buying bikes from the web

mr p said the following on 03/10/2006 10:02:

Quoted message said:

Whereas the MTB has had a harder year, I was wandering have I been
unlucky with this bike or is this a normal level of faults ? is it a
case of the dealer not having done his job of checking things before
dispatching ? What should you normally expect a dealer to check ?

This is not a normal level of faults! I've only bought one bike from
the web (from a LBS, just not my LBS!), and I took the view even before
delivery that I would need to check it over very carefully before riding
it. In fact, it was set up very well as delivered. I would expect any
LBS to check all the of the things you mentioned, but really anyone
selling a boxed bike by mail order is doing it the cheap way - I bet you
paid a lot less than buying from your LBS - so you should expect to have
to check it over yourself. You could of course get your LBS to check it
over, by which time you will have paid the same amount as buying it from
them in the first place - that's the moral!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

in message <[email hidden]>, mr p

(') said:

I bought two bikes this time last year from two different web sites.
Whereas the Felt F70 I got has been great ( from JE James ) I have had
various problems with the Claude Butler Cape Wrath disk MTB I got from
cyclesmart.co.uk, although very pleased in general with the bike , it
has had a fair few prpoblems.

Various things have gone wrong in 1100 miles or so of use .. ( mostly
road/ gravel tracks )

The Cape Wrath is a bike with a generally very good reputation; I'm
surprised at this level of problem.

Quoted message said:

- supplied tyres lasted about 1 month, both were warped and got holes
in them

OK, I don't understand what you're saying. In what way were they 'warped'
and how did they get holes in?

Quoted message said:

- derailures not adjusted.. nice touch that.

-The chain snapped and had to be replaced, sent under warranty..
although I don't think it was the correct 9 speed chain. It now seems
to have worn beyond use.

On a mountain bike used as a mountain bike, wearing out a chain in one year
is not at all surprising; getting through two or three chains a year is
quite common. If, however, you've been using it only on roads and well
made tracks, it sounds as if you haven't been cleaning it and lubricating
it often enough. If you're using a bike as a mountain bike you should
clean and relube the chain after every ride; if just as a pootling bike
then probably once every couple of hundred miles.

Quoted message said:

- the rear brake caliper mounting bolts were not tightened up ( one
fell out and had to be replaced !) which I though was rather dangerous.

Extremely!

Quoted message said:

- several of the front wheels spokes have come very loose ( since
tightened ) and wheel is now not particularly straight

- rear cassette now has about 4mm of play in it.. I am waiting to get a
locknut tool to see exactly what is worn or if the nut is not tightened
correctly ( which would not be a suprise really ) These cost £50 quid
to replaced, I hope it's not what's causing my chain slip problems!

OK, there's an interaction here between the cassette, the rear derailleur
and the chain. If the cassette has play, then the derailleur can't be
properly adjusted. Damage to the chain causes damage to the cassette and
vice versa. You should replace both together.

Quoted message said:

Whereas the MTB has had a harder year, I was wandering have I been
unlucky with this bike or is this a normal level of faults ? is it a
case of the dealer not having done his job of checking things before
dispatching ? What should you normally expect a dealer to check ?

It's normal on a bike for things to work loose in the first few weeks, even
if they were tight on delivery. Things bed in when they're first stressed;
that's natural. That's why all good local bike shops offer a free service
after the first six weeks. Of course this is especially true of mountain
bikes, which typically experience far higher stresses than road bikes.

I would expect everything to be tight and well adjusted on delivery, but I
would expect a few things - gears in particular, but bolts as well - to
require checking and readjustment after the 'run in' period.

Quoted message said:

JE James seem very good in comparison, I think they actually did a
'pre delivery inspection' and set things up which has made all the
difference.

