Brining Question - Corned Beef

"Damsel in dis Dress" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if the follow recipe can be modified to reduce the amount of
salt in the brine. If so, what's the minimum salt that I can get away
with?

And can any or all of the sugar be replaced by Splenda? I'm just not sure
what the various ingredients contribute to the process. TIA

Some things just have to be. Don't screw up a time tested process with
Splenda and reduce the salt to risk improper curing that can put your health
at risk. These numbers are not guesses, they are centuries old procedures.

Very little of the sugar will end up in the meat. Splenda is an unknown
chemical (in this process) yet and I'd not risk it in curing meats. Same
with the salt. Only the amount needed will be absorbed and retained after a
soak and rinse. Less will not cure properly during those 8 to 12 days.
Improperly cure meat can go bad. It is not there just for flavor, it is to
preserve the meat from spoilage.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

Damsel in dis Dress said:

I'm wondering if the follow recipe can be modified to reduce the
amount of salt in the brine. If so, what's the minimum salt that I
can get away with?

And can any or all of the sugar be replaced by Splenda? I'm just not
sure what the various ingredients contribute to the process. TIA

* Exported from MasterCook *

Corned Beef

Recipe By :Bruce Aidells and Denis Kelly
Serving Size : 8 Preparation Time :0:00
Categories : beef brines/rubs/marinades

Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method
-------- ------------ --------------------------------
---Brining---
2 quarts water -- or more if needed
1 1/4 cups kosher salt
1 cup sugar
3 tablespoons pickling spice
7 pounds beef bottom round -- trimmed of fat
---Cooking---
1 medium onion
3 whole cloves
3 cloves garlic
1 carrot -- coarsely chopped
1 celery rib -- coarsely chopped
3 bay leaves
1 teaspoon peppercorns

1. Bring water to a boil in a saucepan. Add salt and sugar, and
stir to dissolve. Stir in pickling spices. Allow to cool to room
temperature, then refrigerate until cooled to 45ºF.

2. Pour brine into a large bowl or crock and submerge the meat in it,
making sure it stays under the surface by using a heavy plate as a
weight. Refrigerate for 8 to 12 days. Stir the brine each day, and
turn the beef occasionally.

3. To cook the corned beef, remove the meat from the brine and put
it in a large pot. Cover with water and add the vegetables, bay
leaves, and peppercorns. Simmer over low heat until tender, 2-1/2 to
3 hours, or more if necessary.

4. Thinly slice across the grain and serve hot or cold.

Source:
"The Complete Meat Cookbook"
Copyright:
"1998 Houghton Mifflin Company"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- -

Per serving: 948 Calories (kcal); 54g Total Fat; (52% calories from
fat); 81g Protein; 29g Carbohydrate; 254mg Cholesterol; 14335mg Sodium
Food Exchanges: 0 Grain(Starch); 10 1/2 Lean Meat; 1/2 Vegetable; 0
Fruit; 3 1/2 Fat; 1 1/2 Other Carbohydrates

Darn it, Damsel, this was a FINE question to ask the former Mr. Jack Curry
(me he rest in peace) because he did a fine Corned Beef and a fine Pastrami.
We were always asking his advice in that department. But yes, I would agree
with Ed P. that I wouldn't use splenda due to it's chemical make up.
Remember, the meat sits for about a week or so. Without the proper brine
ingredients, you may end up with a hunk of bad meat. I'd just go with the
sugar and deal with it. Usually, you want to soak the meat in clear water
for a day or two after the brine anyway, which removes a great deal of the
salt and or sugar. Otherwise it will be way too salty.

kili

Damsel in dis Dress said:

I'm wondering if the follow recipe can be modified to reduce the amount of
salt in the brine. If so, what's the minimum salt that I can get away
with?
And can any or all of the sugar be replaced by Splenda? I'm just not sure
what the various ingredients contribute to the process. TIA
Corned Beef (clipped for posterity)

Ditto what the others said. I've used a lot of splenda in preserved pickles &
jams. IMHO, in pickles the amount of salt needs to be reduced to provide the
right "balance" of flavors. Reducing the salt & sugar both might deter
preservation.
Edrena

Damsel in dis Dress said:

I'm wondering if the follow recipe can be modified to reduce the amount of
salt in the brine.

