Broken Collar Bone

Quoted message said:

Amazing how much can change in a fraction of a second. Wish I had a do-over.

So sorry to heear of your accident.

I do hope all goes well and you can make your trip!

Never broken anything except my big toe, so my experience is of little help.

Good luck and best wishes.

http://members.aol.com/foxcondorsrvtns
(Colorado rental condo)

http://members.aol.com/dnvrfox
(Family Web Page)

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Chuck Anderson said:

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate? Should I hold
out hope for a cycling camping trip in July? (My Lufthansa ticket *is*
restricted, but they said I can get a full refund with a medical
certificate.) Any therapy I should consider?

Broke my collarbones 3 times. One of those I flew two days later, not
that I was free ofpain butso it goes. You should be more comfortable
after a week or two, and I expect you're younger than i was.

--
"The web has got me caught. I'd rather have the blues than what I've
got." <via Nat King Cole>

Sorry I don't have any advice. I've never had a broken bone.
My youngest daughter did break a collar bone when she was a teenager and I
don't remember it keeping her from too many activities. Hopefully you'll
have the same experience.

Hope it heals soon and you can do the trip.

Beverly

"Chuck Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%D8tc.116868$536.21977098@attbi_s03...

Quoted message said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself so severely.
Last Friday I was riding too aggressively, hammering away when I pegged
the inside pedal on a tight curve (I was pedaling - du-uh) and crashed
hard. I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had purchased my plane
ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 - return July 27). Now I don't know
if I'll be able to make that trip. They way I feel today (5 days later),
arm in a sling and still feeling very very very tender and sensitive, it
seems unlikely.

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months to heal. And
even if I do heal enough to ride (July 5 is still 5 ½ weeks a way), I
don't know if I would be ready to sleep on the ground in my tent. The
Emergency Room doc said 4 - 6 weeks. Some online searches have indicated
it could be months.

The doctor said that there was nothing that should be done for the break
(other than immobilize my arm in a sling). The collar bone is the most
"mendable" bone in the body, and the two pieces of bone will find their
way back together and mend on their own. It seems odd, but all research
I've done indicated that is so.

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate? Should I hold
out hope for a cycling camping trip in July? (My Lufthansa ticket *is*
restricted, but they said I can get a full refund with a medical
certificate.) Any therapy I should consider?

Amazing how much can change in a fraction of a second. Wish I had a

do-over.

Quoted message said:

(I am seeing an orthopedic doctor on Friday, so hopefully he can tell me
more.)

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

Norm said:

X-No-Archive: Yes

Chuck Anderson said:

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate? Should I hold
out hope for a cycling camping trip in July? (My Lufthansa ticket *is*
restricted, but they said I can get a full refund with a medical
certificate.) Any therapy I should consider?

Broke my collarbones 3 times. One of those I flew two days later, not
that I was free of pain but so it goes. You should be more comfortable
after a week or two, and I expect you're younger than i was.

I was trying to avoid that issue. Let's just say that I'm in the first
half of my fifties. I'm in pretty good shape, though, and on the young
side for my age (good genes).

I know I wouldn't want to be flying anywhere just quite yet (even a ride
in the car can get too bumpy). I still look forward to those couple of
Vicodins later at night to eliminate that deep aching. ("I like Vike."
..... ... could give away my age - if you know what that's from.)

It's nice to hear encouraging words. Thanks. I've only ever sprained an
ankle and a wrist. Broke my thumb at about age 10 (in of all things a
bike accident - of sorts). This feels traumatic - and feeling (even
seeing) the end of that broken bone is a little creepy. Watching someone
take a body slam in a movie or TV show makes me cringe inside out - - -
owwwwww!

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

2.5 years and my collar bone is healed about 50%. For most of that time, it
had only healed 20%. My non-union is fairly rare, but it was the last 1" of
bone, just like yours. From what I understand, collar bone non-unions are
less rare when you get out near the end like that. I had to use two
different electro-stimulation units to help bone growth.