I would expect any supplier to do that- if cyclesmart didn't, then that was
irresponsible.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

For office use only. Please do not write or type below this line.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, mr p

(') said:

I bought two bikes this time last year from two different web sites.
Whereas the Felt F70 I got has been great ( from JE James ) I have had
various problems with the Claude Butler Cape Wrath disk MTB I got from
cyclesmart.co.uk, although very pleased in general with the bike , it
has had a fair few prpoblems.

Various things have gone wrong in 1100 miles or so of use .. ( mostly
road/ gravel tracks )

The Cape Wrath is a bike with a generally very good reputation; I'm
surprised at this level of problem.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good bike but not quite as durable as I'd
hoped.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- supplied tyres lasted about 1 month, both were warped and got holes
in them

OK, I don't understand what you're saying. In what way were they 'warped'
and how did they get holes in?

when inflated to the indicated pressure they had bulges and uneven
running that caused the tyre to wear a whole. not a problem on the
Halfords replacements.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- derailures not adjusted.. nice touch that.

-The chain snapped and had to be replaced, sent under warranty..
although I don't think it was the correct 9 speed chain. It now seems
to have worn beyond use.

On a mountain bike used as a mountain bike, wearing out a chain in one year
is not at all surprising; getting through two or three chains a year is
quite common. If, however, you've been using it only on roads and well
made tracks, it sounds as if you haven't been cleaning it and lubricating
it often enough. If you're using a bike as a mountain bike you should
clean and relube the chain after every ride; if just as a pootling bike
then probably once every couple of hundred miles.

I've oiled but never cleaned the chain, maybe this is part of my
problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- the rear brake caliper mounting bolts were not tightened up ( one
fell out and had to be replaced !) which I though was rather dangerous.

Extremely!

Quoted message said:

- several of the front wheels spokes have come very loose ( since
tightened ) and wheel is now not particularly straight

- rear cassette now has about 4mm of play in it.. I am waiting to get a
locknut tool to see exactly what is worn or if the nut is not tightened
correctly ( which would not be a suprise really ) These cost £50 quid
to replaced, I hope it's not what's causing my chain slip problems!

OK, there's an interaction here between the cassette, the rear derailleur
and the chain. If the cassette has play, then the derailleur can't be
properly adjusted. Damage to the chain causes damage to the cassette and
vice versa. You should replace both together.

The cost of the cassette and parts in general seems ridiculous in
comparison to the cost of the bike though ! I am starting to wander if
I might as well save 50 quid off the cost of this years model, and keep
this as a 2nd bike.. but that's just me I guess . I need to find out if
the slack is in the free hub bearings or the splines where the cassette
slides on, I can't really tell at the moment. And all the time the bike
is sat there out of use ! Grrrr...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Whereas the MTB has had a harder year, I was wandering have I been
unlucky with this bike or is this a normal level of faults ? is it a
case of the dealer not having done his job of checking things before
dispatching ? What should you normally expect a dealer to check ?

It's normal on a bike for things to work loose in the first few weeks, even
if they were tight on delivery. Things bed in when they're first stressed;
that's natural. That's why all good local bike shops offer a free service
after the first six weeks. Of course this is especially true of mountain
bikes, which typically experience far higher stresses than road bikes.

I would expect everything to be tight and well adjusted on delivery, but I
would expect a few things - gears in particular, but bolts as well - to
require checking and readjustment after the 'run in' period.

which is what happened in my case I suppose.. I will definiatly check
over thinngs more carefully in future!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

JE James seem very good in comparison, I think they actually did a
'pre delivery inspection' and set things up which has made all the
difference.

I would expect any supplier to do that- if cyclesmart didn't, then that was
irresponsible.

I would expect nuts/ bolts detailures to be tightened / adjusted which
they were probably not. I'm not saying they are a bad supplier ( might
use again ) but I am sceptical that they did much in the way of a PDI
.. I don't see how caliper bolts can wear in, they should be tightened
to the correct torq in the factory presumably.

mr p said:

I've oiled but never cleaned the chain, maybe this is part of my
problem.

