,
been racing a while now, probably near the end , but like the track as its warmer !
ranked top 50 for the IM pursuit so I know there is a bit tallent there but as there is no track in my contry its hard to try out new tactics and gears,

In TTs have always gone faster in a bigger gear but understand u need to wind it up first on the track without loosing much time or getting the legs full of lactate.

gonig to go with the advice of gearing for about 5rpm faster than what is comfortable on the turbo trainer. Previously I would ride the pursuit at 110rpm, and notice the power would be 60-70w lower than what I can comfortably do a 4min on the trainer(i know there is a start involved) .

Does anyone have power figures for the pursuit, I hear 7.7W/Kg being used for a 4.14, also McGee mentioning you need 550w for the event. does this include the spike at the start? or is that 550W steady state for 3.5 min? ouch

For his world record, it's been calculated that Boardman put out an average of 520watts. Given that he's knee high to a grasshopper and has an excellent aero position then for someone of average size you'd be looking at way over 550watts for a 4.14.

RHR38 said:

You can get your condition for 4K from road racing if you work hard (long attacks, small group escape aso).

Just pacing moto is too easy, do it points racing style like 50 kmh fixed speed then you attack all out for 1 round and pull up, ease a bit to wait for moto to get you, moto does not ease and as it goes by you dive behind it and sit there 2 laps and attack again and keep repeating this till you're toasted.

More flying 500's and 1K's with good recovery between them is good too. You can not reach good 4K if you can not do fast splits.

Begining to realise the good advice on the fast splits!!
I have always been a fast 16kmTT rider who maybe has been lucky in the pursuit.
mostly focus on 3min - 20min intervals, event being 85% aerobic etc.

going to spend the next few weeks aiming for the 1km...& small amount of maintaining V02 . T.Phenney must be doing something right if he can do a 1.01KM

robxs1 said:

Begining to realise the good advice on the fast splits!!
I have always been a fast 16kmTT rider...

How fast?

19.45,@395w have a big engine, perhaps should be doing the scratch race,

Good engine.. 😄

I'd say you clearly need flying 1 K's. Aerodynamics (= equipment, position) also means mountains. Try to find right first K, as you know it ruins pretty much everything if too hard. Of course it must be fast :p

RHR38 said:

Good engine.. 😄

I'd say you clearly need flying 1 K's. Aerodynamics (= equipment, position) also means mountains. Try to find right first K, as you know it ruins pretty much everything if too hard. Of course it must be fast :p

Thanks , I think I am zeroing in on the problem,
A) A.coogan suggests (WKO pusuit profile)~10w/kg for 1 min about 700W ie lots of flying 1kms &500's
b) test today 450W 4min' easy @88rpm , 400w was just possible @117rpm ??