' hope your recovery goes better than mine.

-Bob

Chuck Anderson said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself so severely.
Last Friday I was riding too aggressively, hammering away when I pegged
the inside pedal on a tight curve (I was pedaling - du-uh) and crashed
hard. I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had purchased my plane
ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 - return July 27). Now I don't know
if I'll be able to make that trip. They way I feel today (5 days later),
arm in a sling and still feeling very very very tender and sensitive, it
seems unlikely.

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months to heal. And
even if I do heal enough to ride (July 5 is still 5 =BD weeks a way), I
don't know if I would be ready to sleep on the ground in my tent. The
Emergency Room doc said 4 - 6 weeks. Some online searches have indicated
it could be months.

The doctor said that there was nothing that should be done for the break
(other than immobilize my arm in a sling). The collar bone is the most
"mendable" bone in the body, and the two pieces of bone will find their
way back together and mend on their own. It seems odd, but all research
I've done indicated that is so.

You should have a figure 8 brace that pulls your shoulders back, With out
that, the collarbone will heal short and your shoulder will be pulled
forward.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate? Should I hold
out hope for a cycling camping trip in July? (My Lufthansa ticket *is*
restricted, but they said I can get a full refund with a medical
certificate.) Any therapy I should consider?

Go ahead and do your tour!

I broke my left collarbone - in two places about 2" apart - eight year ago
next week - on Memorial Day - on the first day of my first cross country
ride. I was in Oregon, and planned to ride back to North Carolina. The Dr
said wear this figure eight brace and in three or four months you'll be
fine. I said 'What a way to waste a summer!"

I broke my collarbone on Monday. On Wednesday I rigged my bike so I could
shift the front derailleur with my right hand - thumb shifter - and use
the front brake with my right hand. I also took off my aerobars - no way I
could use them!- and raised the handlebars level with the seat. It was
painful working on my bike, but I managed. On Friday I continued my trip
across the country. There were several painful moments on the ride, but I
think I probably hurt much less than I would have if I abandoned my trip.
I camped several times in the first few weeks. I was a challenge putting
up my tent, but sleeping was OK. I had to sleep on my back all summer and
for several months into the fall. Other than that, I was able to use my
left arm fairly normally after I finished my tour <grin>.

See http://www.cs.unca.edu/~boyd/touring/tour96/crossusa.html for the ride
report.

=09Mark <http://www.cs.unca.edu/~boyd/bicycling.html>

PS Tomorrow I fly to Portland and Saturday through Monday I'll be visiting
the folks who helped me when I broke my collarbone. This will be the
fourth time I've been in Dallas Oregon by bicycle. Well, the first time I
arrived in an ambulance, but I left, four days later, on my bicycle.

Chuck Anderson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:%D8tc.116868$536.21977098@attbi_s03:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate? Should I
hold out hope for a cycling camping trip in July? (My Lufthansa
ticket *is* restricted, but they said I can get a full refund with
a medical certificate.) Any therapy I should consider?

I found that I could ride gingerly after about 4 weeks and progress was
swift from there on....you have roughly 5 1/2, tough decision.

Chuck Anderson said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself so severely.
Last Friday I was riding too aggressively, hammering away when I pegged
the inside pedal on a tight curve (I was pedaling - du-uh) and crashed
hard. I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had purchased my plane
ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 - return July 27). Now I don't know
if I'll be able to make that trip. They way I feel today (5 days later),
arm in a sling and still feeling very very very tender and sensitive, it
seems unlikely.

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months to heal. And
even if I do heal enough to ride (July 5 is still 5 ½ weeks a way), I
don't know if I would be ready to sleep on the ground in my tent. The
Emergency Room doc said 4 - 6 weeks. Some online searches have indicated
it could be months.

The doctor said that there was nothing that should be done for the break
(other than immobilize my arm in a sling). The collar bone is the most
"mendable" bone in the body, and the two pieces of bone will find their
way back together and mend on their own. It seems odd, but all research
I've done indicated that is so.

