Cable locks versus u-locks

In some late discussion, people have been advocating chains and u-locks in
conjunction. Both of these can be defeated with bolt cutters. I have
always been of the opinion that u-locks plus a cable lock is better because
the bolt cutters rarely cut the cable locks well... the strands tend to
smash flat instead of cutting cleanly. A rotary tool might be better used
on the cable lock.

Are chains really any better than a cable lock when either is used with a
u-lock?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:AZQTe.11438$Cc5.9829@lakeread06...

Quoted message said:

In some late discussion, people have been advocating chains and u-locks in
conjunction. Both of these can be defeated with bolt cutters. I have
always been of the opinion that u-locks plus a cable lock is better because
the bolt cutters rarely cut the cable locks well... the strands tend to
smash flat instead of cutting cleanly. A rotary tool might be better used
on the cable lock.

Are chains really any better than a cable lock when either is used with a
u-lock?

You are entirely correct in your assumptions, in my humble opinion. Chains are
easier to cut than cables, using either a bolt cutter or a metal cutting hand
saw and a vise grips. U-locks a half inch in diameter are beyond the abilities
of the typical bicycle thief. It's possible to cut a 1/4" shackle on a padlock
with an 18" double action bolt cutter, but you'll need to resharpen and adjust
the jaws to cut another one. I suppose it is possible to cut a 1/2" U-bolt with
a 4' bolt cutter, if the culprit is particularly strong. A 6' cutter may be
feasible for most people, but they'll need to resharpen and adjust the jaws to
cut another one.

Cutting a typical chain is a snap. Most are well under 1/4" in diameter, so a
bolt cutter can do a few before it needs sharpening and adjustment. Metal
cutting blades for hand saws are under a couple bucks. Once the chain is cut, a
vise grips and big screwriver serve to open the gap far enough extract the link.

Cutting a 1/4' cable is a big deal with either the vise grips and bolt cutter or
metal cutting hand saw. The flexibility of the cable makes it quite a job. The
Home Depot has 3/8" x 8' cables. Could be cut with a brand new 3' bolt cutter
in the >$50 range, but they'll need new jaws for the next one. Might also
permanently deform the the cutter. If they wanted to do that much work, they'd
get a job.

I suspect that the people behind most bicycle thefts are not our fellow riders,
but those who resent bicyclists. They pay some juvenilles a few bucks per
bicycle stolen, just to reduce the number of bicyclists on the streets. The
juves go down the street in a pickup truck looking for the easy pickings.

The U-lock can hold the frame and rear wheel, but you need a cable to get the
front. Your bicycle is in the greatest danger on your most frequent rides,
where resentful people build up animosity towards you, and may decide to buy the
kids a 6' bolt cutter to get you off the streets.

Bill Henry said:

By the way, has anyone ever had a locked bike stolen or know of someone
who has? I would guess that unless your bike is REALLY valuable to a
thief, they'll go after the unlocked bikes first.

Someone stole my bike in July in Toronto. I had locked it to a post
outside a fast food joint and was only inside for 5 minutes. The lock
was a Kryptonite pad lock and cable. I found the pieces on the
sidewalk.
I'm the luckiest guy I know. 3 weeks later and 5 miles away I found my
bike locked to a post. I got the bike back and learned the guy had
bought it (Cannondale M800 for $80) from a crackhead 'flea market' 5
blocks from where it was stolen.
Now I double lock it where ever I go. I put a MEC Ulock on the front
wheel and frame and a Stocks Ulock on the rear wheel/frame/post. I hope
the crackheads aren't carrying around the right equipment to defeat
that.
I can't believe the theory that bike haters hire kids to steal bikes
just to get them off the road. No one hates bikes as much as others
just simply love that tasty tasty crack.

Cam

Squid-in-Training said:

In some late discussion, people have been advocating chains and u-locks in
conjunction. Both of these can be defeated with bolt cutters. I have
always been of the opinion that u-locks plus a cable lock is better because
the bolt cutters rarely cut the cable locks well... the strands tend to
smash flat instead of cutting cleanly. A rotary tool might be better used
on the cable lock.

Are chains really any better than a cable lock when either is used with a
u-lock?

