building a 10 spd cassette -- what gears would YOU put in it?



Peter:
> >><BR><BR>

>
> I don't think you need an 11t even here in Colorado. Do you really spin

out a
> 12t going down hill? Legs moving 120rpm+? Stop pedaling and go faster.
>


I should qualify that by saying that my big chainring is typically 46, 48,
or 50. I would like to have the 11t for the (very few) times that you can
actually use it, and with 10 speeds I would say "why not"?. That said I
mostly run "8 out of 9 on 7" on my bikes, and a 50-12t is my biggest gear.
 

> pbridge wrote in small part:
>
> >Climbs in CO are rarely steep


R15757:

> COUGH....gag!!! Accckkk.
>
> you want to run that one by me again??



He's right. Climbs here are rarely steep, typically not exceeding 6% on main
roads. However steeper grades can be found on minor roads like the road
through Golden Gate Canyon and Hi-Grade Road, a difficult climb which runs
off of South Deer Creek Canyon Road.
 
Bruce Lange wrote:

>He's right. Climbs here are rarely steep, typically not exceeding 6% on
>main
>roads.


On the main HIGHWAYS you mean.

You don't have to look hard for steep paved climbs
in Colorado (steep dirt climbs are pretty much
unavoidable here if you want to ride dirt).

You mentioned Golden Gate. The second tier of
that 3-tier climb is brutal, making it one of the
toughest roads around IMO. I don't think the High Grade
(South fork of Deer Creek Canyon) is particularly
steep. In fact there is steeper stuff on the north
fork. Try Guanella Pass. Magnolia Road. Sugarloaf.
Flagstaff to the reservoir. Left Hand near the top.
Rattlesnake (Pole Mountain Road) near Carter
Lake. Four Mile to Gold Hill (dirt at the top). And
just about every residential road serving the extreme
west sides of all the Front Range cities. That's just
Front Range stuff. No shortage of steeps around
here.

Robert
 
On 30 Jan 2005 17:51:04 GMT, [email protected] (R15757) wrote:

>Bruce Lange wrote:
>
>>He's right. Climbs here are rarely steep, typically not exceeding 6% on
>>main
>>roads.

>
>On the main HIGHWAYS you mean.
>
>You don't have to look hard for steep paved climbs
>in Colorado (steep dirt climbs are pretty much
>unavoidable here if you want to ride dirt).
>
>You mentioned Golden Gate. The second tier of
>that 3-tier climb is brutal, making it one of the
>toughest roads around IMO. I don't think the High Grade
>(South fork of Deer Creek Canyon) is particularly
>steep. In fact there is steeper stuff on the north
>fork. Try Guanella Pass. Magnolia Road. Sugarloaf.
> Flagstaff to the reservoir. Left Hand near the top.
>Rattlesnake (Pole Mountain Road) near Carter
>Lake. Four Mile to Gold Hill (dirt at the top). And
>just about every residential road serving the extreme
>west sides of all the Front Range cities. That's just
>Front Range stuff. No shortage of steeps around
>here.
>
>Robert


Dear Robert,

Click on this:

http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/sonora_pass.htm

and scroll down to the 26% grade warning on Sonora Pass.

I doubt that we're going to impress the Californians.

As far as I know, none of the Colorado roads that you
mention have such grades. The geography, mining history, and
population of Colorado simply didn't combine to create the
kinds of roads found in California and Europe.

Carl Fogel
 
On 30 Jan 2005 16:30:41 GMT, [email protected] (R15757) wrote:

>pbridge wrote in small part:
>
>>Climbs in CO are rarely steep

>
>COUGH....gag!!! Accckkk.
>
>you want to run that one by me again??


I like riding in CO and have done so numerous times and in varying
parts of the state. I'd have to agree that the climbs are long but
usually not that steep. I think I encountered some 11-12% but don't
recall the 15% plus stuff. Climbs in CA are also not generally steep
but there are some roads that go over 15% for some distance.

In my recollection, The Tour of the California Alps, aka The Death
Ride, with all it's fame, I think that the steepest section is a short
bit of 11-12%.
 
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:57:24 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>Click on this:
>
>http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/sonora_pass.htm
>
>and scroll down to the 26% grade warning on Sonora Pass.
>
>I doubt that we're going to impress the Californians.


I've never ridden that piece of road but I have seen the citation many
times. I'm sure the sign is there but I find it difficult to believe
that the road is actually 26% only because so many riders claim that
they negotiated that climb.

I know that people can climb grades like that. Each year there is a
"Fargo Street Hill Climb" put on by the Los Angeles Wheelmen and it
goes up 33% for a couple of hundred yards. Riders do go up. Few on
road bicycles and many aborts. I've actually seen a rider break the
39t chainring off the crankarm there.
 