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate? Should I hold
out hope for a cycling camping trip in July? (My Lufthansa ticket *is*
restricted, but they said I can get a full refund with a medical
certificate.) Any therapy I should consider?

Amazing how much can change in a fraction of a second. Wish I had a do-over.

(I am seeing an orthopedic doctor on Friday, so hopefully he can tell me
more.)

Sorry to hear about my accident. My wife came off her bike and broke her
left collarbone last August, probably even closer to the end than you. She
had surgery to put a plate into it. (Search on google for clavicle hook
plate.) She was running (slowly) within 7 days and we went on holiday
after 3 weeks. We were cycling on steep alpine roads and tracks and she
was fine apart from a slight miscomfort after long descents. She's a bit
younger than you and the surgery may not be an option for you but it does
suggest that the injury need not stop your holiday.

The orthopaedic specialist will undoubtedly be able to consider all your
options.
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "He had delusions of adequacy." - Walter Kerr
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

I have broken two of them, one on each side. The first healed rather
quickly, 6 weeks, the other took forever, 6 mos. Once the soft tissue
damage heals, within a week, you should feel much more comfortable.
As sugggested, get a figure 8 strap, the sooner the better. You will
feel much more comfortable. As far as riding, the doctor warned me
against it saying if I crash I could make matters much worse.
However, he did say that riding itself would do nothing. Good luck

Jim

Chuck Anderson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<%D8tc.116868$536.21977098@attbi_s03>...

Quoted message said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself so severely.
Last Friday I was riding too aggressively, hammering away when I pegged
the inside pedal on a tight curve (I was pedaling - du-uh) and crashed
hard. I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had purchased my plane
ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 - return July 27). Now I don't know
if I'll be able to make that trip. They way I feel today (5 days later),
arm in a sling and still feeling very very very tender and sensitive, it
seems unlikely.

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months to heal. And
even if I do heal enough to ride (July 5 is still 5 ½ weeks a way), I
don't know if I would be ready to sleep on the ground in my tent. The
Emergency Room doc said 4 - 6 weeks. Some online searches have indicated
it could be months.

The doctor said that there was nothing that should be done for the break
(other than immobilize my arm in a sling). The collar bone is the most
"mendable" bone in the body, and the two pieces of bone will find their
way back together and mend on their own. It seems odd, but all research
I've done indicated that is so.

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate? Should I hold
out hope for a cycling camping trip in July? (My Lufthansa ticket *is*
restricted, but they said I can get a full refund with a medical
certificate.) Any therapy I should consider?

Amazing how much can change in a fraction of a second. Wish I had a do-over.

(I am seeing an orthopedic doctor on Friday, so hopefully he can tell me
more.)

Watching someone

Quoted message said:

take a body slam in a movie or TV show makes me cringe inside out - - -
owwwwww!

I know what you mean. I sprained an ACL a couple of years ago skiing and
now it's fine - except that it hurts when I'm watching a football game
and someone twists their knee....

Anyway, can't give you specific advice for the collerbone, but I found
for my knee that it helped to have a good sports-medicine orthopedist
(mine had previous experience with professional baseball and football
teams). If you need physical therapy, find a PT that is into
sports-medicine.

Hope you heal fast and can get back on the bike soon.

Janet

Chuck,

Ask your doc if calcium supplements will help. Probably couldn't hurt.
From what I've read, there is NO benefit from calcium supplements being
made from oyster shell, egg shell or even emotional shell.

Tom Dillon
Lakewood, CO
Z to S for email.

Chuck Anderson said:

.... I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had purchased my plane
ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 - return July 27). Now I don't know
if I'll be able to make that trip. They way I feel today (5 days later),
arm in a sling and still feeling very very very tender and sensitive, it
seems unlikely.

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months to heal. And

I guess I was lucky, although I didn't think so at the time. Crashed
my bike (it involved a chasing dog). Two bent wheels, one broken
clavicle and road rash. The ER doctor just took an X-ray, put on a
figure-8 bandage and said it would take 3 or 4 weeks to heal. The most
painful days were in the first week - rolling over the wrong way in bed
really hurt!