Are you doing this to have corned beef for a sandwich, or are you going
to put it in a recipe like New England Boiled Dinner?
If you are corning it to keep it, I'm not sure, but if you are corning
it to put in something like NEBD, you can get away with ALOT less, as it
isn't a preservative. My mother, not in the perserved meat school (she
thought it unhealthy), used un-corned beef, same cut, for NEBD and I
remember licking the plate AND eating every nibble of the cabbage, the
only way I could stand it as a child.
blacksalt

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if the follow recipe can be modified to reduce the amount of
salt in the brine.

No nitrates or nitrites? What kinda corned beef is MasterCook trying to get us
to accept?

Neil

Edwin Pawlowski said:

"Damsel in dis Dress" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering if the follow recipe can be modified to reduce the amount of
salt in the brine. If so, what's the minimum salt that I can get away
with?

And can any or all of the sugar be replaced by Splenda? I'm just not sure
what the various ingredients contribute to the process. TIA

Some things just have to be. Don't screw up a time tested process with
Splenda and reduce the salt to risk improper curing that can put your health
at risk. These numbers are not guesses, they are centuries old procedures.

Very little of the sugar will end up in the meat. Splenda is an unknown
chemical (in this process) yet and I'd not risk it in curing meats. Same
with the salt. Only the amount needed will be absorbed and retained after a
soak and rinse. Less will not cure properly during those 8 to 12 days.
Improperly cure meat can go bad. It is not there just for flavor, it is to
preserve the meat from spoilage.

Thank you! I don't know what the chemical processes involved in brining
meat are. I'll stick with the original recipe. 🙂

Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

kilikini said:

Darn it, Damsel, this was a FINE question to ask the former Mr. Jack Curry
(me he rest in peace) because he did a fine Corned Beef and a fine Pastrami.
We were always asking his advice in that department.

<Damsel removes her hat and looks at the ground>

Quoted message said:

But yes, I would agree
with Ed P. that I wouldn't use splenda due to it's chemical make up.
Remember, the meat sits for about a week or so. Without the proper brine
ingredients, you may end up with a hunk of bad meat. I'd just go with the
sugar and deal with it. Usually, you want to soak the meat in clear water
for a day or two after the brine anyway, which removes a great deal of the
salt and or sugar. Otherwise it will be way too salty.

Yeah, I'm just not able to handle much salt these days.

Thanks!
Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

The Joneses said:

Ditto what the others said. I've used a lot of splenda in preserved pickles &
jams. IMHO, in pickles the amount of salt needs to be reduced to provide the
right "balance" of flavors. Reducing the salt & sugar both might deter
preservation.

Thanks, Edrena. I'm going to stick with the original recipe. The round
roasts will make beautiful, lean slices for Reubens.

Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

"kalanamak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

If you are corning it to keep it, I'm not sure, but if you are corning
it to put in something like NEBD, you can get away with ALOT less, as it
isn't a preservative. My mother, not in the perserved meat school (she
thought it unhealthy), used un-corned beef, same cut, for NEBD and I
remember licking the plate AND eating every nibble of the cabbage, the
only way I could stand it as a child.
blacksalt

That makes it just a brisket (or round, etc) . Nothing wrong with doing it
that way, just a little different. Corning was used as a method of
preserving before refrigeration. Many good recipes with using non-corned,
but soaking in a water solution sitting it in the fridge for 8 to 12 days
with no salt is a potential problem. The nitrates and nitrites is what gives
it the red color. Otherwise it is gray when cooked.

kalanamak said:

Are you doing this to have corned beef for a sandwich, or are you going
to put it in a recipe like New England Boiled Dinner?
If you are corning it to keep it, I'm not sure, but if you are corning
it to put in something like NEBD, you can get away with ALOT less, as it
isn't a preservative. My mother, not in the perserved meat school (she
thought it unhealthy), used un-corned beef, same cut, for NEBD and I
remember licking the plate AND eating every nibble of the cabbage, the
only way I could stand it as a child.

Nope, I won't be boiling it. I always dry roast my corned beef for a long,
long time at a low temperature. I'm planning on making this for Reuben
sandwiches. We have a meat slicer, and will slice it thinly and store it
in Zip-Lock bags in the freezer.

Thanks,
Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

(WardNA) said:

No nitrates or nitrites? What kinda corned beef is MasterCook trying to get us
to accept?

You're being facetious, right? It's not a MasterCook recipe. It comes
from an excellent book about meat preparation.

Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

Edwin Pawlowski said:

That makes it just a brisket (or round, etc) . Nothing wrong with doing it
that way, just a little different. Corning was used as a method of
preserving before refrigeration. Many good recipes with using non-corned,
but soaking in a water solution sitting it in the fridge for 8 to 12 days
with no salt is a potential problem. The nitrates and nitrites is what gives
it the red color. Otherwise it is gray when cooked.

Well, that should prove interesting. LOL! Gray Reubens. I didn't know
that Reuben was that old.

Thanks,
Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

Damsel in dis Dress said:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 09:17:52 -0800, kalanamak <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you doing this to have corned beef for a sandwich, or are you

going

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to put it in a recipe like New England Boiled Dinner?
If you are corning it to keep it, I'm not sure, but if you are

corning

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it to put in something like NEBD, you can get away with ALOT less,

as it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

isn't a preservative. My mother, not in the perserved meat school

(she

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thought it unhealthy), used un-corned beef, same cut, for NEBD and I
remember licking the plate AND eating every nibble of the cabbage,

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only way I could stand it as a child.

Nope, I won't be boiling it. I always dry roast my corned beef for a

long,

Quoted message said:

long time at a low temperature.

Without first boiling corned beef it will be salty, in fact the longer
it's roasted the more concentrated the salt. Corn beef should always
be simmered prior to any other cooking method and the water discarded
to remove excess salts. Perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with
my method as in the RFC Cook Book.

Sheldon said:

Without first boiling corned beef it will be salty, in fact the longer
it's roasted the more concentrated the salt. Corn beef should always
be simmered prior to any other cooking method and the water discarded
to remove excess salts. Perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with
my method as in the RFC Cook Book.

I'll have to look it up on Google. I still have yet to find my copies of
THE cookbook since the move. That does sound like a good idea. I'm not
crazy about boiled corned beef, but I'm not adverse to leaching some of the
salt out prior to roasting.

Thanks, kiddo!
Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No nitrates or nitrites? What kinda corned beef is MasterCook trying to get

us

Quoted message said:

to accept?

You're being facetious, right?

Not this time. I've corned pork shoulders with NaCl and no other salt
(although with vinegar), but corning beef without at least three salts is
shortchanging a great tradition. Wouldn't think of stiffing New England Boiled
Dinner without the other two. They just add too much that I won't go without.

Neil

(WardNA) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No nitrates or nitrites? What kinda corned beef is MasterCook trying to get

us

Quoted message said:

to accept?

You're being facetious, right?

Not this time. I've corned pork shoulders with NaCl and no other salt
(although with vinegar), but corning beef without at least three salts is
shortchanging a great tradition. Wouldn't think of stiffing New England Boiled
Dinner without the other two. They just add too much that I won't go without.

Thanks, Neil ... now I need some specific insight. Based on the
aforementioned recipe, how much of each should be added? A friend
suggested TenderQuick, but even if I use that, I won't know how much to
add. And I have no idea where to obtain these chemicals.
<insert perplexed look here>

Mine will be for Reuben sandwiches (open-faced per Nancy Young).

Thank you,
Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

In article <[email hidden]>,
Damsel in dis Dress <[email hidden]> wrote:

--snippage--

Quoted message said:

Mine will be for Reuben sandwiches (open-faced per Nancy Young).

Every legitimate Reuben recipe I've ever seen calls for pastrami, not
corned beef. The flavor is not the same.

And BTW, my uncle the professional chef thought it was an abomination to
put any kind of salad dressing on them -- pastrami. swiss cheese,
sauerkraut, on rye, grilled in butter; that's all.

Isaac

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:46:59 -0800, Isaac Wingfield <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Every legitimate Reuben recipe I've ever seen calls for pastrami, not
corned beef. The flavor is not the same.

I've never heard of that!!

Quoted message said:

And BTW, my uncle the professional chef thought it was an abomination to
put any kind of salad dressing on them -- pastrami. swiss cheese,
sauerkraut, on rye, grilled in butter; that's all.

Your uncle is a wise man.

Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 22:50:52 -0600, Damsel in dis Dress quoth:

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:46:59 -0800, Isaac Wingfield <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

And BTW, my uncle the professional chef thought it was an abomination to
put any kind of salad dressing on them -- pastrami. swiss cheese,
sauerkraut, on rye, grilled in butter; that's all.

Your uncle is a wise man.

Wise and tasteful. Even better, get rid of the butter as well.

bkr