>In my recollection, The Tour of the California Alps, aka The Death
>Ride, with all it's fame, I think that the steepest section is a short
>bit of 11-12%.


My memory is that the last climb of my Death Ride, which headed upwards at
about mile 145, was stated to be 17%. I think, but am not sure, that we
climbed up 4 to a finish at Lake Alpine. I was pretty fit that summer, and a
42x28 was tough going at mile 150. I happened to drive that road a couple of
years ago, headed downhill from Alpine Lake, and I thought to myself, "this
would be a tough climb on a bike". When I got to Markleeville, I put the
pieces together, and realized that it was a climb that I had done.

Yes, in CO there are exceptions to the "not very steep" claim, but I note that
the majority of the exceptions cited are dirt, which in my mind is a different
game, and I gear differently for it. Many paved roads in the Sierra are
engineered with the knowledge that they will be closed in winter -- hence, they
can be steeper than roads that will be driven with snow and ice on them.

What's the grade going up from Santa Rosa toward Oakville? Not terribly long,
but pretty relentless.

Cheers,

PB
 
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:21:54 GMT, Paul Kopit
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:57:24 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>Click on this:
>>
>>http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/sonora_pass.htm
>>
>>and scroll down to the 26% grade warning on Sonora Pass.
>>
>>I doubt that we're going to impress the Californians.

>
>I've never ridden that piece of road but I have seen the citation many
>times. I'm sure the sign is there but I find it difficult to believe
>that the road is actually 26% only because so many riders claim that
>they negotiated that climb.
>
>I know that people can climb grades like that. Each year there is a
>"Fargo Street Hill Climb" put on by the Los Angeles Wheelmen and it
>goes up 33% for a couple of hundred yards. Riders do go up. Few on
>road bicycles and many aborts. I've actually seen a rider break the
>39t chainring off the crankarm there.


Dear Paul,

I'm having trouble following your logic.

You don't believe a 26% grade California Highway Department
warning sign is accurate because you know of a steeper 33%
climb elsewhere in California that fewer riders can climb?

What's your theory about the 24% grade warning sign from the
same department at Bear Valley?

http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/bearvalley.htm

I'm assuming that you understand that the signs aren't
saying that either road is that steep for its entire length,
just the section at the signs.

You could always ask Jobst Brandt how steep he thinks the
grade is at the 26% sign:

http://groups.google.co.uk/[email protected]&rnum=3
or http://tinyurl.com/4uxbo

His description of the ride and others at rec.bicycles.rides
are well worth reading for anyone who knows him only from
his somewhat more irascible technical posts. Here's his link
to the topo map of the steep section in question:

http://tinyurl.com/2ewcn

You can enlarge the map considerably. That section looks to
be well over 26% according to the contour lines and distance
scale.

Carl Fogel
 
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:10:11 -0700, [email protected]
wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:21:54 GMT, Paul Kopit
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:57:24 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>Click on this:
>>>
>>>http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/sonora_pass.htm
>>>
>>>and scroll down to the 26% grade warning on Sonora Pass.
>>>
>>>I doubt that we're going to impress the Californians.

>>
>>I've never ridden that piece of road but I have seen the citation many
>>times. I'm sure the sign is there but I find it difficult to believe
>>that the road is actually 26% only because so many riders claim that
>>they negotiated that climb.
>>
>>I know that people can climb grades like that. Each year there is a
>>"Fargo Street Hill Climb" put on by the Los Angeles Wheelmen and it
>>goes up 33% for a couple of hundred yards. Riders do go up. Few on
>>road bicycles and many aborts. I've actually seen a rider break the
>>39t chainring off the crankarm there.

>
>Dear Paul,
>
>I'm having trouble following your logic.
>
>You don't believe a 26% grade California Highway Department
>warning sign is accurate because you know of a steeper 33%
>climb elsewhere in California that fewer riders can climb?
>
>What's your theory about the 24% grade warning sign from the
>same department at Bear Valley?
>
>http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/bearvalley.htm
>
>I'm assuming that you understand that the signs aren't
>saying that either road is that steep for its entire length,
>just the section at the signs.
>
>You could always ask Jobst Brandt how steep he thinks the
>grade is at the 26% sign:
>
>http://groups.google.co.uk/[email protected]&rnum=3
>or http://tinyurl.com/4uxbo
>
>His description of the ride and others at rec.bicycles.rides
>are well worth reading for anyone who knows him only from
>his somewhat more irascible technical posts. Here's his link
>to the topo map of the steep section in question:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2ewcn
>
>You can enlarge the map considerably. That section looks to
>be well over 26% according to the contour lines and distance
>scale.
>
>Carl Fogel


Aargh! Some typos can't be ignored: "well over 20%"

Carl Fogel
 
Paul Kopit <[email protected]> writes:

>> Click on this:


>> http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/sonora_pass.htm


>> and scroll down to the 26% grade warning on Sonora Pass.


