Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

Butyl forensics: Tube failure diagnosis

Started by Rick Onanian · · Last activity · 20 posts · 1,548 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Cycling Equipment
Published
1 May 2004
Last activity
8 May 2004
Original author
Rick Onanian
Posts
20
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
1,548
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 20
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. My tube has a very small hole near the valve stem but not
    close enough to the valve hole for the valve hole to be the
    cause...unless the tube somehow got bunched up at the hole.
    members.cox.nettubefail.jpg You can see it to
    the left of the stem, where the reinforced rubber of the
    stem area borders the standard rubber.

    What would cause this failure?

    Will a carefully-applied patch hold, or should I discard
    this tube?

    This tube's history: two or three hundred miles on it, no
    problems. Recently changed tire from a 700x23c to 700x20c.
    Tube is marked for 18-25c.
    --
    Rick Onanian

  2. On Sat, 01 May 2004 15:50:41 -0400, Rick Onanian <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    My tube has a very small hole near the valve stem but not
    close enough to the valve hole for the valve hole to be the
    cause...unless the tube somehow got bunched up at the hole.
    members.cox.nettubefail.jpg You can see it to
    the left of the stem, where the reinforced rubber of the
    stem area borders the standard rubber.

    What would cause this failure?

    Will a carefully-applied patch hold, or should I discard
    this tube?

    This tube's history: two or three hundred miles on it, no
    problems. Recently changed tire from a 700x23c to 700x20c.
    Tube is marked for 18-25c.

    Weird- I got one of these a few days ago. Michelin tube. My
    hole was smaller, but almost the same location. I'll be
    interested to see what others say. I couldn't see anything
    inside the rim- tape, etc.- that caused it.

  3. Rick Onanian said:

    My tube has a very small hole near the valve stem but not
    close enough to the valve hole for the valve hole to be
    the cause... unless the tube somehow got bunched up at
    the hole.

    members.cox.nettubefail.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    You can see it to the left of the stem, where the
    reinforced rubber of the stem area borders the
    standard rubber.

    Quoted message said:

    What would cause this failure?

    It looks like a typical installation pinch hole, which is
    consistent with your changing tires recently. You didn't say
    whether this occurred while riding or just after mounting
    the new tire.

    Quoted message said:

    Will a carefully-applied patch hold, or should I discard
    this tube?

    It ought to work if you are careful about cleaning the tube
    using sandpaper and placing the patch carefully. I would
    certainly use it.

    Quoted message said:

    This tube's history: two or three hundred miles on it, no
    problems. Recently changed tire from a 700x23c to 700x20c.
    Tube is marked for 18-25c.

    Sounds good enough for the job.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  4. On Sat, 01 May 2004 20:36:44 GMT, [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    Rick Onanian writes:
    members.cox.nettubefail.jpg

    Quoted message said:

    What would cause this failure?

    It looks like a typical installation pinch hole, which is
    consistent with your changing tires recently. You didn't
    say whether this occurred while riding or just after
    mounting the new tire.

    I mounted it a few days ago. It blew in the first 20
    meters I rode.

    What could pinch the tube in that spot? That spot should be
    directly against the flat of the rim tape (good cloth rim
    tape, at that 🙂, right?
    --
    Rick Onanian

  5. Quoted message said:

    What could pinch the tube in that spot? That spot should
    be directly against the flat of the rim tape (good cloth
    rim tape, at that 🙂, right?

    Rick: The valve section of the tube may have been
    "suspended" above the rim a bit, by not being completely
    settled in the rim. You need to make sure, after
    installation, that the valve floats freely within the tire
    when you push it up. What might have happened is that the
    tube was pinched by the tire in that area, holding a section
    of it firmly in place. When you air up the tube, it tries to
    fill in the vacant space underneath the valve area,
    stretching the most-vulnerable part of the tube beyond its
    limits. I'm sure I could explain this better...

