Breaking Spokes - Part 2 - Going Custom

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Roger Zoul
My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on the
rear wheel twice, getting them both "fixed" at the LBS, I
then rode another 100 miles only to find another loose spoke
on the rear. So now the LBS is rebuilding the wheel and
they've had my ride all week, only to tell me today that
they don't have any black spokes in stock, so I'll have to
wait some more. Sigh.

This is my bike: tinyurl.com2lo5vOpen ↗

Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a
fellow who lives about 120 miles away from me, but only
about 85 miles from where I work. So I can go see and talk
to him. I think that's an advantage over mail order. He's
recommending I go with a 32-spoke front wheel and a 36-spoke
rear wheel (I weigh 240 lbs). He's suggesting a Velocity
"Fusion" rim. I'm cool with that. He's also giving me
options on the spokes and hubs, depending on how much I want
to spend. Obviously, I want to spend as little as possible
while getting the best wheelset I can for what I want to do
(ride long distances with no hassles from breakings spokes
and untrue wheels).

On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g spoke or a CX-
Ray spoke. The CX-Rays are stonger but lighter but also much
more expensive. I'm going for black in color. I don't see
any good reason for me, a rank noob who weighs 240 lbs and
is not really looking to race, to go with the CX-Rays. Am I
wrong here?

For the hubs, he's giving me the option of Ultegra, Dura
Ace, American Classic, or Chris King. I think the main
differences are lighter weight as you go up in price.
However, with the Race spokes the wheels with Ultegra hubs
only weigh 90g more than the wheels with the Chris King
hubs. The CX-Ray spokes drop another 70g off the weight.

For a non-racer who weighs 240 lbs, isn't this weight
unimportant? My losing another 5 to 10 lbs should make a lot
more difference than 90 to 150g, right?

So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the Ultegra
hubs, and the Race 14/15g spokes in black.

Am I missing anything? Is there any significant advantage
for me in upgrading any components in the build? I assume
these hubs are compatible with the Shimano cassette on my
rear wheel, but I'll check. I'm wondering too if I should
buy another cassette so I can keep my current wheel intact?

I have had very good results with Velocity rims.
I have never used the Fusion, but have used Aerohead and Deep V. I haven't used the more expensive Sapim spokes either, but the standard double butted ones have also worked well.
Ultegra is a good quality hub and is an upgrade from what you had. It doesn't take much to remove the cassette from your other wheel and install it on the new one.
If your local build doesn't work out, I have a New "pair" of 36 spoke Mavic Open Pro rims built with Black DT Competition 14/15 spokes, with DURA ACE 7700 8/9/10 speed rear and Ultegra front hubs.
dave at ornee dot net

the ultegra/dura-ace hubs have the best flange spacing
giving the least bad tension differential between left &
right while maintaining as much lateral stability as
possible. that's important if shimmy is ever an issue with
your wheel/frame combination.

regarding spoke choice, there's no technical advantage to
black spokes - just a considerable increase in cost which i
don't think is worth it. the cx-rays have the best published
fatigue data, but they're also very elastic which for
similar reasons to the spoke flange point above, may not be
a good thing in your case. i wouldn't worry about spoke
breakage on your new wheels. if your builder is competent
and uses good quality spokes like sapim or d.t., you won't
have any further problems.

regarding rim choice, the velocity fusion is not eyeletted
afaik. the bike shop folks on this forum have substantial
service experience and can tell you if they've had any
problems with this rim, but theoretically, a rim that /is/
eyeletted is less prone to fatigue & cracking - potentially
an issue for you.

Roger Zoul said:

My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on the
rear wheel twice, getting them both "fixed" at the LBS, I
then rode another 100 miles only to find another loose
spoke on the rear. So now the LBS is rebuilding the wheel
and they've had my ride all week, only to tell me today
that they don't have any black spokes in stock, so I'll
have to wait some more. Sigh.