Maybe... if you /just/ oil it then you've got a good cover of tacky goop
which will let any crunge that it comes into contact with it stick,
which in turn will tend to cause wear.

After oiling it's a Cunning Plan to wipe off any excess oil from the
chain surface. The important stuff is on the inside of the link joints,
you'll wipe off very little *useful* oil doing this.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said the following on 03/10/2006 11:41:

Quoted message said:

Maybe... if you /just/ oil it then you've got a good cover of tacky goop
which will let any crunge that it comes into contact with it stick,
which in turn will tend to cause wear.

This is where I'll start the "the best oil is...." thread, but I use the
ProGold stuff from Wiggle, or some LBSs. This is a cleaner as well -
the way I use it is to apply it liberally so that all the existing muck
runs off, wipe the chain over with a load of kitchen towel to get off
even more, then re-apply the lube, making sure that it goes into each
and every joint. I do all this after every muddy or dusty MTB ride.

Every so often I also pop the chain into a half-full bottle of white
spirit, give it a good shake and swirl, then re-lube once it's
thoroughly dried out. (I think it was Simon Brooke who led me to that one.)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Paul Boyd wrote on 03/10/2006 12:09 +0100:

Quoted message said:

This is where I'll start the "the best oil is...." thread, but I use the
ProGold stuff from Wiggle, or some LBSs. This is a cleaner as well -
the way I use it is to apply it liberally so that all the existing muck
runs off, wipe the chain over with a load of kitchen towel to get off
even more, then re-apply the lube, making sure that it goes into each
and every joint. I do all this after every muddy or dusty MTB ride.

ProGold is good stuff but sloshing it all over the chain is a waste -
you can drip it onto the edge of the rollers so it wicks inside to where
it is needed. Putting it on a dirty or dusty chain is also a bad idea:
it just washes the dirt from the outside where its harmless to the
inside where it does all the damage.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Quoted message said:

Whereas the MTB has had a harder year, I was wandering have I been
unlucky with this bike or is this a normal level of faults ? is it a
case of the dealer not having done his job of checking things before
dispatching ?

Seems to be partly cheapo components on the bike (e.g. the tyres) coupled
with standard problems (factory built wheels often need a bit of tweaking
by hand, which they don't get) and the bike not being set up.

Quoted message said:

What should you normally expect a dealer to check ?

I'd expect a LBS or similar to check the bike thorougly and send it out in
perfect condition. I'd also expect them to give the bike a once over for
free after a bit of use and to adjust gearing etc for 'cable stretch'.

Over the internet, that really depends on whether it's bought from an
internet Local Bike Shop or just a box shifter - I wouldn't mind setting it
up etc if the saving was passed onto me. Quite lucky where I am in that I
don't have to feel guilty about not supporting the LBS - they make so much
from selling bikes that they do all the can to avoid fixing the things.
Useless.

mr p said:

I bought two bikes this time last year from two different web sites.
Whereas the Felt F70 I got has been great ( from JE James ) I have had
various problems with the Claude Butler Cape Wrath disk MTB I got from
cyclesmart.co.uk, although very pleased in general with the bike , it
has had a fair few prpoblems.

Various things have gone wrong in 1100 miles or so of use .. ( mostly
road/ gravel tracks )

<snip>

Quoted message said:

- rear cassette now has about 4mm of play in it.. I am waiting to get a
locknut tool to see exactly what is worn or if the nut is not tightened
correctly ( which would not be a suprise really ) These cost £50 quid
to replaced, I hope it's not what's causing my chain slip problems!

What sort of cassette is this? Unless you are looking at XT quality or
similar, most cassettes cost quite a bit less than £50.
eg Chain Reaction have the Shimano HG50 (which is probably similar to
what the bike came with) for £20:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=443

Or if you want an upgrade, they have the XT cassette for £35 (or the
equivalent from SRAM).