    The most important thing about tubes is to keep in mind
    that, properly contained, they almost never fail due to a
    defect, even if there is one. The tire is doing all the
    work, holding things in place.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

  6. Rick Onanian said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What would cause this failure?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It looks like a typical installation pinch hole, which is
    consistent with your changing tires recently. You didn't
    say whether this occurred while riding or just after
    mounting the new tire.

    Quoted message said:

    I mounted it a few days ago. It blew in the first 20
    meters I rode.

    I guess the pinch was close to the bursting point after
    assembly and all it took was a few tire flexings to make it
    pssssssst.

    Quoted message said:

    What could pinch the tube in that spot?

    The mechanic. I see no other possibility and the fuzzy
    picture makes it fit the description I gave above.

    Quoted message said:

    That spot should be directly against the flat of the rim
    tape (good cloth rim tape, at that 🙂, right?

    That's OK but the damage to the tube was caused by forceful
    action. The tube worked fine for many miles before the human
    interaction and then it got a cut that was not caused in
    manufacture, it being a sharp edged separation. This is also
    a reason to make sure not to finish engaging a tire on the
    rim at the stem but opposite the stem.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  7. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Rick Onanian said:
    Quoted message said:

    > What would cause this failure?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It looks like a typical installation pinch hole, which
    is consistent with your changing tires recently. You
    didn't say whether this occurred while riding or just
    after mounting the new tire.

    Quoted message said:

    I mounted it a few days ago. It blew in the first 20
    meters I rode.

    I guess the pinch was close to the bursting point after
    assembly and all it took was a few tire flexings to make
    it pssssssst.

    Quoted message said:

    What could pinch the tube in that spot?

    The mechanic. I see no other possibility and the fuzzy
    picture makes it fit the description I gave above.

    Quoted message said:

    That spot should be directly against the flat of the rim
    tape (good cloth rim tape, at that 🙂, right?

    That's OK but the damage to the tube was caused by
    forceful action. The tube worked fine for many miles
    before the human interaction and then it got a cut that
    was not caused in manufacture, it being a sharp edged
    separation. This is also a reason to make sure not to
    finish engaging a tire on the rim at the stem but opposite
    the stem.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

    I had a similar "series" of failures near the valve stem
    that were caused by Hutchinson tires with very large beads.
    The tube was unable to properly seat at the rim because
    there was not enough space between the beads for the
    reinforced area around the valve to drop down against the
    rim. Failure usually took a few weeks. Took a while to
    figure it out. Some tubes worked better than others. Gave up
    on the tires and never had a similar problem again.

    Most of my flats over the last several years have been a
    result of defective tubes failing at seams after a month or
    two of use. Last year I gave up and just went to a heavier
    standard weight Blackburn tube and no more failures.
    Failures included Continental, Michelin and, the worst,
    Salsa. I discovered that I could find the flaws in the
    Salsas before I installed them. Took four back to the shop.
    Bill Brannon

  8. On Sun, 02 May 2004 02:30:50 GMT, [email hidden]

    Quoted message said:
    Rick Onanian said:

    What could pinch the tube in that spot?

    The mechanic. I see no other possibility and the fuzzy
    picture makes it fit the description I gave above.

    I guess you mean it was pinched and weakened during
    installation, not that it continued to be pinched once
    installed...as if I had pinched it with tire levers.
    That's possible.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That spot should be directly against the flat of the rim
    tape (good cloth rim tape, at that 🙂, right?

    That's OK but the damage to the tube was caused by forceful
    action. The tube worked fine for many miles before the
    human interaction and then it got a cut that was not caused
    in manufacture, it being a sharp edged separation.

    Actually, I've since realized that I was wrong; I had,
    in fact, put a brand new tube in, because I pinched
    (with a classic snakebite) the old tube. I forgot about
    that when I posted.

    Quoted message said:

    This is also a reason to make sure not to finish engaging a
    tire on the rim at the stem but opposite the stem.

    I had, in fact, finished engaging the tire exactly 180° from
    the stem. I did have a hard time with it (which is how I
    snakebit the first tube); the tire was a very tight fit. It
    ended up requiring soapy water to make it seat.

