Building Wheels - equipment needs

If you are ordering from Performance and are spending over
$50, use this coupon number; 6000381. You will get an
addition 20% off (even sale items). Coupon number is good
till 6-15-2004

(EdDyMeRkX) said:

If you are ordering from Performance and are spending over
$50, use this coupon number; 6000381. You will get an
addition 20% off (even sale items). Coupon number is good
till 6-15-2004

In fact, if you order from any online or MO retailer, google
for coupon codes...might as well save some money for five
minutes googling.
--
Rick Onanian

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Roger Zoul
Okay, let's say I'm want to build my own wheels (I'm a 240
lbs riding whose had problems with popping spokes) and also
begin the process of freeing myself of dependance on the
bicycle shop.

I've been reading sheldon brown's website and I've ordered
"The Bicycle Wheel"

I want to start with decent stuff, so I'm considering these
things (not all just for wheel building)

tinyurl.com24m2lOpen ↗ (a repair stand) <== I've been
wanting this

tinyurl.com37ewhOpen ↗ (a truing stand)

tinyurl.com2l2n3Open ↗ (a tensiometer) <== I'd like to
spend way less on this part

tinyurl.com2ar66Open ↗ (a spoke wrench set)

tinyurl.comysalnOpen ↗ (a dishing tool)

Is this good stuff for the price?

I like the Park Tension meter ergonomics, but I found it to be less useful and repeatable than the Wheelsmith unit.

EdDyMeRkX wrote:
:: If you are ordering from Performance and are spending
:: over $50, use this coupon number; 6000381. You will get
:: an addition 20% off (even sale items). Coupon number is
:: good till 6-15-2004

Good Stuff! Thanks.

Roger Zoul said:

I want to start with decent stuff, so I'm considering these
things (not all just for wheel building)

tinyurl.com24m2lOpen ↗ (a repair stand) <== I've been
wanting this tinyurl.com37ewhOpen ↗ (a truing stand)
tinyurl.com2l2n3Open ↗ (a tensiometer) <== I'd like to
spend way less on this part

Google groups for many, many discussions about these items.

Quoted message said:

tinyurl.com2ar66Open ↗ (a spoke wrench set)

These look like very nice spoke wrenches

Quoted message said:

tinyurl.comysalnOpen ↗ (a dishing tool)

Isn't there a "deluxe" version that's only slightly more
money, but has more functionality?

Quoted message said:

Is this good stuff for the price?

The truing stand definitely looks like a great price, but
make sure that it's the truing stand you'd want.
--
Rick Onanian

Roger Zoul said:

Okay, let's say I'm want to build my own wheels (I'm a 240
lbs riding whose had problems with popping spokes) and
also begin the process of freeing myself of dependance on
the bicycle shop.

Don't forget the Velocity Deep-V's, some 32 hole hubs and
butted spokes.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

Roger Zoul said:

Okay, let's say I'm want to build my own wheels (I'm a 240
lbs riding whose had problems with popping spokes) and also
begin the process of freeing myself of dependance on the
bicycle shop.

I've been reading sheldon brown's website and I've ordered
"The Bicycle Wheel"

I want to start with decent stuff, so I'm considering these
things (not all just for wheel building)

tinyurl.com24m2lOpen ↗ (a repair stand) <== I've been
wanting this

tinyurl.com37ewhOpen ↗ (a truing stand)

tinyurl.com2l2n3Open ↗ (a tensiometer) <== I'd like to
spend way less on this part

tinyurl.com2ar66Open ↗ (a spoke wrench set)

tinyurl.comysalnOpen ↗ (a dishing tool)

While most these things qualify as "nice to haves", I've
built a few wheels over the years and my only special tool
is a spoke wrench.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net
home.earthlink.net~jeverett3Open ↗

John Everett wrote:
:: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:57:22 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: Okay, let's say I'm want to build my own wheels (I'm a
::: 240 lbs riding whose had problems with popping spokes)
::: and also begin the process of freeing myself of
::: dependance on the bicycle shop.
:::
::: I've been reading sheldon brown's website and I've
::: ordered "The Bicycle Wheel"
:::
::: I want to start with decent stuff, so I'm considering
::: these things (not all just for wheel building)
:::
::: tinyurl.com24m2lOpen ↗ (a repair stand) <== I've been
::: wanting this
:::
::: tinyurl.com37ewhOpen ↗ (a truing stand)
:::
::: tinyurl.com2l2n3Open ↗ (a tensiometer) <== I'd like to
::: spend way less on this part
:::
::: tinyurl.com2ar66Open ↗ (a spoke wrench set)
:::
::: tinyurl.comysalnOpen ↗ (a dishing tool)
::
:: While most these things qualify as "nice to haves", I've
:: built a few wheels over the years and my only special
:: tool is a spoke wrench.

