building up to climbing good...

tiggere said:

.....I will do whatever is needed to be a better climber......

Then get on your bike and ride hills. Treadmills will help you become a better runner, Pilates migh help flexibility, circuit training will help with lifting, but if you want to be faster, fitter and feel better while cycling up hills......cycle up some hills.

Cycling is not a strength sport, it's an aerobic sport (dammit 🙂) that relies on metabolic fitness. Train your body to continually supply energy to your working muscles while performing submaximal efforts. Train in a way close to the way you'll use your muscles and train consistently and for weeks, months, or years. IOW, ride your bike, ride it uphill if you want to improve on hills, and ride with reasonable effort for reasonable durations.

The rest of what you've proposed might be great for general fitness but ride a bike even if it's a stationary bike if you want to become better at bike riding.

Good luck,
-Dave

Ride your bike, ride your bike, ride your bike. And ride it in hilly areas, as you are already doing. Watch what you eat to lose the extra weight gradually. And ride some more.

The other stuff you have been doing is excellent for all around fitness, of course, but focus on your riding. Do not worry about your equipment (your bike is just fine)... you will see that the results will continue to come.

Sorry but I don't fully agree with the other posters. You can be a damn good hill climber without going near a hill in training.

At the beginning of the "It's killing me" thread, RapDaddyo posted the following:

Quoted post said:

I don't know who said it (in part because you would have gotten the same answer from almost any of the regular contributors on this forum), but you have it right. Cycling is all about overcoming one or more resistances. On the flat, the primary resistance is drag and the second resistance is rolling resistance. On the flat, the things that affect your drag affect speed enormously. The (main) things you have control of are your position on the bike and your wheels and tires. That's why wind affects your speed so much on the flat. As soon as the road tilts up more than a few percent, gravity quickly moves to the top of the resistance list. Obviously, some drag remains but it becomes secondary due to the lower speed. The main reason you need power is to lift the weight of you and your bike vertically. The most commonly used measure for climbing is watts per kilogram. To climb at the same speed, you need to generate the same w/kg as your riding buddy. Let's say that your buddy's weight is 60kg (132lbs) and that he can climb at 150w. So, his w/kg is 2.5 (150/60). Then, let's say your weight is 75kg(165lb). To match his speed, you would need to climb at 187.5w (75*2.5). There are lots of good reasons to lose weight, but this is one more. Lose a few pounds and your goal gets closer. I am in the process of slimming down for race season and my w/kg will go up by about 0.5w/kg as a result. That's huge in races with any major climbs. I put an 8x10 enlargement of the view from the bike of a major local hillclimb (Mt. Charleston) on my refrigerator (see below). I remember how I felt at that exact point in the race last September as I struggled to lift the weight of me and my bike up that mountain. That's all the incentive I need to pass on the extra calories. BTW, if need some help working out the #s to lose weight, try this free site

To which I replied that there must be other factors involved when it comes to climbing. And RapDaddyo replied with the following classic:

Quoted post said:

Nope, it's all about power and weight. To your bike, you're just an engine with a smile. It doesn't care how you generate power or what you look like or what sex you are or how hold you are. It says, "Show me the power, babe, and don't weigh too much cause I've got to drag your fat body up that hill.

In short, increase your power and reduce your weight and you will climb like an Ibex. Sure, climb hills for the psychological benefits doing so offers, but just climbing hills will not improve your hill climbing ability as much as increasing your power and reducing your weight will. 😉 Tyson

sorry should have been more clear on the gyming aspect as I know this is a highly debated topic...I'm not going yet...but have been thinking about it for a couple reasons...I have been a SAHD for the last four years...the heaviest thing I have lifted is a [censored] diaper, vacuum, and sacks of vittles in that four years...my BMI is a 25.6 according to my wifes Wii Fit and 22% body fat from the gym's pokie prody caliper thingamajig...and my general fitness is for the crapper also...at this point I think anything I did at the gym would be beneficial...

people may laugh or baulk at the yoga/pilates working the flexibility/core aspect but isn't cycling really demanding from both of these aspects...hell I can't even touch my toes...just barely can see the darn things if I stretch my neck out a little...LOL

The other MAJOR benefit is the fact that my son can go to the day care for free...its kinda hard to go for a morning ride while your four year old is watching Power Rangers 😄 ...probably also against the law in 50 states...well maybe 49...not to sure about WV...:p ...and in the evenings its 70% humidity and 90+ degrees...which is another factor to figure in...

and I assure you Dave the gym is not a substitute for my afternoon riding...which around here usually get cancelled for thunderstorms...but to mainly improve overall fitness, cut the fat, and they do have a really nice spinning class...they use LeMond RevMaster trainers...