Any cable lock can be defeated by a cable cutter that is much less
conspicuous (and far cheaper) than a bolt cutter, and many U-locks
will resist a bolt cutter quite effectively. I have yet to find a
cable lock that my Park brake cable cutter wouldn't just slice right
through in one stroke. (I get bikes from the police impound auctions
with cable locks on them quite often, and those locks are never the
least bit of trouble to remove.)

The principal attack used against good U-locks isn't a bolt cutter,
anyway; it's a piece of pipe or a long bar used as a lever to twist
the lock until it breaks. (This does not take into account the ball
point pen barrel attack which works on many tubular-key locks.) The
long-lever attack is usually ineffective against a chain, where a bolt
cutter is the preferred method. Hardened chains capable of resisting
most bolt cutters are available. If a thief is equipped with a power
saw, then the bike is gone, period; there is no defense against this
available from common sources.

All of that said, the reasoning behind the U-plus-cable paradigm is
that a good U-lock provides reasonable resistance to attacks by force,
and the cable secures the wheels against casual opportunistic theft.
My own preference is two U-locks of the NYC grade, but a cheap bike
costs less than two of those locks. New York messengers prefer the
security of a heavy hardened chain and a really good padlock, and they
know that even this may not be enough; the limiting factor in that
case may be the fixed object to which the bike is secured.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
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Dale Benjamin said:

Cutting a 1/4' cable is a big deal with either the vise grips and bolt cutter or
metal cutting hand saw. The flexibility of the cable makes it quite a job.

That's the wrong tool for the job.

A few months back, the Rice University police caught a bike thief in
the act of making off with his latest grab. What was in his pocket?
A pair of bike cable cutters - not a bolt cutter - and a selection of
ball point pens. I can attest that the Park cable cutter has sliced
through every cable lock I've encountered on police impound auction
bikes, never requiring more than a single stroke and not even needing
much hand pressure. Cables are by far the easiest things to defeat,
and the bike shop sells the tool to do it. It will even cut larger
cables using several bites, but cables sold for bike locks are almost
always in the one-slice category.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
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Jasper Janssen said:

The Dutch cy cling union hired a reformed thief a few years ago to show
them how it was done. U-locks, all but the very best, chains, all but the
very best, *all* cables, all were in the 30 second range.

The real key is not the lock but the rack. There are several
manufacturers who make racks consisting of two large steel horizontal
arms with steel projections, the arms closing around the bike, the
projections going through the wheels and main triangle. You then use
only a padlock to lock the two arms together, inside a shielded housing
that can only be accessed from the bottom, near ground level, or else a
U-lock to keep the two arms together. You need only carry a reasonable
padlock for very high security. These should be standard all over the
place, ESPECIALLY on ALL college campuses. There is no excuse.

Furthermore, what's necessary is to make bicycle theft the same crime
as auto theft, and to install video surveillance at key locations, to
mop up the organized crime gangs who are responsible for so much of it.

There IS a solution and like so much else it just involves a few people
in the right places getting off their asses.î

Jasper Janssen said:

The Dutch cy cling union hired a reformed thief a few years ago to show
them how it was done. U-locks, all but the very best, chains, all but the
very best, *all* cables, all were in the 30 second range.

The real key is not the lock but the rack. There are several
manufacturers who make racks consisting of two large steel horizontal
arms with steel projections, the arms closing around the bike, the
projections going through the wheels and main triangle. You then use
only a padlock to lock the two arms together, inside a shielded housing
that can only be accessed from the bottom, near ground level, or else a
U-lock to keep the two arms together. You need only carry a reasonable
padlock for very high security. These should be standard all over the
place, ESPECIALLY on ALL college campuses. There is no excuse.

Furthermore, what's necessary is to make bicycle theft the same crime
as auto theft, and to install video surveillance at key locations, to
mop up the organized crime gangs who are responsible for so much of it.

There IS a solution and like so much else it just involves a few people
in the right places getting off their asses.î

(PeteCresswell) said:

Per Bill Henry:

Quoted message said:

By the way, has anyone ever had a locked bike stolen or know of someone
who has? I would guess that unless your bike is REALLY valuable to a
thief, they'll go after the unlocked bikes first.