Wow?

Rick Onanian wrote:
:: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:57:22 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::: I want to start with decent stuff, so I'm considering
::: these things (not all just for wheel building)
:::
::: tinyurl.com24m2lOpen ↗ (a repair stand) <== I've been
::: wanting this tinyurl.com37ewhOpen ↗ (a truing stand)
::: tinyurl.com2l2n3Open ↗ (a tensiometer) <== I'd like to
::: spend way less on this part
::
:: Google groups for many, many discussions about
:: these items.

I decided to go with the Ultimate Pro Repair Stand and
Ultimate Pro Truing Stand. Performance has them as a combo
for $200, and with a 20% discount -- good deal. Plus,
supposedly the truing stand eliminates the need for a
dishing tool.

::
::: tinyurl.com2ar66Open ↗ (a spoke wrench set)
::
:: These look like very nice spoke wrenches
::
::: tinyurl.comysalnOpen ↗ (a dishing tool)
::
:: Isn't there a "deluxe" version that's only slightly more
:: money, but has more functionality?
::
::: Is this good stuff for the price?
::
:: The truing stand definitely looks like a great price, but
:: make sure that it's the truing stand you'd want.
:: --
:: Rick Onanian

Roger Zoul said:

I decided to go with the Ultimate Pro Repair Stand and
Ultimate Pro Truing Stand. Performance has them as a combo
for $200, and with a 20% discount -- good deal. Plus,
supposedly the truing stand eliminates the need for a
dishing tool.

From what you write, I take it you haven't built many wheels
if any. I don't think that is a good position from which to
buy wheel building equipment because you don't know what is
essential or what YOU in particular need. As others have
said, a spoke wrench is possibly the only tool you need. I
agree with that because that is how I started and only later
acquired a crummy truing stand and centering bridge (dishing
tool) from people who had them and gave them to me so I
could build their wheels more easily. I volunteered.

The dishing tool is not essential but one of the better
items to have. Stands with centering probes are not as
easily used and are not as accurate. The standard Campagnolo
dishing tool has easy to see double differential measurement
which makes it a highly precise yet simply readable tool
good for a few 0.001" precision.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

[email hidden] wrote:
:: Roger Zoul writes:
::
::: I decided to go with the Ultimate Pro Repair Stand and
::: Ultimate Pro Truing Stand. Performance has them as a
::: combo for $200, and with a 20% discount -- good deal.
::: Plus, supposedly the truing stand eliminates the need
::: for a dishing tool.
::
:: From what you write, I take it you haven't built many
:: wheels if any.

None at all...I'm starting and trying to learn...I was
planning on start with a low-priced wheel first....and I'm
trying to build a wheel that will hold up under my weight
(per the "Breaking Spokes" thread) and let me be free of the
LBS for this stuff.

:: I don't think that is a good position from which to buy
:: wheel building equipment because you don't know what is
:: essential or what YOU in particular need. As others have
:: said, a spoke wrench is possibly the only tool you need.
:: I agree with that because that is how I started and only
:: later acquired a crummy truing stand and centering bridge
:: (dishing tool) from people who had them and gave them to
:: me so I could build their wheels more easily. I
:: volunteered.
::
:: The dishing tool is not essential but one of the better
:: items to have. Stands with centering probes are not as
:: easily used and are not as accurate. The standard
:: Campagnolo dishing tool has easy to see double
:: differential measurement which makes it a highly precise
:: yet simply readable tool good for a few 0.001" precision.

So, if I decide to build my own wheel, you're suggesting I
go with only a spoke wrench? Does your book (which I have
coming) explain how to do it with only a spoke wrench? I'm
only too happy to not spend money, even though I'd enjoy
having that stand for general bike reasons, not just to
build wheels....

Still, I don't get how you true a wheel without a
stand....and how do you check the dish without the tool?
Apparently, one can make reasonable guesstimates?

Roger Zoul said:

Still, I don't get how you true a wheel without a
stand....and how do you check the dish without the tool?
Apparently, one can make reasonable guesstimates?