--
Craig Wallace
http://craig.neogeo.org.uk
http://www.neogeo.org.uk

In article <[email hidden]>

mr p said:

I bought two bikes this time last year from two different web sites.
Whereas the Felt F70 I got has been great ( from JE James ) I have had
various problems with the Claude Butler Cape Wrath disk MTB I got from
cyclesmart.co.uk, although very pleased in general with the bike , it
has had a fair few prpoblems.

Various things have gone wrong in 1100 miles or so of use .. ( mostly
road/ gravel tracks )

<snip>

Quoted message said:

The F70 has worked like a dream from scratch and nothing at all has
gone wrong, nothing..

Whereas the MTB has had a harder year, I was wandering have I been
unlucky with this bike or is this a normal level of faults ? is it a
case of the dealer not having done his job of checking things before
dispatching ? What should you normally expect a dealer to check ?

JE James seem very good in comparison, I think they actually did a
'pre delivery inspection' and set things up which has made all the
difference.

That can be the price you pay for buying from a box shifter rather than
a proper bike shop. A good shop will offer advice on which bike will
suit you - you can sit on it in the showroom and probably take it for a
test ride. They will prepare the bike before you take it away, fit any
accessories you need, offer a free service once you've ridden it a bit
to make sure that everything is running smoothly and nothing has worked
loose after the initial bedding-in. They will then offer free
advice/quotes on any maintenance issues, stock a range of spares,
accessories and tools, and generally try to make you a happy cyclist.

A box shifter will take your money and then often won't want to hear
from you again until you want to buy another bike. The only preparation
that some of them do is to open the box to make sure there's a bike
inside (some won't even do that). If you're not competent to handle the
initial setup and ongoing maintenance yourself you need to get the bike
checked over by a proper mechanic - remember that's free if you buy the
bike from a LBS but can cost £30+ if you didn't. The amount of work
that it takes to set up a bike can vary a lot - some really do just need
the bars straightening and the pedals fitting, but many will need the
brakes and gears tweaking and some will need bearings adjusting, wheels
tensioning/truing etc.

Obviously not all local shops are good, and not all mail-order suppliers
are bad ...

Craig Wallace said:

mr p said:

I bought two bikes this time last year from two different web sites.
Whereas the Felt F70 I got has been great ( from JE James ) I have had
various problems with the Claude Butler Cape Wrath disk MTB I got from
cyclesmart.co.uk, although very pleased in general with the bike , it
has had a fair few prpoblems.

Various things have gone wrong in 1100 miles or so of use .. ( mostly
road/ gravel tracks )

<snip>

Quoted message said:

- rear cassette now has about 4mm of play in it.. I am waiting to get a
locknut tool to see exactly what is worn or if the nut is not tightened
correctly ( which would not be a suprise really ) These cost £50 quid
to replaced, I hope it's not what's causing my chain slip problems!

What sort of cassette is this? Unless you are looking at XT quality or
similar, most cassettes cost quite a bit less than £50.
eg Chain Reaction have the Shimano HG50 (which is probably similar to
what the bike came with) for £20:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=443

Or if you want an upgrade, they have the XT cassette for £35 (or the
equivalent from SRAM).

thanks for the link, I just bought the tools I will need from ebay . I
am going to stick a cheap chain I've got on there and see how that goes
then hopefully replace cassette and chain later

Interestingly I bought the wrong chain from a supermarche in France (
24 speed not 27 ) but it's still narrower than the knackered one
cyclemart sent me !

Where is 'Bicycle repair man' when you need him hey ?

Tony Raven said the following on 03/10/2006 12:47:

Quoted message said:

ProGold is good stuff but sloshing it all over the chain is a waste -
you can drip it onto the edge of the rollers so it wicks inside to where
it is needed.

I do the latter after doing the former, and yes, the former probably is
a bit of a waste.

Quoted message said:

Putting it on a dirty or dusty chain is also a bad idea:
it just washes the dirt from the outside where its harmless to the
inside where it does all the damage.