Downtown Philadelphia has plenty of bare frames locked to various posts/parking
meters. Dunno the genesis... but they're there.

Frame secured by a lock. Wheels secured by a QR. Wheels leave with
next passing opportunistic thief. Two decent wheels probably fetch
five bucks from a fence.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
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Cam said:

I'm the luckiest guy I know. 3 weeks later and 5 miles away I found my
bike locked to a post. I got the bike back and learned the guy had
bought it (Cannondale M800 for $80) from a crackhead 'flea market' 5
blocks from where it was stolen.

How did you get it back?

Jasper

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:30:51 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I think any test would have to involve a skilled bike thief. Otherwise all
we're testing is an uninformed person's view of how locks should be defeated.

Personally, I used to secure my bike with a nico-pressed stainless-steel cable
about 1/2" in diameter and a humongous padlock. Lost the key one day. Went
back into work, borrowed a set of diagonal cutting pliers. Took me all of 15
minutes to cut through the cable strand-by-strand.

The articles I've seen written after interviewing (former or current) bike
thieves do in fact mention that method, for desperate people, but a good
tool like a pro bike thief will have will cut through almost any bike
cable like a shot. Also, most bike cables are more plastic and rope[1]
than steel, so from the outside they look fat, but they really aren't.

Cables are the worst kind of lock to use, except for cheap chains and
such. My heavy duty, rarely used lock is a chain with shackles of 7 mm
square steel, hardened throughout and not just on the surface, with a lock
not vulnerable like a regular padlock is. It weighs several kilos.

Jasper

[1] Yes, rope. Often used as the core with a layer of steel wire around
it.

Watch this short quick time movie to be entertained and to be alarmed.
Enjoy!
http://tinyurl.com/5mem2

Jasper Janssen said:

Cam said:

I'm the luckiest guy I know. 3 weeks later and 5 miles away I found my
bike locked to a post. I got the bike back and learned the guy had
bought it (Cannondale M800 for $80) from a crackhead 'flea market' 5
blocks from where it was stolen.

How did you get it back?

Jasper

We could still read the serial number underneath the coat of orange
Rustoleum (my paint job, not the new guy's)

Cam

Cam said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Cam said:

I'm the luckiest guy I know. 3 weeks later and 5 miles away I found my
bike locked to a post. I got the bike back and learned the guy had
bought it (Cannondale M800 for $80) from a crackhead 'flea market' 5
blocks from where it was stolen.

How did you get it back?

Jasper

We could still read the serial number underneath the coat of orange
Rustoleum (my paint job, not the new guy's)

Did he just give the bike back to you? He had $80 into the thing, and
some people wouldn't be willing to give up their $80 easily.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Per Bill Henry:

Quoted message said:

By the way, has anyone ever had a locked bike stolen or know of someone
who has? I would guess that unless your bike is REALLY valuable to a
thief, they'll go after the unlocked bikes first.

Downtown Philadelphia has plenty of bare frames locked to various posts/parking
meters. Dunno the genesis... but they're there.
--
PeteCresswell

Per Dale Benjamin:

Quoted message said:

Cutting a 1/4' cable is a big deal with either the vise grips and bolt cutter or
metal cutting hand saw.

I think any test would have to involve a skilled bike thief. Otherwise all
we're testing is an uninformed person's view of how locks should be defeated.

Personally, I used to secure my bike with a nico-pressed stainless-steel cable
about 1/2" in diameter and a humongous padlock. Lost the key one day. Went
back into work, borrowed a set of diagonal cutting pliers. Took me all of 15
minutes to cut through the cable strand-by-strand.
--
PeteCresswell

41 said:

The real key is not the lock but the rack. There are several
manufacturers who make racks consisting of two large steel horizontal
arms with steel projections, the arms closing around the bike, the
projections going through the wheels and main triangle. You then use
only a padlock to lock the two arms together, inside a shielded housing
that can only be accessed from the bottom, near ground level, or else a
U-lock to keep the two arms together. You need only carry a reasonable
padlock for very high security. These should be standard all over the
place, ESPECIALLY on ALL college campuses. There is no excuse.