This is my bike: tinyurl.com2lo5vOpen ↗

Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a
fellow who lives about 120 miles away from me, but only
about 85 miles from where I work. So I can go see and talk
to him. I think that's an advantage over mail order. He's
recommending I go with a 32-spoke front wheel and a 36-
spoke rear wheel (I weigh 240 lbs). He's suggesting a
Velocity "Fusion" rim. I'm cool with that. He's also
giving me options on the spokes and hubs, depending on how
much I want to spend. Obviously, I want to spend as little
as possible while getting the best wheelset I can for what
I want to do (ride long distances with no hassles from
breakings spokes and untrue wheels).

On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g spoke or a
CX-Ray spoke. The CX-Rays are stonger but lighter but also
much more expensive. I'm going for black in color. I don't
see any good reason for me, a rank noob who weighs 240 lbs
and is not really looking to race, to go with the CX-Rays.
Am I wrong here?

For the hubs, he's giving me the option of Ultegra, Dura
Ace, American Classic, or Chris King. I think the main
differences are lighter weight as you go up in price.
However, with the Race spokes the wheels with Ultegra hubs
only weigh 90g more than the wheels with the Chris King
hubs. The CX-Ray spokes drop another 70g off the weight.

For a non-racer who weighs 240 lbs, isn't this weight
unimportant? My losing another 5 to 10 lbs should make a
lot more difference than 90 to 150g, right?

So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the
Ultegra hubs, and the Race 14/15g spokes in black.

Am I missing anything? Is there any significant
advantage for me in upgrading any components in the
build? I assume these hubs are compatible with the
Shimano cassette on my rear wheel, but I'll check. I'm
wondering too if I should buy another cassette so I can
keep my current wheel intact?

Roger Zoul said:

My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on the
rear wheel twice, getting them both "fixed" at the LBS, I
then rode another 100 miles only to find another loose
spoke on the rear. So now the LBS is rebuilding the wheel
and they've had my ride all week, only to tell me today
that they don't have any black spokes in stock, so I'll
have to wait some more. Sigh.

This is my bike: tinyurl.com2lo5vOpen ↗

Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a
fellow who lives about 120 miles away from me, but only
about 85 miles from where I work.

Why? *IF* your shop does a good job rebuilding your rear
wheel, it should last you many years. (It's pretty obvious
that they never stress-relieved your machine-built original;
unfortunately not unusual IMO.)

Bill "unless you NEED two wheelsets, of course" S.

roger-<< He's recommending I go with a 32-spoke front wheel
and a 36-spoke rear wheel (I weigh 240 lbs). He's suggesting
a Velocity "Fusion" rim. >><BR><BR>

Good choice for you, also Deep V would be a goopd one also,
both made by Velocity.

roger<< On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g spoke
or a CX-Ray spoke. The CX-Rays are stonger but lighter but
also much more expensive. >><BR><BR>

Use the 14/15, not the CX-Ray, for a 240 pound rider.

Roger-<< For the hubs, he's giving me the option of Ultegra,
Dura Ace, American Classic, or Chris King. I think the main
differences are lighter weight as you go up in price.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Use DA or Ultegra. CK or American Classic are poor choices,
considering weight and cost and repairability.

DO NOT let him use thin spokes in the rear. For you, it will
just create a frustrating wheel experience. For 70grams!!
not worth it.

roger-<< So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim,
the Ultegra hubs, and the Race 14/15g spokes in black.

Am I missing anything? >><BR><BR>

GOOD choice, hopefully he knows what he is doing, wheelbuilding-
wise.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

S o r n i wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on the
::: rear wheel twice, getting them both "fixed" at the LBS,
::: I then rode another 100 miles only to find another loose
::: spoke on the rear. So now the LBS is rebuilding the
::: wheel and they've had my ride all week, only to tell me
::: today that they don't have any black spokes in stock, so
::: I'll have to wait some more. Sigh.
:::
::: This is my bike: tinyurl.com2lo5vOpen ↗
:::
::: Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a
::: fellow who lives about 120 miles away from me, but only
::: about 85 miles from where I work.
::
:: Why? *IF* your shop does a good job rebuilding your rear
:: wheel, it should last you many years. (It's pretty
:: obvious that they never stress-relieved your machine-
:: built original; unfortunately not unusual IMO.)