I do agree their is no substitution for getting on the bike and riding the wheels off of it...but from my general fitness (or lack there of) their has to be something else OFF the bike that I can do to help supplement my ON bike time...because I sure do have alot of time that I really can not be on the bike but could be doing something else...

My wife has pretty much taken over my food consumption...she tells me what I can eat and how much of it...basically counting calories...except on heavy ride days I can eat as I need to for energy on the bike and while riding...

Sillyoldtwit said:

Sorry but I don't fully agree with the other posters. You can be a damn good hill climber without going near a hill in training....

I more or less agree with you Tyson although it's hard to know when to sit and stand, what gears to use, how to develop a rythm on a steep grade, when to shift, etc. if you don't get on hills occaisionally. But I'm with you, it's mostly watts/kg on hills and you can develop those watts or lose those kg without riding hills.

Mostly I was responding to the suggestion that yoga, pilates, treadmills, and circuit training are the missing ingredients to being a better hill climber. I see the follow up post, but still think if you're stuck in the gym then sit on the erg and increase your sustainable power in a bike specific way.

It's sorta like saying I want to run my first marathon so I'll: do a lot of swimming since I hear it's good exercise, spend time in the sauna to learn how to sweat, and maybe take a knitting class to get used to the boredom I'll have to deal with when running for that many hours.

If you want to improve your fitness, speed and power on the bike then spend time on bikes. If you struggle on hills then a bit of time on them is smart since there are mental and skills elements as well as pure fitness. But Tyson is right, get your power up and that's best done on a bike not in a pilates class or even on the treadmill.

If you want to do those other things for the reasons you've mentioned or other reasons go right ahead, just don't fool yourself into thinking they'll do much to improve your uphill cycling.

Good luck,
-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

I more or less agree with you Tyson although it's hard to know when to sit and stand, what gears to use, how to develop a rythm on a steep grade, when to shift, etc. if you don't get on hills occaisionally. But I'm with you, it's mostly watts/kg on hills and you can develop those watts or lose those kg without riding hills.

Mostly I was responding to the suggestion that yoga, pilates, treadmills, and circuit training are the missing ingredients to being a better hill climber. I see the follow up post, but still think if you're stuck in the gym then sit on the erg and increase your sustainable power in a bike specific way.

It's sorta like saying I want to run my first marathon so I'll: do a lot of swimming since I hear it's good exercise, spend time in the sauna to learn how to sweat, and maybe take a knitting class to get used to the boredom I'll have to deal with when running for that many hours.

If you want to improve your fitness, speed and power on the bike then spend time on bikes. If you struggle on hills then a bit of time on them is smart since there are mental and skills elements as well as pure fitness. But Tyson is right, get your power up and that's best done on a bike not in a pilates class or even on the treadmill.

If you want to do those other things for the reasons you've mentioned or other reasons go right ahead, just don't fool yourself into thinking they'll do much to improve your uphill cycling.

Good luck,
-Dave

You're right Dave, getting the right gear(s) for the climb you're on is important, but I think it's mostly instinctive. Also getting it right on your regular climb, might not help you much on a climb you are doing for the first time. As for standing when climbing, I'm firmly in the sit tight in the saddle school. I don't stand even on a 17% grade I do.
One thing I am doing after reading recently about University research into the quickest way to climb, is to weave from one side of the road to the other (traffic permitting of course). In fact I'm refining it so that, let's say you cross the road to the right (left in the US) at a 45% angle, I do that at "normal speed" then accelerate at a 45% angle back to the left of the road and so on.
For me, the stress of climbing has been reduced considerably and hence I'm much faster on the climbs.

As for the other things the OP mentions, this argument has been discussed ad nauseam in these forums. And Dave, I think you are banging your head against the wall attempting to convince some of these guys about the futility of jam making etc. to improve your cycling ability.
All I know is when I stopped wasting my time building "body beautiful" before I mounted the trainer in the gym, my FTP shot up.
However, there is one thing I believe in, and that is, some form of meditation after a hide ride, be it yoga, Tai Chi or whatever definitely seems to help with recovery. Taken to it's logical conclusion, greater recovery = better workouts = greater power.

The OP mentioned filling in time; the best way to fill in time is REST, REST, and more REST.