    After the failure about which I queried, the tire
    mounted and seated much easier, without any lubrication.
    Did it stretch, or was it the remaining lube from the
    previous time?
    --
    Rick Onanian

  9. Rick Onanian said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What could pinch the tube in that spot?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The mechanic. I see no other possibility and the fuzzy
    picture makes it fit the description I gave above.

    Quoted message said:

    I guess you mean it was pinched and weakened during
    installation, not that it continued to be pinched once
    installed... as if I had pinched it with tire levers.
    That's possible.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That spot should be directly against the flat of the rim
    tape (good cloth rim tape, at that 🙂, right?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's OK but the damage to the tube was caused by
    forceful action. The tube worked fine for many miles
    before the human interaction and then it got a cut that
    was not caused in manufacture, it being a sharp edged
    separation.

    Quoted message said:

    Actually, I've since realized that I was wrong; I had, in
    fact, put a brand new tube in, because I pinched (with a
    classic snakebite) the old tube. I forgot about that when
    I posted.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is also a reason to make sure not to finish engaging
    a tire on the rim at the stem but opposite the stem.

    Quoted message said:

    I had, in fact, finished engaging the tire exactly 180?
    from the stem. I did have a hard time with it (which is
    how I snakebit the first tube); the tire was a very tight
    fit. It ended up requiring soapy water to make it seat.

    Quoted message said:

    After the failure about which I queried, the tire
    mounted and seated much easier, without any lubrication.
    Did it stretch, or was it the remaining lube from the
    previous time?

    Not unless it has a Kevlar (foldable tire) bead. These are
    often difficult to mount and for may assessment have no
    business on a wheel other than being used as a spare on a
    tour. Folding tires can be carried in the bottom of a
    touring bag, never to be seen, one hopes. That's where I
    keep a tire and some spokes.

    Last summer the baggage mashers on the airline ripped a
    spoke out of my wheel, snapping off a spoke nipple. All
    spare spokes carried should have a new nipple screwed on
    just in case. I have also slashed a tire while touring and
    had to dig out my spare.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

  10. Rick Onanian said:

    I had, in fact, finished engaging the tire exactly 180°
    from the stem. I did have a hard time with it (which is
    how I snakebit the first tube); the tire was a very
    tight fit.

    How do you snakebite a tube during installation?

    --
    Dave dvt at psu dot edu

  11. I said:
    Quoted message said:

    After the failure about which I queried, the tire
    mounted and seated much easier, without any lubrication.
    Did it stretch, or was it the remaining lube from the
    previous time?


    Quoted message said:

    Not unless it has a Kevlar (foldable tire) bead. These
    are often

    It does indeed have a Kevlar bead.

    Quoted message said:

    difficult to mount and for may assessment have no business
    on a wheel other than being used as a spare on a tour.
    Folding tires can be carried in the bottom of a touring
    bag, never to be seen, one hopes. That's where I keep a
    tire and some spokes.

    It was my spare, I kept it folded up on my aero
    seatpost... I don't know if an aero post makes any
    effective speed difference, but it's a _perfect_ place for
    a folded spare tire.

    Quoted message said:

    All spare spokes carried should have a new nipple screwed
    on just in case.

    Good idea.

    I like to see talk about screwing and nipples...tell
    me more. <G>
    --
    Rick Onanian

  12. dvt said:
    Rick Onanian said:

    I had, in fact, finished engaging the tire exactly 180°
    from the stem. I did have a hard time with it (which is
    how I snakebit the first tube); the tire was a very
    tight fit.

    How do you snakebite a tube during installation?

    Beats me, but I sure did it. Silly narrow tire.
    --
    Rick Onanian

  13. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Rick Onanian

    BOn Tue said:
    Rick Onanian said:

    I had, in fact, finished engaging the tire exactly 180°
    from the stem. I did have a hard time with it (which is
    how I snakebit the first tube); the tire was a very
    tight fit.

    How do you snakebite a tube during installation?