The figure-8 bandage didn't restrict motion very much. Amazing
that it holds the bone in place! I could use my left hand for light work.

After about 2 weeks it felt much better. I waited 4 weeks before a
return visit to a doctor for checkup- maybe it would have been OK after
3 weeks. I hadn't looked at my bike in 4 weeks, then it took a week to
get the wheels fixed. 5 weeks after the crash I went on a 100 km ride.
The hardest things were carrying my bike ( up a flight of stairs to my
apartment) and using a hand pump- fortunately I didn't get any flat
tires the next few weeks!

In 4 weeks I had turned into a "couch potato"! Fortunately, I walked
about 4 km a day to work, shopping etc, so that saved my legs. It was
amazing how much my left arm muscles atrophied. It took months to build
up that arm again. I probably should have done some mild exercises.

I'm not sure if taking calcium supplements and vitamin D will speed
healing of bone.

I can still feel a little bump in my left clavicle, 30 years later.
Somewhere I think I read that the bone may actually become thicker and
stronger after healing!

I'm sure I've heard about pro hockey players breaking clavicles
and playing games the next day!- probably pro bike racers too!

With luck you should be OK by July 5.

--

David Dermott , Wolfville Ridge, Nova Scotia, Canada
email: [email hidden]
WWW pages: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/dermott/

Quoted message said:

hard. I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had purchased my plane
ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 - return July 27). Now I don't know
The doctor said that there was nothing that should be done for the break
(other than immobilize my arm in a sling). The collar bone is the most
"mendable" bone in the body, and the two pieces of bone will find their
way back together and mend on their own.

I broke mine 15mm from the end 3 years ago at the age of 45.I was off
my bike for 8 weeks and rode carefully with no pedal dancing for
another 8weeks. I would say that it is not clear that you would find
sleeping on the ground tolerable as soon as 5 july.
As for it healing so easily, I am a doctor, and seeing the perfect
alignment I had pulled it into at the scene of the crash while it was
still numb(ish) I expected no problem.Actually the x-ray 8weeks later
looked much worse due to bone resorption.The orthopaedic surgeons said
that at my age a fracture so near the end might never heal, and they
would have screwed it together.Indeed they were offering it at the
start. A young person will heal much quicker.I was not in a hurry and
did not fancy surgery for the sake of a few months discomfort.That was
not a bad decision except that it was 2years before I could swim more
than a mile without the fracture site loosening up with clicks and
rattles.It is fine now.
If you really want to go as planned I would say surgical fixation
right now is the best bet.The Aussie rider in the TdF a few years ago
had his fixed although young and not fractured so near the end,
presumably so that he could be sure of getting back into training
quickly ( and surely not only because he was so well insured?).
Talking of insurance, if it loosens up and gets really disabling in
germany could you just find something less macho to do? Your travel
insurance probably won't be much use.
Good luck, and when you do go, enjoy your trip.

Whichever you do it will fine eventually

TerryJ

I frqactured my right arm's radial head, plus a small bone in my hand, and
disrupted my shoulder's socket in a car-bike incident where the driver was
at fault.

I foumd that although the things healed, they remained sensitive to any
movements that had weight or inordinate coordinations involved. Thus
sleeping in a tent could be a problem, not so much in poain intensity as in
tiresome awakenings of the physical kind (as op-posed to spiritual
awakenings, haha).

Quoted message said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself so severely.
Last Friday I was riding too aggressively, hammering away when I pegged
the inside pedal on a tight curve (I was pedaling - du-uh) and crashed
hard. I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

[censored], sorry for you.

Quoted message said:

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months to heal. And
even if I do heal enough to ride (July 5 is still 5 ½ weeks a way), I
don't know if I would be ready to sleep on the ground in my tent. The
Emergency Room doc said 4 - 6 weeks. Some online searches have indicated
it could be months.