If you don't need rest, then you haven't trained hard enough. 😉 Tyson

Sillyoldtwit said:

One thing I am doing after reading recently about University research into the quickest way to climb, is to weave from one side of the road to the other (traffic permitting of course). In fact I'm refining it so that, let's say you cross the road to the right (left in the US) at a 45% angle, I do that at "normal speed" then accelerate at a 45% angle back to the left of the road and so on.

LOL, I'd love to see someone do that in a race pack (that I wasn't *in*). Actually, seeing a whole pack of riders doing that in a long zig-zagging line on an otherwise straight road would be pretty good too. 😄

Do you have a link to the article/study? I'd be interested to see how increasing speed through the air (and aero drag) and adding in all those speed-scrubbing turns, in return for reducing the steepness of the travelled path adds to a faster rate of climb. Does it work for all grades, or only the steepest ones where available gearing is insufficient?

Sillyoldtwit said:

...

As for the other things the OP mentions, this argument has been discussed ad nauseam in these forums. And Dave, I think you are banging your head against the wall attempting to convince some of these guys about the futility of jam making etc. to improve your cycling ability...

Don't even go there, because it's never futile! My jammin' Sunday did wonders for my TSB (and W/kg :p). 😉😄

You know I fully understand what you guys are saying about not going to the gym...you want to train the muscles for the activity that they will be doing...the new red blood cells will have more mitochondria and the muscles fibers will recover with more ability to perform at hard paces...and thats fine and dandy for the legs but what about the other muscles in our body...meaning upper and core...do we forget about them or do we circuit train with light weight with more reps...or are they totally insignificant...thats the issue I want to discuss...I'm with you on the other aspects of it...

As for my basic riding...in my case I assume as long as I go out and put forth a moderate to hard effort that I am gaining from it overall...meaning there is no such thing as "junk miles" where I am at in my riding...and with less than 1000 miles under my belt I am definately in the beginning stages...

Back to the hill climbing...any suggestions on techniques I should be doing going up to keep from blowing up...even if I spin up the hills around 6 or 7 mph when I get to the top the burn is definately on and I can't breathe...and thats with a triple in my lowest gear...I have tried to manage my breathing on some of the bigger climbs and keep my pace steady and my HR from going too high...and it helps for the first one or three hills...the 4th on through the ride though are a different story...and we have some VERY rolling terrain around here...

Should I take one of my days and just go do hill intervals...I have a monster I can ride up in about 3 or 4 minutes right beside the house...then ride down and do it again or ride down the other side and climb it...the other side has some funky little sections that plateau and the climb is a bit steeper on one of them...

I try to take two days a week off for rest...Mondays and Fridays...the rest I ride with my hardest effort being on the Saturday group ride...Sunday and Thursday are shorter recovery ride days...and on all my ride days I try like hell to maintain a 15.5+ mph...usually closer to 16 mph for 10 to 15 mile rides...I'm going to start increasing ride distance to 20 and 25 miles now that I am back into it and in a little better shape...

Silly you mentioned that I wasn't pushing hard enough if I didn't need rest...well after my last two Saturday rides I needed help to get out of bed on Sunday morning...I was stiff as a board and hurt all over...actually think I pushed too hard...and it was easy to tell that I was not in good form riding as my shoulder muscles at my neck were sore from where I must have been using them to support my upper body (core weakness showing...see first paragraph)...but no pain no gain right...

Think I might just say the hell with it and move to the beach...nice flat ground...😄

A strong core is great for cycling, but cycling doesn't build your core, and I am a major offender here. Core work on off days good ...

As for climbing, it seems the efforts are very short?
Most of my climbs take 20 minutes to an hour here.

Sunday I rode SST/L4 for roughly 90 minutes of a 2 hour ride, climbing about 5000 feet in about 30 miles, and I am not in shape.

Find a climb that takes 15-20 minutes and do repeats at 90-95% of your threshold HR. Be loose, relax, breathe and just get in the zone

frenchyge said:

Does it work for all grades, or only the steepest ones where available gearing is insufficient?

If you do that I'll personally present you with a yellow "big girls blouse" jersey for biggest wuss. Look up the road, get out of the saddle and just get the deed done.... If you have enough time to think about weaving around in the road then you were not going hard enough to start with. 😉

swampy1970 said:

If you do that I'll personally present you with a yellow "big girls blouse" jersey for biggest wuss. Look up the road, get out of the saddle and just get the deed done.... If you have enough time to think about weaving around in the road then you were not going hard enough to start with. 😉

[censored]! 😠

swampy1970 said:

If you have enough time to think about weaving around in the road then you were not going hard enough to start with. 😉

🙄 I was more curious about the possibility of any real benefit, rather than whether people would think I was going hard enough or not.