    Beats me, but I sure did it. Silly narrow tire.
    --
    Rick Onanian [/B]

    Dear Rick,

    Pinching tubes on one side with a tire
    lever is a fairly common disaster when
    people first learn to change motorcycle
    tires and can be done with a tight bike
    tire.

    With an empty or only slightly inflated
    tube and 5/6ths of the tire seated, the
    lever is forced under the exposed bead,
    which is stretched taut across the outer
    rim, and then levered 180 degrees to
    force a short section of the bead up and
    over the rim.

    If the tube is trapped between the lever
    and the bead, or between the lever and
    the rim, or between the really tight bead
    and the rim, it's often pinched hard enough
    to split the rubber.

    The best protection on a bicycle is to use
    your bare hands, pushing the bead up and
    over the rim with your thumbs. (I gather that
    I've been lucky in never owning bicycle tires
    and rims too tight for this technique. It certainly
    isn't any Scharzenegger-like muscles.)

    For the tires and rims often mentioned here
    that require levers, it helps to speak of years
    of skill and experience while first lightly inflating
    the tube just by blowing into it--the faint bit of
    pressure makes it much less likely to trap
    a fold of baggy tube while boasting.

    If you meant a true snakebite with two
    such pinched areas split on both sides of
    the rim instead of just one, then things were
    really tangled when you heaved the bead
    over the rim.

    Most "defective" motorcycle tubes returned
    by angry customers have been clearly pinched
    during installation.

    Carl Fogel

  14. carlfogel said:

    Most "defective" motorcycle tubes returned by angry
    customers have been clearly pinched during installation.

    Ditto bicycle tubes. Almost always an attempted installation
    with no air in the tube - it should be just round enough to
    not fold over itself.

    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
    April, 1971

  15. On Sat, 01 May 2004 15:50:41 -0400, Rick Onanian <[email hidden]>

    may have said:

    My tube has a very small hole near the valve stem but not
    close enough to the valve hole for the valve hole to be the
    cause...unless the tube somehow got bunched up at the hole.
    members.cox.nettubefail.jpg You can see it to
    the left of the stem, where the reinforced rubber of the
    stem area borders the standard rubber.

    That looks distressingly familiar, though it's been a while
    since I had one like that.

    Quoted message said:

    What would cause this failure?

    Installation pinch *maybe*, but I've had a couple of new
    tubes straight from the box, that had never been
    installed, pop at similar locations when test-aired before
    installing, and I've had tubes fail in that kind of spot
    suddenly with no apparent cause after months in service. I
    would not discount the possibility that it's just a bad
    tube, though the rationale advanced about the tube stem
    base area not being free to move during initial inflation
    may have a bearing.

    Quoted message said:

    Will a carefully-applied patch hold, or should I discard
    this tube?

    I've had mixed results. If the tube appears fully sound
    otherwise, and the patch won't cause the stem to run at an
    angle, and the surface to which the patch will be applied is
    smooth and flat enough to avoid ridge-induced lifting, I'd
    say that it should work. The picture seems to make this one
    look like a good candidate. The crummy, cheap tubes I tend
    to end up using seldom seem to be amenable to such
    ministrations for this type of failure.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  16. On Tue, 04 May 2004 17:04:57 -0400, dvt <[email hidden]> may have

    Quoted message said:
    Rick Onanian said:

    I had, in fact, finished engaging the tire exactly 180°
    from the stem. I did have a hard time with it (which is
    how I snakebit the first tube); the tire was a very
    tight fit.

    How do you snakebite a tube during installation?

    Ummm, easily, particularly if insufficient caution is used?

    Pinch between end of tire lever and rim, or between tire
    bead and rim as tire is being installed.

    This kind of pinch is most common when a tire is being a
    right royal bugger about going on to the rim. In the battle
    to stretch the bead past the flange, the tube can end up as
    a casualty. It's probably more common when installing a
    folding tire for the first time, since the flexible beads on
    those are often a bit small until the tire's been inflated
    for a while. This tends to make it easier for a small fold
    of the tube to conceal itself in the wrong place as the
    tire's being mounted, only to be discovered after the tire
    lever has done the dirty deed.