Possibly, but wouldn't that apply to any lube/cleaner? Certainly with
the white spirit wash, an awful lot of gunk comes out of the chain, but
what I haven't done is to put a visibly clean chain into white spirit,
and then see how much dirt comes out.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Boyd (') said:

Tony Raven said the following on 03/10/2006 12:47:

Quoted message said:

ProGold is good stuff but sloshing it all over the chain is a waste -
you can drip it onto the edge of the rollers so it wicks inside to where
it is needed.

I do the latter after doing the former, and yes, the former probably is
a bit of a waste.

Quoted message said:

Putting it on a dirty or dusty chain is also a bad idea:
it just washes the dirt from the outside where its harmless to the
inside where it does all the damage.

Possibly, but wouldn't that apply to any lube/cleaner? Certainly with
the white spirit wash, an awful lot of gunk comes out of the chain, but
what I haven't done is to put a visibly clean chain into white spirit,
and then see how much dirt comes out.

OK, this is complex and a lot of people have views on it. My practice is
close to (and partially influenced by) Sheldon Brown's

Firstly, the lube that's applied to the chain in the factory is the best
thing there is. It's applied under pressure and gets into all the bearings
of the chain, and as there's no solvent in there first isn't diluted or
contaminated with anything. You can never get back to as good as this, so
attempting to clean off the factory lube is madness.

Secondly, applying lube to a dirty chain is bad news because as Tony says
it tends to carry contaminants into the bearing surfaces. If you want to
relube a chain without going through a full clean-and-relube cycle then
run the chain through a handfull of kitchen paper first until you could
eat your dinner off it - then relube. I do this quite often on road bike
chains, which tend to be pretty clean anyway, but never on a mountain bike
chain.

Thirdly, applying solvent to a chain and not washing it out or allowing it
to evaporate off is bad news because it will partly dissolve and thus
reduce the effectiveness of the new lube you put on.

Fourthly, any lube designed to be put on cold contains solvents to help
carry it into the bearing surfaces, and is thus less effective than the
original lube. So, like thermodynamics, you can't win and you can't break
even. Systems where you put the chain into wax, heat it to melt the wax
and drive the air out of the bearings and then cool it in the wax to suck
melted wax into the bearings may well be more effective but it's a big
faff and I've never done it.

Fifthly, if you don't clean the outside of the chain meticulously after
relubing it will attract dirt, so you'll very soon have the whole job to
do over again.

So the full job is:

(1) take the chain off the bike;
(2) put the chain into wide mouth plastic bottle, add about a cupful of
solvent, screw on the top of the bottle, shake vigorously for two or three
minutes;
(3) pour solvent off into a container in which the dirt can settle out.
After a day or two you'll be able to pour off the nearly-clean solvent,
and you can reuse it quite a number of times;
(4) hang chain up to dry for at least an hour, ideally overnight;
(5) apply lube to each link (many people say one side only and while I see
the logic I find this difficult to do in practice);
(6) hang chain up to allow lube to penetrate into the links for at least an
hour, ideally overnight;
(7) clean the outside of the chain thoroughly with an old rag or kitchen
paper;
(8) put the chain back on the bike.

For me, this is an every serious mountain bike chore, but it's once a month
or less for my good road bike. My winter bike has been running on a
transmission I was deliberately running into the ground over the past
year, so it's had little attention; but now it's on an all-new
transmission it will probably need a proper chain clean once a week
through the winter. It's a faff. But a well cared for chain lasts a lot
longer and does less damage to the rest of the transmission.

I use White Lightning on my good road bike chain, Finish Line Cross Country
on my winter bike and my mountain bikes. White Lightning is very clean,
but doesn't survive rain so it's not suitable for utility bikes. Both
products are expensive but you use very little so they aren't actually
expensive in use. I tried White Lightning Epic as a winter bike lube but
wasn't impressed.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
,/| _.--''^``-...___.._.,;
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