How many chances should I give them to get it right? After
the first time they did it, I got put down 11 miles from
home. After the second time, I've been unable to ride for a
week. Looks as if it's going to be longer too.

I'm not sure I need a second set of wheels right now,
however, but I need a reliable machine. I'm single and
there's few who can come retreive me on some back country
road (assuming a cell phone works out there).

::
:: Bill "unless you NEED two wheelsets, of course" S.

UCE-<< regarding rim choice, the velocity fusion is not
eyeletted afaik.

That is correct

UCE-the bike shop folks on this forum have substantial
service experience and can tell you if they've had any
problems with this rim, but theoretically, a rim that /is/
eyeletted is less prone to fatigue & crackin >><BR><BR>

Velocity rims are very well made and are NOT prone to
cracking. We see MANY OpenPro, 517 series, MA-3, Reflex
tubie with eyelets coming out. Mavic-Our distant second
choice when it comes to rims these days.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Roger Zoul said:

S o r n i wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on
::: the rear wheel twice, getting them both "fixed" at the
::: LBS, I then rode another 100 miles only to find
::: another loose spoke on the rear. So now the LBS is
::: rebuilding the wheel and they've had my ride all week,
::: only to tell me today that they don't have any black
::: spokes in stock, so I'll have to wait some more. Sigh.
:::
::: This is my bike: tinyurl.com2lo5vOpen ↗
:::
::: Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a
::: fellow who lives about 120 miles away from me, but
::: only about 85 miles from where I work.
::
:: Why? *IF* your shop does a good job rebuilding your
:: rear wheel, it should last you many years. (It's pretty
:: obvious that they never stress-relieved your machine-
:: built original; unfortunately not unusual IMO.)

How many chances should I give them to get it right? After
the first time they did it, I got put down 11 miles from
home. After the second time, I've been unable to ride for
a week. Looks as if it's going to be longer too.

if they're only replacing the broken spokes, the old ones
will continue to break! tell them to stop wasting your time
and insist they respoke the wheels completely /and/ use a
quality spoke.

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure I need a second set of wheels right now,
however, but I need a reliable machine. I'm single and
there's few who can come retreive me on some back country
road (assuming a cell phone works out there).

::
:: Bill "unless you NEED two wheelsets, of course" S.

Roger Zoul said:

How many chances should I give them to get it right? After
the first time they did it, I got put down 11 miles from
home. After the second time, I've reliable machine. I'm
single and there's few who can come retreive me on some
back country road (assuming a cell phone works out there).

Roger,

Welcome to the club. The bike shops in my town all suck when
it comes to wheel building. They know zilch about wheel
construction. I didn't want to learn wheel building but I
had too. It was either that or be at their mercy. Now I know
how to build decent wheels. It's fun and you get this warm
fuzzy feeling inside of you knowing you built them yourself
the right way. Get "the Book" on wheel building and set
yourself free.

Kenny Lee

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Roger Zoul
My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on the
rear wheel twice, getting them both "fixed" at the LBS, I
then rode another 100 miles only to find another loose spoke
on the rear. So now the LBS is rebuilding the wheel and
they've had my ride all week, only to tell me today that
they don't have any black spokes in stock, so I'll have to
wait some more. Sigh.