I'll admit I'm incredulous, but I was hoping to read a little more about it before dismissing the idea. Tyson, do you have a link? (PM me, if you want)

frenchyge said:

🙄 I was more curious about the possibility of any real benefit, rather than whether people would think I was going hard enough or not.

I'll admit I'm incredulous, but I was hoping to read a little more about it before dismissing the idea. Tyson, do you have a link? (PM me, if you want)

I've done a search but can't lay my hands on it at the mo..
It was on Yahoo a couple of months or more ago. A University in the US compared going straight up a climb with weaving, and the conclusion was, and I quote. "As many people already knew, the quickest way up a hill from A to B on a bike is by weaving from side to side."

It's certainly helped my climbing - I've passed many young guys on hill climbs wearing my big girls blouse. 2 days I ago passed a young muscular looking guy standing up out of the saddle on his Litespeed. Passed him sitting tight in the saddle and said "good morning" and left him for dead as I weaved my way up the climb. 😉 Tyson

PS Just found this interesting observation, not the answer you're looking for but nevertheless.....

Quoted post said:

Your friend is also riding a bicycle up Observatory Hill. While you head straight uphill to the top, your friend weaves back and forth on the road. As a result, your friend travels exactly twice as far as you do in the process of climbing the hill. The two of you started and finished at the same place and you both weigh the same amount. Neglecting friction and air resistance, compare the amounts of work the two of you did while climbing the hill: are they the same? Are they different? If different, by what fraction do they differ?

Answer: You both do the same amount of work.

Why: You each undergo the same change in gravitational potential energy in climbing the hill. That’s because you both have the same weight and both rise the same distance upward. The amount of work each of you must do in climbing the hill is exactly this increase in gravitational potential energy. Regardless of how you make the journey, you will have done this amount of work when you reach the top of the hill.

that makes sense as its basically the stair vs. ramp comparison...the stairs are really steep and go from point A to point B...but the ramp takes a much smaller gradient to the top...you travel a hell of a lot farther on the ramp but the output needed to maintain the gradient isn't near as much as the stairs...

Now try that around here and they will be wiping your remains off the front of a car...here they are required to give you two feet clearance...most give around one foot and never slow down...and if they have to cross the line to go around and a car is coming you had better take cover because they are coming back over whether your there or not...they really have a grudge against cyclists...

Sillyoldtwit said:

PS Just found this interesting observation, not the answer you're looking for but nevertheless.....

Same *work*, yes (and same *power* if both ride durations are the same). But if you both want to get to the top at the same time, then the friend has to ride twice as fast (since her route is twice as long). For the given example that's not a problem, but in a case where friction and air resistance are considered, doubling speed might have a noticeable impact on power output.

Consider an example where one rider is climbing straight at 12 mph and the other zig-zags (45-deg or 1.4:1 distance travelled). The zig-zagging rider has to ride at 16.8 mph to hold pace along the road. For slow-speed climbs that's probably not a big deal, but as the speed increases the extra wind resistance and friction of the turns does increase against the zig-zagging rider.

Now, I've seen people zig-zagging because they just couldn't ride straight up the hill with the gearing (and fitness) they had, but that's a different (but still real) issue.

whats the difference in gradient for your example...I don't know the math to calculate the difference but it should be quite a bit...base it on a 7% or something and see what the side to side gradient component would be vs. the straight up gradient...

If you need to weave to get up a climb then..... get some smaller gears. Got a triple on the front of my bike for the good reason that I'm in really bad shape. Drop it down into the 30-25 and you can spin up pretty much anything.

Eldrack said:

If you need to weave to get up a climb then..... get some smaller gears. Got a triple on the front of my bike for the good reason that I'm in really bad shape. Drop it down into the 30-25 and you can spin up pretty much anything.

Dang it I must be really weak!!! 🙂
There are two climbs in my area that I struggle even with a 30-28.:o

Both are short climbs at 21 to 22% gradient. One I can zig zag with a little less effort and I can zig zag on that one because there are no other riders for me to disturb. The other I have only done once and that was Burhalter's Gap and I had to go straight up because of the other riders. Many were walking up the last section so I guess I am not the worst climber in the world.

On Hogpen (category 1 climb on the Tour de Georgia) I use a 30-24 and can manage that climb just fine, but I am still a bit slow.