>> I doubt that we're going to impress the Californians.


> I've never ridden that piece of road but I have seen the citation
> many times. I'm sure the sign is there but I find it difficult to
> believe that the road is actually 26% only because so many riders
> claim that they negotiated that climb.


> I know that people can climb grades like that. Each year there is a
> "Fargo Street Hill Climb" put on by the Los Angeles Wheelmen and it
> goes up 33% for a couple of hundred yards. Riders do go up. Few on
> road bicycles and many aborts. I've actually seen a rider break the
> 39t chainring off the crank there.


I think there is a general misunderstanding of highway gradient signs.
Unless the duration of the grade is given, the number given is the
steepest grade in the section because a motor vehicle that is
traveling slowly must be able to overcome that slope. For bicyclists,
long 12% grades are daunting unless there are at least short breaks of
lesser gradient.

In the case of Sonora pass, it has steep sections of 16% and some
short ones of 20%. The 26% section is on the uphill part of the east
slope on the inside of the first hairpin at the Levitt Meadows Pack
station. It is not difficult to ride up this piece but the following
half mile is tough although less than 16%.

What is striking about this piece of road is that it cannot be seen
from below because it is hidden by a hairpin turn in a deep cut. When
motorcycles pass as one approaches the section they soon sound like
aircraft as they rapidly gain elevation at a rate that is hard to
believe and that is why one gets the impression they have become
airborne.

From Sonora, a common starting point for rides over this pass, it is
more than 60 miles to the base of the real climb and after about
7000ft of climbing so riders are not approaching this from flatlands.
It is a scenicly rewarding ride with immense vistas along the way,
most of which many "death riders" never see or care for. I find it
one of the most memorable routes and enjoy it every time. I can
recommend it:

http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/SierraSpring.htm

I have done similar trips in both direction since 1993 and am always
inspired by the great landscape realiziong that the area was logges
with Shay steam engins about 90 years ago all the way to the top.
That was unusual railroading that is beautifully chronicled by Hank
Johnston.

http://www.gearedsteam.com/books/rr-logging-06.htm

Sonora pass lies in beautiful setting and unlike Yosemite, has rushing
water in its creeks all year. It is a road hard to understand as
having been built by highway engineers for its surprise steep and
hidden curves and overall steepness. Descending from the summit
eastward, over 50mph are easily achieved in the dip after which hard
uphill braking on an 18% grade is needed to make the hidden curve
after the crest of the rise. My first impression years ago was that
the California Highway Department would soon cut a new alignment.
Perish the thought! This is a historical enigma as is Pacific Grade
on Ebbetts Pass.

Spring is on the way and the passes will be open for another season of
great bicycling.

http://mthamilton.ucolick.org/public/pictures/snowpics/
http://mthamilton.ucolick.org/hamcam/

Long live Sonora Pass!

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Bruce-<< I should qualify that by saying that my big chainring is typically 46,
48,
or 50. I would like to have the 11t for the (very few) times that you can
actually use it, and with 10 speeds I would say "why not"?. That said I
mostly run "8 out of 9 on 7" on my bikes, and a 50-12t is my biggest gear
>><BR><BR>


I say-mille grazie, that does make all the difference BUT I live and ride in
Colorado and use a 50-39 with a 13-24 rear...and I don't spin out in the
50-13...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:10:11 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>You don't believe a 26% grade California Highway Department
>warning sign is accurate because you know of a steeper 33%
>climb elsewhere in California that fewer riders can climb?
>
>What's your theory about the 24% grade warning sign from the
>same department at Bear Valley?


I wrote unclearly. I beleive the signs but think that the actual
grades are lower. I did the one in Bear Valley and, because I was
able to do it, I think the sign optimistic.
 
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:10:11 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>http://tinyurl.com/2ewcn
>
>You can enlarge the map considerably. That section looks to
>be well over 26% according to the contour lines and distance
>scale.


Everything checks out. One day I'll go there and see it I can go up
too.
 
On 31 Jan 2005 00:58:08 GMT, [email protected] (PBridge130) wrote:

>What's the grade going up from Santa Rosa toward Oakville? Not terribly long,
>but pretty relentless.