I would bet on that it would be ok after 4 - 6 weeks if they said so. If it
comes to the worst you can still cancel a week or two before departure.

Per
http://lowdin.nu

Chuck Anderson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<%D8tc.116868$536.21977098@attbi_s03>...

Quoted message said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself so severely.
Last Friday I was riding too aggressively, hammering away when I pegged
the inside pedal on a tight curve (I was pedaling - du-uh) and crashed
hard. I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

At age 46, I broke my left collarbone, 3 ribs, and my shoulder blade
in 1995 when I was hit by a car (while commuting to work on my road
bike). I had surgery to place a temporary pin in the collarbone
(through the left shoulder). The pin was removed six weeks later.
During the time the pin was in place my left arm was immobolized by a
sling.

After the pin was removed, my left shoulder couldn't move (because I
was immobilized) and I needed "rotator cuff" physical therapy, which I
started immediately after the pin was removed. In retrospect, I should
have started physical therapy a lot sooner. I was able to ride a
mountain bike five months after the accident (I couldn't stretch out
on the road bike) and was able to ride my road bike after 7 months.
After 7 months, I no longer needed physical therapy, at which point I
felt about 80% of normal. After 12 months I felt
95-98% of normal.

Good luck and a speedy recovery. I recommend looking into physical
therapy as soon as possible (if needed).

Lewis

Hi all,

I want to thank everyone for their responses. I have learned a lot from
your experiences, and I really appreciate all your sentiments. This has
been (and will be) a rough time for me. Cycling had become like my
religion during the last year - relinking me with my inner self whenever
the day to day world had me dazed and confused. I was riding harder
than ever and was in better shape than I'd ever been in before.

Now - Nothing - Nada - Zip - - - and I must admit. It's hard keeping a
clear focus without my quality cycling time. I had been worried that I
was being a little obsessive about getting in a good hard ride every
day, but now I don't give it a second thought. I just miss it.

I made it into my follow up exam a week after the crash and the doctor
said that breaks like mine are the kind that *can* have a hard time
mending - not that it would, but in cases where there is trouble, it is
a break like mine (bone broken off close to the end). His follow up
X-ray didn't seem to show any healing after a week.

(And when I picked up the ER X-rays and the radiologist's review of them
- done within 24 hours of the pictures being taken - I discovered that I
had also cracked my third rib (left side). That was "*good*" news, as
I'd been having (still have) some serious pain in that area - front and
back - which had caused me no little amount of worry. That cracked rib
has really given me the most pain.)

The doc put me in a figure 8 brace (strap? - sling?) and said, "come
back in a month."

I am not very happy with that, but I'm going to call back and see if I
can't come in sooner, as I would like to know where I am a in less time
than that.

As much as I appreciate the encouragement to go on my planned tour this
summer I just don't think I'm going to be able to handle it. It's rare
that I have the time and money to go overseas and cycle and I want to do
it in more "optimum" conditions - not restless nights trying to sleep
comfortably - or being constantly on alert to avoid rough treatment to
my left arm and shoulder. At this point, I'm worried more about whether
I'll even heal in the next few weeks, or need more treatment (the follow
up doc used the word surgery).

I am about ready to get a refund for the plane ticket (possible with
Lufthansa and a Medical certificate). I haven't completely decided yet,
but after seeing the doc (he was pretty convinced that I would not be
ready in one month), I think I should bag it.

Every time I think of the crash I want to kick myself for being my own
worst enemy. How could I lose focus like that and cause such a major
injury? ....... I guess all of the "wounds" will heal with time.

Thank you for all your information and thoughts. I'll let you know how
it goes over the next few weeks.

Chuck

(How is Germany in early September? I know the alps can be impassible
by then. Maybe I should rethink and go somewhere like Crete at that time.)

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

Chuck Anderson said:

I made it into my follow up exam a week after the crash and the
doctor said that breaks like mine are the kind that *can* have a
hard time mending - not that it would, but in cases where there is
trouble, it is a break like mine (bone broken off close to the end).
His follow up X-ray didn't seem to show any healing after a week.