    I've had *very* mixed results with mounting Kevlar-bead
    tires. A couple went on easily, and a couple of them just
    fought like fundamentalists defending their dogma. The last
    one I tried to mount

    and pinched two tubes trying to mount it himself, at ehich
    point he brought the wheel and tire over here to see if I
    had any better luck. After an hour of vocabulary expansion
    and two more snakebites. we concluded that this tire should
    be retained as a gift to be bestowed upon a particularly
    deserving recipient in the future.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  17. On Fri, 07 May 2004 01:49:18 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]> may

    have said:
    carlfogel said:

    Most "defective" motorcycle tubes returned by angry
    customers have been clearly pinched during installation.

    Ditto bicycle tubes. Almost always an attempted
    installation with no air in the tube - it should be just
    round enough to not fold over itself.

    That's one piece of information that I'd really like to see
    in the box with the tube more often. It's a step that's
    easily forgotten, and it's kind of important, particularly
    for those tubes that are so small before airing that they'd
    have to be stretched a bit just to use them as rim bands.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

  18. Werehatrack said:

    On Tue, 04 May 2004 17:04:57 -0400, dvt <[email hidden]>

    may have said:

    How do you snakebite a tube during installation?

    Quoted message said:

    Ummm, easily, particularly if insufficient caution
    is used?

    Quoted message said:

    Pinch between end of tire lever and rim, or between tire
    bead and rim as tire is being installed.

    OK, I've been there and done that in my younger days.
    Haven't had that problem in many years (knock on wood). But
    even in those days of yore, I don't recall a snakebite (i.e.
    2 parallel holes/slits in the tube). I can only recall
    failures involving one hole in the tube.

    Quoted message said:

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying
    via e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words
    processed in a facility that contains nuts.

    FYI and off-topic, it appears that your .sig is missing the
    space after the --. My newsreader didn't snip the .sig when
    I replied.

    --
    Dave dvt at psu dot edu

  19. dvt said:
    Werehatrack said:

    On Tue, 04 May 2004 17:04:57 -0400, dvt

    may have said:

    How do you snakebite a tube during installation?

    Quoted message said:

    Ummm, easily, particularly if insufficient caution
    is used?

    Quoted message said:

    Pinch between end of tire lever and rim, or between tire
    bead and rim as tire is being installed.

    This (including the snipped bit about a difficult tire bead)
    describes what happened.

    Quoted message said:

    OK, I've been there and done that in my younger days.
    Haven't had that problem in many years (knock on wood). But
    even in those days of yore, I don't recall a snakebite
    (i.e. 2 parallel holes/slits in the tube). I can only
    recall failures involving one hole in the tube.

    The holes in question are right next to eachother, all
    within a centimeter space I'd say...not a real snakebite,
    actually, where both sides of the rim do it. Just one side,
    somehow it made a mini-snakebite.

    Anyway, that wasn't the failure I was trying to diagnose; it
    was the second tube, which got a single hole in a spot that
    should not have been pinched nor abraded nor punctured.
    --
    Rick Onanian

  20. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    carlfogel said:

    Most "defective" motorcycle tubes returned by angry
    customers have been clearly pinched during installation.

    A Muzi <[email hidden]>>>Ditto bicycle tubes.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Almost always an attempted installation with no air in
    the tube - it should be just round enough to not fold
    over itself.

    Werehatrack said:

    That's one piece of information that I'd really like to
    see in the box with the tube more often. It's a step
    that's easily forgotten, and it's kind of important,
    particularly for those tubes that are so small before
    airing that they'd have to be stretched a bit just to use
    them as rim bands.

    What brand of tube?

    The leading brands (Michelin, IRC, Kenda) and house brands (
    CyclePro, Inline) here all say that plainly. The only tube
    here which doesn't are some very old AirB.

    And of course:
    draco.acs.uci.edu8b.2.html (Item #5)

    Let's say it. The problem isn't the tube package. Any normal
    American male would rather get a flat than read directions.

    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
    April, 1971

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.