Sounds good in theory, but good luck convincing colleges to spend money
on student bike safety. They'd probably prefer the kids not ride a bike
at all and just pay the usual exorbitant rates for parking stickers.

dvt said:

Cam said:

Jasper Janssen said:

On 8 Sep 2005 06:16:04 -0700, "Cam" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>I'm the luckiest guy I know. 3 weeks later and 5 miles away I found my
>bike locked to a post. I got the bike back and learned the guy had
>bought it (Cannondale M800 for $80) from a crackhead 'flea market' 5
>blocks from where it was stolen.

How did you get it back?

Jasper

We could still read the serial number underneath the coat of orange
Rustoleum (my paint job, not the new guy's)

Did he just give the bike back to you? He had $80 into the thing, and
some people wouldn't be willing to give up their $80 easily.

He would have had to just give it back if I could have found the serial
number while the cops were still there. Paying him the $80 (and
remembering where the # was) seemed easier after they were gone.
The morals of the story are 1) keep looking for your bike if it is
stolen 2) keep a record of the serial number 3) make note of where the
# is on the bike 4) don't let them steal it in the first place because
even if you get it back you're in for some heartache while it's gone.

Cam

Bill Henry said:

41 said:

The real key is not the lock but the rack. There are several
manufacturers who make racks consisting of two large steel horizontal
arms with steel projections, the arms closing around the bike, the
projections going through the wheels and main triangle. You then use
only a padlock to lock the two arms together, inside a shielded housing
that can only be accessed from the bottom, near ground level, or else a
U-lock to keep the two arms together. You need only carry a reasonable
padlock for very high security. These should be standard all over the
place, ESPECIALLY on ALL college campuses. There is no excuse.

Sounds good in theory, but good luck convincing colleges to spend money
on student bike safety. They'd probably prefer the kids not ride a bike
at all and just pay the usual exorbitant rates for parking stickers.

GA Tech already spends money on bike safety/security. They tell all
students to use U-locks and how to properly lock the bikes.

...now only if they'd tell them to stop riding at walking speed on the
damn sidewalks FULL of pedestrians.

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the words to numbers
if you want to reply to me:.

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dale Benjamin said:

Cutting a 1/4' cable is a big deal with either the vise grips and bolt

cutter or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

metal cutting hand saw. The flexibility of the cable makes it quite a

job.

Quoted message said:

That's the wrong tool for the job.

A few months back, the Rice University police caught a bike thief in
the act of making off with his latest grab. What was in his pocket?
A pair of bike cable cutters - not a bolt cutter - and a selection of
ball point pens. I can attest that the Park cable cutter has sliced
through every cable lock I've encountered on police impound auction
bikes, never requiring more than a single stroke and not even needing
much hand pressure. Cables are by far the easiest things to defeat,
and the bike shop sells the tool to do it. It will even cut larger
cables using several bites, but cables sold for bike locks are almost
always in the one-slice category.

Concur -- bolt cutters don't cut cable very well, but readily available cable
cutters do. Also, even the best chain and steel stock will yield to a power
side grinder with an abrasive cutting wheel -- and batteries now make such
power tools as portable as the locks that cyclists depend upon to secure
their bicycles. (Thieves know this, cyclists should too.)

Powered cutting, on the other hand, makes a lot of noise (and sparks) that
may deter thieves as it alerts people in proximity to the crime in progress.
Thus, maximal bicycle security depends not only on good locks, but also upon
a good human presence around the locked bicycle. Else, security must depend
upon non-portable locking systems. (See suggestion elsewhere in this thread
for improved bike racks on college campuses, for example.)

Regarding the ease at which cables are defeated, I'm wondering how well the
armored cables fare. One I've started using is the Onguard Rottweiler 4'
Armored Lock (vinyl-covered armored cable, 1 inch thick, model 5024). It's a
bit heavy (4.5 lbs) but lighter than a comparable chain (9.5 lbs) and more
versatile than a U-lock. The manufacturer cites a four-star security rating
for the device... www.onguardlock.com ...

Anyway, any comments about vulnerabilities of *armored* cable bike locks?

--
Mykal Crooks
Seattle, WA