That may be a bit soon to see anything. It takes at least six weeks
and then some before sensitivity abates. This is good because even
then you won't overload it.

Quoted message said:

(And when I picked up the ER X-rays and the radiologist's review of

them > - done within 24 hours of the pictures being taken - I
discovered that I > had also cracked my third rib (left side). That
was "*good*" news, as > I'd been having (still have) some serious pain
in that area - front and > back - which had caused me no little amount
of worry. That cracked rib > has really given me the most pain.)

Ribs hurt for a long time with the same protective pain but they
usually don't stop you from riding. I rode much of this winter with a
cracked rib that finally quit bothering me after eight weeks. The old
joke is "Don't make me laugh" because that hurts. You'll be surprised
that sneezes that are otherwise unsuppressible are easily suppressed
if you have a cracked rib. It's hard to believe but that's what I and
friends have experienced.

Quoted message said:

The doc put me in a figure 8 brace (strap? - sling?) and said, "come
back in a month."

That's good and a month is fine from my experience with such things.
It won't be mended by that time but it is worth it for him to look at
it.

Quoted message said:

I am not very happy with that, but I'm going to call back and see if
I can't come in sooner, as I would like to know where I am a in less
time than that.

I doubt that he will be interested in your attempt to accelerate
healing. Just be careful when you ride learning to brake with your
good hand over the brake hood. I've ridden many miles that way with
the busted arm am my hip or thigh.

Quoted message said:

As much as I appreciate the encouragement to go on my planned tour
this summer I just don't think I'm going to be able to handle it.
It's rare that I have the time and money to go overseas and cycle
and I want to do it in more "optimum" conditions - not restless
nights trying to sleep comfortably - or being constantly on alert to
avoid rough treatment to my left arm and shoulder. At this point,
I'm worried more about whether I'll even heal in the next few weeks,
or need more treatment (the follow up doc used the word surgery).

Don't worry, you cannot affect that. Just take your time. By the
way, the Stelvio pass was open until Christmas 2003 just to give you
an idea when winter closes the Alps. In contrast, remember, it can
snow any day of the year on the big passes (2000+m) and it does on
almost all my tours. I have also seen flocks of Swifts trying to get
over the Gotthard pass in a snowstorm as they circled in Hospental in
mid August. Weather is Variable.

Quoted message said:

I am about ready to get a refund for the plane ticket (possible with
Lufthansa and a Medical certificate). I haven't completely decided
yet, but after seeing the doc (he was pretty convinced that I would
not be ready in one month), I think I should bag it.

Well I missed when you planned to go but I wouldn't cancel the whole
idea until about eight weeks from the break.

Quoted message said:

Every time I think of the crash I want to kick myself for being my
own worst enemy. How could I lose focus like that and cause such a
major injury?... I guess all of the "wounds" will heal with time.

Sure will!

Quoted message said:

(How is Germany in early September? I know the alps can be
impassable by then. Maybe I should rethink and go somewhere like
Crete at that time.)

Forget about Germany, that could be rainy any time but South Tirol and
the Dolomites is worth a stab at that time.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Chuck Anderson said:

(How is Germany in early September? I know the alps can be impassible
by then. Maybe I should rethink and go somewhere like Crete at that time.)

No, the Alps aren't impassable in September. We go on holiday in June and
September and I wouldn't say that the weather is noticeably different. You
can get bad weather at any time. The main problem with September is that
the days are already shorter. We've been both north and south of the Alps
in September and had awful weather. We've also had excellent weather.
I've been completely rained out in Munich in August and South Tyrol in
early September. It just depends on which way the weather systems are
moving. If you're after sun then Crete or Cyprus or southern Italy
(Sicily?) or Spain would be more reliable, I'm sure. Mind you, I've been
on Sardinia in September and found it very cold!

I would never suggest to anyone that there is an ideal time of year to
visit most parts of Europe!
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter
saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
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