You can use your bike as a rudimentary truing stand, with
the brake blocks as indicators. Check the dish by flipping
the wheel around.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Gravity is a myth, the Earth sucks.

Roger Zoul said:

Quoted message said:

From what you write, I take it you haven't built many
wheels if any.

Quoted message said:

None at all... I'm starting and trying to learn... I was
planning on start with a low-priced wheel first... and I'm
trying to build a wheel that will hold up under my weight
(per the "Breaking Spokes" thread) and let me be free of
the LBS for this stuff.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think that is a good position from which to buy
wheel building equipment because you don't know what is
essential or what YOU in particular need. As others have
said, a spoke wrench is possibly the only tool you need.
I agree with that because that is how I started and only
later acquired a crummy truing stand and centering bridge
(dishing tool) from people who had them and gave them to
me so I could build their wheels more easily. I
volunteered.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The dishing tool is not essential but one of the better
items to have. Stands with centering probes are not as
easily used and are not as accurate. The standard
Campagnolo dishing tool has easy to see double
differential measurement which makes it a highly precise
yet simply readable tool good for a few 0.001" precision.

Quoted message said:

So, if I decide to build my own wheel, you're suggesting I
go with only a spoke wrench?

Not at all. I suggest you build a few and then realize what
it is you need or prefer. If you have the stuff, I can't say
which parts you don't need but I'm not sure you have the
best for your needs. Many truing stands have useless
gimmicks that do no good and others are hard to use in the
position you work in. For instance, the truing stand I have
assumes it is being used on a (high) table at chest level
since the probes are in the lower quadrant of the wheel. I
use the stand on the floor and look down on it. That isn't
what I would buy or construct, but then I can get along
without a lot of gimmicks. It also is not designed to true a
wheel with a tire on it and since I do repairs on it, that
is also inconvenient because the probes are hard to make not
drag on the tire.

Quoted message said:

Does your book (which I have coming) explain how to do it
with only a spoke wrench? I'm only too happy to not spend
money, even though I'd enjoy having that stand for
general bike reasons, not just to build wheels...

Of course and the trick there is to use your bicycle frame.
That isn't ideal by any means but you get the job done and
can asses how you would like to do it and buy appropriate
equipment.

Quoted message said:

Still, I don't get how you true a wheel without a stand...
and how do you check the dish without the tool?
Apparently, one can make reasonable guesstimates?

Use the bicycle using the brake pad on one side to true and
flip the wheel over to get dish. Lots of folks have done
this and still do.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Roger Zoul said:

So, if I decide to build my own wheel, you're suggesting I
go with only a spoke wrench? Does your book (which I have
coming) explain how to do it with only a spoke wrench? I'm
only too happy to not spend money, even though I'd enjoy
having that stand for general bike reasons, not just to
build wheels....

Still, I don't get how you true a wheel without a
stand....and how do you check the dish without the tool?
Apparently, one can make reasonable guesstimates?

A bicycle frame or fork, which I assume you have, can be
used in place of a truing stand. Use clothespins, wire, or
pencils mounted on the frame/fork tubes as indicators for
truing side to side and runout.

Instead of a dishing tool, simply reverse the wheel left for
right and adjust until it's symmetrical.

This approach will yield excellent wheels as long as you are
patient and understand what you are doing. It isn't all that
difficult and is quite satisfying.

If you are building or truing more than a few wheels, the
stand and dishing tool will make the job go quicker, and it
will impress onlookers more than the low-buck method. But
they are not necessary.

Adjust tension by comparing with a good wheel, by comparing
the sound of a plucked spoke. Not all that accurate, but it
will get you in the ballpark.

Don't forget to stress relieve the spokes. This step is
vital if you wheels are to last. You probably can't do this
well with bare hands, so wear leather gloves or some such.

Happy wheelbuilding, and let us know how they come out.

The following added for automatic email harvesters!
[email hidden] [email hidden] [email hidden]

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

Roger Zoul said:

None at all...I'm starting and trying to learn...I was
planning on start with a low-priced wheel first....and I'm
trying to build a wheel that will hold up under my weight
(per the "Breaking Spokes" thread) and let me be free of
the LBS for this stuff.

Taaa-daaah! There is an excellent set of reasons to learn
how to build wheels, plus the personal satisfaction. I enjoy
wheel building and I hope you do too. After you've built a
few and are familiar with the steps involved, it is a quiet
and pleasant endeavour- probably not unlike knitting or
tying flies.