This is my bike: tinyurl.com2lo5vOpen ↗

Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a
fellow who lives about 120 miles away from me, but only
about 85 miles from where I work. So I can go see and talk
to him. I think that's an advantage over mail order. He's
recommending I go with a 32-spoke front wheel and a 36-spoke
rear wheel (I weigh 240 lbs). He's suggesting a Velocity
"Fusion" rim. I'm cool with that. He's also giving me
options on the spokes and hubs, depending on how much I want
to spend. Obviously, I want to spend as little as possible
while getting the best wheelset I can for what I want to do
(ride long distances with no hassles from breakings spokes
and untrue wheels).

On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g spoke or a CX-
Ray spoke. The CX-Rays are stonger but lighter but also much
more expensive. I'm going for black in color. I don't see
any good reason for me, a rank noob who weighs 240 lbs and
is not really looking to race, to go with the CX-Rays. Am I
wrong here?

For the hubs, he's giving me the option of Ultegra, Dura
Ace, American Classic, or Chris King. I think the main
differences are lighter weight as you go up in price.
However, with the Race spokes the wheels with Ultegra hubs
only weigh 90g more than the wheels with the Chris King
hubs. The CX-Ray spokes drop another 70g off the weight.

For a non-racer who weighs 240 lbs, isn't this weight
unimportant? My losing another 5 to 10 lbs should make a lot
more difference than 90 to 150g, right?

So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the Ultegra
hubs, and the Race 14/15g spokes in black.

Am I missing anything? Is there any significant advantage
for me in upgrading any components in the build? I assume
these hubs are compatible with the Shimano cassette on my
rear wheel, but I'll check. I'm wondering too if I should
buy another cassette so I can keep my current wheel intact?

Take a look at the chart of data on the Rinard Spoke calculator to see how the various right side rear flanges are offset from center.
Phil Wood FSA 130 OLD = 22.1 mm
Shimano DURA ACE 7700 = 21.1 mm
Shimano 105 5500 = 20.5 mm
Shimano Ultegra 6500 = 18.0 mm
From the current data set at:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm>
The right offset is important in balancing the load carried from right to left. If price weren't major consideration, I would pick the hubs in order from top to bottom.
Quality of the build is still a major factor. I have built and ridden Ultegra wheels, Chris King wheels, Hugi wheels, and Mavic hubbed wheels that all had significantly less than available right offset... and therefore less spoke support angle and side to side spoke carrying... and still had acceptable durability.
However, price does play in this game,,,... and getting 36 hole Ultegra rear hubs is not easy now a days. I would start with DURA ACE and then go to 105 for the future durability and servicability of the rear wheel. If you can afford it, Phil Wood hubbed rear wheel would still be choice one.

Kenny Lee wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::
::: How many chances should I give them to get it right?
::: After the first time they did it, I got put down 11
::: miles from home. After the second time, I've reliable
::: machine. I'm single and there's few who can come
::: retreive me on some back country road (assuming a cell
::: phone works out there).
:::
::
:: Roger,
::
:: Welcome to the club. The bike shops in my town all suck
:: when it comes to wheel building. They know zilch about
:: wheel construction. I didn't want to learn wheel building
:: but I had too. It was either that or be at their mercy.
:: Now I know how to build decent wheels. It's fun and you
:: get this warm fuzzy feeling inside of you knowing you
:: built them yourself the right way. Get "the Book" on
:: wheel building and set yourself free.
::
:: Kenny Lee

Yep...that's what I'm going to do. I have the book by Jobst
now and am reading it. However, I figure it will take me a
while to get into it and I don't want to stop riding...I
want to do a century this fall or summer.

"daveornee" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...
<SNIP> and getting 36 hole Ultegra rear hubs is not easy
now a days.

I am surprised by the above statement, and I have had no
problems getting them in the past Is this really true, or
are they an easily orderable part?

Roger Zoul said:

So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the
Ultegra hubs, and the Race 14/15g spokes in black.

Sounds like a reasonable set of choices to me. Velocity and
others make other rims that would work too, including offset
spoke holes for the rear rim (see Velocity Aerohead OC) and
eyelets (see Velocity Razor). Velocity also has an advantage
in that they offer powder-coated rather than anodized rims,
and if you dig through the archives of this group, you'll
see that many people in this group don't like anodized rims.