That is the shallow direction. From Oakville towards Santa Rosa has a
section of 0.8 miles of 18%.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> On 30 Jan 2005 17:51:04 GMT, [email protected] (R15757) wrote:
>
> >Bruce Lange wrote:
> >
> >>He's right. Climbs here are rarely steep, typically not exceeding

6% on
> >>main
> >>roads.

> >
> >On the main HIGHWAYS you mean.
> >
> >You don't have to look hard for steep paved climbs
> >in Colorado (steep dirt climbs are pretty much
> >unavoidable here if you want to ride dirt).
> >
> >You mentioned Golden Gate. The second tier of
> >that 3-tier climb is brutal, making it one of the
> >toughest roads around IMO. I don't think the High Grade
> >(South fork of Deer Creek Canyon) is particularly
> >steep. In fact there is steeper stuff on the north
> >fork. Try Guanella Pass. Magnolia Road. Sugarloaf.
> > Flagstaff to the reservoir. Left Hand near the top.
> >Rattlesnake (Pole Mountain Road) near Carter
> >Lake. Four Mile to Gold Hill (dirt at the top). And
> >just about every residential road serving the extreme
> >west sides of all the Front Range cities. That's just
> >Front Range stuff. No shortage of steeps around
> >here.
> >
> >Robert

>
> Dear Robert,
>
> Click on this:
>
> http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/sonora_pass.htm
>
> and scroll down to the 26% grade warning on Sonora Pass.
>
> I doubt that we're going to impress the Californians.



Carl, I gather you've never tried to ride your bike up
any of the roads I mentioned.

> As far as I know, none of the Colorado roads that you
> mention have such grades.


All the roads I mentioned have sustained pitches well in the
teens and are just plain brutally steep. If Sonora hits 26%
it is just for a short stretch. I've never ridden it, but I will
have to now obviously.

> The geography, mining history, and
> population of Colorado simply didn't combine to create the
> kinds of roads found in California and Europe.


If you mean mining roads that go straight up, we have plenty
of 'em, it's just that ours tend not to be paved, so road
bikers are scared of em.

Good examples are Imogene and Mosquito. I wonder if Imogene has
an equal in difficulty anywhere in Europe or the US. There is the
added bonus that these climbs start at elevations where the Cali
and Euro passes top out.

Robert
 
PBridge130 wrote:

>> In my recollection, The Tour of the California Alps, aka The Death
>> Ride, with all it's fame, I think that the steepest section is a
>> short bit of 11-12%.

>
> My memory is that the last climb of my Death Ride, which headed
> upwards at about mile 145, was stated to be 17%. I think, but am not
> sure, that we climbed up 4 to a finish at Lake Alpine. I was pretty
> fit that summer, and a 42x28 was tough going at mile 150. I happened
> to drive that road a couple of years ago, headed downhill from Alpine
> Lake, and I thought to myself, "this would be a tough climb on a
> bike". When I got to Markleeville, I put the pieces together, and
> realized that it was a climb that I had done.
>
> Yes, in CO there are exceptions to the "not very steep" claim, but I
> note that the majority of the exceptions cited are dirt, which in my
> mind is a different game, and I gear differently for it. Many paved
> roads in the Sierra are engineered with the knowledge that they will
> be closed in winter -- hence, they can be steeper than roads that
> will be driven with snow and ice on them.
>
> What's the grade going up from Santa Rosa toward Oakville? Not
> terribly long, but pretty relentless.



Why don't y'all come ride our Mountains of Misery this spring?

http://www.mountainsofmisery.com/MoM.html

The double metric has three big climbs with sustained grades over 10%, and parts
much steeper. The final climb to Mountain Lake has a 16% grade in the middle of
3 miles of 10%-plus, which is a killer after 124 miles and over 10,000' of
climbing.

The Wilderness Road Ride the day before is no slouch either.

It's hilly around here!

Matt O.
 
marco007esq wrote:

> Living in Florida, you really don't need a triple... and my bike didnt
> come with one... but, occasionally I'm dragging ass on one of our few
> hills out in Clermont and wish that I had a bigger cog to get me over
> the hump.
>
> I'm looking at just assembling a good wide range cassette with a sissy
> cog on it at the end. But I don't want to give up my 11.
> What do you think? 11-13-14-15-16-18-21-23-25-27?


The 11-13 is a huge jump. You need a 12 in there, even for a mountain bike.

If you really think you need 10 rear gears, Campy's 13-29 is just about right.
If you live in Florida, a straight 13-23 would be fine. Sometimes fine
adjustments make headwinds less demoralizing.