Quoted message said:

So, if I decide to build my own wheel, you're suggesting I
go with only a spoke wrench? Does your book (which I have
coming) explain how to do it with only a spoke wrench? I'm
only too happy to not spend money, even though I'd enjoy
having that stand for general bike reasons, not just to
build wheels....

Still, I don't get how you true a wheel without a
stand....and how do you check the dish without the tool?
Apparently, one can make reasonable guesstimates?

Well, you can use your bike as a truing stand. I built
several sets of wheels that way. A truing stand is less
cumbersome, to be sure, but using a bike works fine. A
dishing tool can be homemade and be quite accurate.

Last summer in France in a town called Fougeres, I saw a
bike mechanic with a portable pair of truing stands he'd
made out of the fork and rear triangle of an old bike. They
clamped into a vice and away he went. It seemed plenty
accurate. So that's another option- find an old frame and
cut it apart, using the fork and rear triangle as truing
stands. Of course, for the wheel to be dished correctly
these items have to also be in correct alignment... ;-)

<snip>

Quoted message said:

A bicycle frame or fork, which I assume you have, can be
used in place of a truing stand. Use clothespins, wire, or
pencils mounted on the frame/fork tubes as indicators for
truing side to side and runout.

As Jobst, Ben, and Ted said, it's possible to build
excellent wheels with only a spoke wrench and a bike frame
for a truing stand. I've built many wheels this way. I
finally bought a truing stand for home use when I found a
somewhat decrepit stand at a swap meet for $10.

Good tools help you build your confidence without having to
deal with improvised solutions. Once you've *got* that
confidence, you can improvise until the cows come home. I
learned while working at a bike shop- ask around and see if
you can bribe a *good* mechanic into showing you the
basics. A good, patient mechanic is worth his (or her)
weight in beer.

Jobst's book is excellent on several levels, including
instructions. Since I started practicing his techniques, I
haven't broken a single spoke.

Jeff

Roger Zoul said:

John Everett wrote:
::
:: While most these things qualify as "nice to haves", I've
:: built a few wheels over the years and my only special
:: tool is a spoke wrench.

Wow?

From some of my postings over the years as found via
google groups:

From 2003-05-07:

"I've build a number of wheels and I don't own a truing
stand nor dishing tool. I build and true rears in the rear
triangle of a bike and fronts in an old fork which I mount
in my work stand by the steerer tube."

From 1997/12/30:

"At risk of drawing flames, let me suggest that a flat
surface and a machinists rule (or probably just a regular
ruler) does an adequate job as a dishing tool. Put the wheel
(skewer removed) on the flat surface with one section of the
rim in contact with the surface. Measure the height of the
rim 180° opposite, then flip it over and remeasure. If the
measurements are equal (assuming an equal amount of axle
extends beyond the locknut on each side, and the rim is
running true), the wheel is properly dished.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net
home.earthlink.net~jeverett3Open ↗

<[email hidden]> wrote ...

Quoted message said:

Not at all. I suggest you build a few and then realize
what it is you need or prefer. If you have the stuff, I
can't say which parts you don't need but I'm not sure you
have the best for your needs. Many truing stands have
useless gimmicks that do no good and others are hard to
use in the position you work in.

Have you ever thought about making Jobst Brandt Designer
wheeling building tools in cooperation with park or someone?
I bet you could make a whole bunch of money making tools
people can use.

JF

Jim Flom said:

Quoted message said:

Not at all. I suggest you build a few and then realize
what it is you need or prefer. If you have the stuff, I
can't say which parts you don't need but I'm not sure you
have the best for your needs. Many truing stands have
useless gimmicks that do no good and others are hard to
use in the position you work in.

Quoted message said:

Have you ever thought about making Jobst Brandt Designer
wheeling building tools in cooperation with park or
someone? I bet you could make a whole bunch of money
making tools people can use.

The only tool I designed was the tensiometer shown in the
book and that instrument, built by Avocet, is "out of print"
because at the time few people saw a need for it and those
who used it did not appreciate the features it had. It
supports the spoke from the same side as the measurement so
spoke thickness does not enter the measurement, it can be
zeroed as it is applied to the spoke to be measured, it uses
ball bearing spoke support so that cosine error of spoke
deflection does not cause frictional errors, it is a one
handed instrument using a high precision dial gauge so that
the test load can be small and not alter existing tension.

DT sold most of the production run before deciding to make
their own in Switzerland. Their instrument does not
encompass all of these features.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]