I'm currently riding a pair of yellow powder-coated Velocity
Aeroheads (OC in the rear). It's far too soon to give any
report; the wheels have <100 miles so far. The OC rear rim
sure made building the wheel easier, though.

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering too if I should buy another cassette so I
can keep my current wheel intact?

A second set of wheels is always handy. Here's the scenario:
walk to the garage to get on the bike and go for a ride,
find a flat tire. Switch to the backup wheel, go for a ride.
Fix the tire when you get time. I went through that scenario
this morning, although I just picked a different bike rather
than swap the wheels.

It's also handy to be able to ride the backup wheels if you
have an accident with the primary wheels (i.e. hit a pothole
and damage the rim, which tells you why my rims are so new).
Just think -- if you had a backup set of wheels, you
wouldn't be in your current position!

It's not worth building wheels exclusively for backup duty,
but if you have 90% of the stuff laying around, it's worth a
little effort to get that insurance.

--
Dave dvt at psu dot edu

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
:: roger-<< He's recommending I go with a 32-spoke front
:: wheel and a 36-spoke rear wheel (I weigh 240 lbs). He's
:: suggesting a Velocity "Fusion" rim.
:: >><BR><BR>
::
:: Good choice for you, also Deep V would be a goopd one
:: also, both made by Velocity.
::
:: roger<< On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g
:: spoke or a CX-Ray spoke. The CX-Rays are stonger but
:: lighter but also much more expensive.
:: >><BR><BR>
::
:: Use the 14/15, not the CX-Ray, for a 240 pound rider.
::
:: Roger-<< For the hubs, he's giving me the option of
:: Ultegra, Dura Ace, American Classic, or Chris King. I
:: think the main differences are lighter weight as you go
:: up in price. >><BR><BR>
::
:: Use DA or Ultegra. CK or American Classic are poor
:: choices, considering weight and cost and repairability.
::
:: DO NOT let him use thin spokes in the rear. For you, it
:: will just create a frustrating wheel experience. For
:: 70grams!! not worth it.
::
:: roger-<< So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim,
:: the Ultegra hubs, and the Race 14/15g spokes in black.
::
:: Am I missing anything? >><BR><BR>
::
:: GOOD choice, hopefully he knows what he is doing,
:: wheelbuilding-wise.

Thanks much, Peter. I do hope that he knows his stuff....if
not, then I'll have even more incentive to learn do to
things myself.

dvt wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the
::: Ultegra hubs, and the Race 14/15g spokes in black.
::
:: Sounds like a reasonable set of choices to me. Velocity
:: and others make other rims that would work too, including
:: offset spoke holes for the rear rim (see Velocity
:: Aerohead OC) and eyelets (see Velocity Razor). Velocity
:: also has an advantage in that they offer powder-coated
:: rather than anodized rims, and if you dig through the
:: archives of this group, you'll see that many people in
:: this group don't like anodized rims.
::
:: I'm currently riding a pair of yellow powder-coated
:: Velocity Aeroheads (OC in the rear). It's far too soon to
:: give any report; the wheels have <100 miles so far. The
:: OC rear rim sure made building the wheel easier, though.
::
::: I'm wondering too if I should buy another cassette so I
::: can keep my current wheel intact?
::
:: A second set of wheels is always handy. Here's the
:: scenario: walk to the garage to get on the bike and go
:: for a ride, find a flat tire. Switch to the backup wheel,
:: go for a ride. Fix the tire when you get time. I went
:: through that scenario this morning, although I just
:: picked a different bike rather than swap the wheels.
::
:: It's also handy to be able to ride the backup wheels if
:: you have an accident with the primary wheels (i.e. hit a
:: pothole and damage the rim, which tells you why my rims
:: are so new). Just think -- if you had a backup set of
:: wheels, you wouldn't be in your current position!
::
:: It's not worth building wheels exclusively for backup
:: duty, but if you have 90% of the stuff laying around,
:: it's worth a little effort to get that insurance.