With so many rear gears, I'm tempted to eliminate a chainring. A friend of mine
built a commuter bike with a single ring and a MTB cassette. It had as wide a
range and gaps no wider than a typical 6sp road bike, like we all rode just a
few years prior.

Matt O.
 
On 31 Jan 2005 13:15:14 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>
>[email protected] wrote:
>> On 30 Jan 2005 17:51:04 GMT, [email protected] (R15757) wrote:
>>
>> >Bruce Lange wrote:
>> >
>> >>He's right. Climbs here are rarely steep, typically not exceeding

>6% on
>> >>main
>> >>roads.
>> >
>> >On the main HIGHWAYS you mean.
>> >
>> >You don't have to look hard for steep paved climbs
>> >in Colorado (steep dirt climbs are pretty much
>> >unavoidable here if you want to ride dirt).
>> >
>> >You mentioned Golden Gate. The second tier of
>> >that 3-tier climb is brutal, making it one of the
>> >toughest roads around IMO. I don't think the High Grade
>> >(South fork of Deer Creek Canyon) is particularly
>> >steep. In fact there is steeper stuff on the north
>> >fork. Try Guanella Pass. Magnolia Road. Sugarloaf.
>> > Flagstaff to the reservoir. Left Hand near the top.
>> >Rattlesnake (Pole Mountain Road) near Carter
>> >Lake. Four Mile to Gold Hill (dirt at the top). And
>> >just about every residential road serving the extreme
>> >west sides of all the Front Range cities. That's just
>> >Front Range stuff. No shortage of steeps around
>> >here.
>> >
>> >Robert

>>
>> Dear Robert,
>>
>> Click on this:
>>
>> http://www.chainreactionbicycles.com/sonora_pass.htm
>>
>> and scroll down to the 26% grade warning on Sonora Pass.
>>
>> I doubt that we're going to impress the Californians.

>
>
>Carl, I gather you've never tried to ride your bike up
>any of the roads I mentioned.
>
>> As far as I know, none of the Colorado roads that you
>> mention have such grades.

>
>All the roads I mentioned have sustained pitches well in the
>teens and are just plain brutally steep. If Sonora hits 26%
>it is just for a short stretch. I've never ridden it, but I will
>have to now obviously.
>
>> The geography, mining history, and
>> population of Colorado simply didn't combine to create the
>> kinds of roads found in California and Europe.

>
>If you mean mining roads that go straight up, we have plenty
>of 'em, it's just that ours tend not to be paved, so road
>bikers are scared of em.
>
>Good examples are Imogene and Mosquito. I wonder if Imogene has
>an equal in difficulty anywhere in Europe or the US. There is the
>added bonus that these climbs start at elevations where the Cali
>and Euro passes top out.
>
>Robert


Dear Robert,

Sorry, but I doubt that you'll find a paved road in Colorado
to impress an experienced California rider like Jobst. Nor
do I think that Jobst would be scared of the dirt mining
roads that you mention.

As for the unpaved roads, I suspect that you'd still have a
hard time impressing Californians with Colorado's roads--the
geography and the road-building pressure was simply much
greater when California was mining.

As for wondering whether Colorado trails like Imogene have
an equal in difficulty in Europe, here's where you can do a
little browsing and widen your experience:

http://ciclismo.sitiasp.it/motore.a...&ID=4&da=az&come=af&lingua=eng&commenti=False

Select "difficulty" and then select "all" and here's what
the database considers the most difficult climb submitted so
far:

http://www.salite.ch/scanuppia.htm

True, it starts at only around 600 feet about sea level and
is only about 4 miles long, but the average grade is 17.6%
and the profile shows about a kilometer at 25% to 28%.

In Europe, bicycling is taken much more seriously by far
more people living in mountains with much denser roads, so
such profiles are quite common on the internet.

Here's another impressive profile:

http://www.salite.ch/nebelhorn.htm

Notice the two km at over 20% grade just before the top.

If you have any links to profiles of Colorado climbs with
this kind of detail, we'll have a better chance of
convincing people that they should be daunted by the climbs
here in Colorado. Mike Prendergast would certainly
appreciate it if you'd get some details and submit them for
his Colorado Climbs database:

http://www.rmccrides.com/ClimbDB/climb_frame.html

But without something besides seat-of-the-pants claims, we
just sound insular when we start talking about how tough
things are around here. As far as I can tell, the only
people who think that Colorado is bristling with bicycle
climbs of unparalleled difficulty, paved or otherwise, are
people who haven't ridden much in California or the Alps.

Carl Fogel
 
Kenny wrote:

> test


Disturbance in progress. Please do not test.

Thank You,

Management