Thanks, Dave....I think you just pushed me over the edge
because this kind of thinking appeals to me. I do think I'll
get a lot of enjoyment out of building my own wheels,
though. I like that kind of challenge 🙂

Roger Zoul said:

He's recommending I go with a 32-spoke front wheel and a
36-spoke rear wheel (I weigh 240 lbs). He's suggesting a
Velocity "Fusion" rim. I'm cool with that.

The Velocity Dyad is worth a look too. Same weight, but
better support for wider tires, and easier tire changes.

Quoted message said:

On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g spoke or a
CX-Ray spoke. The CX-Rays are stonger but lighter but also
much more expensive.

CX-Ray spokes may be "stronger" in tensile strength, but all
spokes are several times stronger than the loads they see in
use anyway. Small cross-section spokes like CX-RAy or DT
Revolutions are stretchier under tension, so they will yield
a less-stiff wheel than spokes with thicker cross-section. I
have used thin spokes with good results on the left side of
dished rear wheels, where the tension is low and the added
elastic range helps.

Quoted message said:

I'm going for black in color.

Black spokes cost quite a bit more and have no other
benefits, but as long as you know that...

Quoted message said:

I don't see any good reason for me, a rank noob who weighs
240 lbs and is not really looking to race, to go with the
CX-Rays. Am I wrong here?

Someone of your weight should be concerned about wheel
lateral stiffness, and that means thicker spokes. 13/14ga.
single-butted Wheelsmith spokes would be a good idea, if
your hubs have big enough holes and the rims can take a lot
of tension (Deep-V). 14/15ga should be OK, though, and way
better than CX-Rays.

Quoted message said:

For the hubs, he's giving me the option of Ultegra, Dura
Ace, American Classic, or Chris King. I think the main
differences are lighter weight as you go up in price.
However, with the Race spokes the wheels with Ultegra hubs
only weigh 90g more than the wheels with the Chris King
hubs. The CX-Ray spokes drop another 70g off the weight.

None of the hubs you named feature the benefit of
industrially standard cartridge bearings. The Shimano hubs
use inferior cup-and-cone bearings that are only partly
replaceable and require periodic adjustment, while the AC
and King hubs use oddball bearing cartridges that can only
be had from the hub manufacturer (and in the case of
American Classic, are none too durable).

White Industries make premium quality, very lightweight hubs
that use durable, cheaply replaceable cartridge bearings
that need no adjustment:

whiteind.comlta road hubset.htmOpen ↗

Phil Wood & Co. also make nice hubs with normal bearing
cartridges, but they are not light and they are, like Chris
King hubs, breathtakingly expensive for no obvious reason.

Quoted message said:

For a non-racer who weighs 240 lbs, isn't this weight
unimportant?

It can become important if you don't use parts heavy enough
to withstand their use.

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering too if I should buy another cassette so I
can keep my current wheel intact?

That's not a bad idea, particularly if you wish to have
different tires set up on your spare wheels.

Chalo Colina

daveornee said:

Take a look at the chart of data on the Rinard Spoke
calculator to see how the various right side rear flanges
are offset from center. Phil Wood FSA 130 OLD = 22.1 mm
Shimano DURA ACE 7700 = 21.1 mm Shimano 105 5500 = 20.5 mm
Shimano Ultegra 6500 = 18.0 mm From the current data set
at: <http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm>

Some of these are probably measured differently. Maybe
center to outside of the flanges (or to the inside of the
flanges), instead of center to center? The current Shimano
road hubs should all be nearly identical.

Does the data in spocalc all come from the same source, or
do several different people contribute data? Best to measure
yourself to be sure I'd think.

Nice that the latest version calculates bracing angle!