Breaking Spokes - Part 2 - Going Custom

Roger Zoul said:

My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on the rear wheel
twice, getting them both "fixed" at the LBS, I then rode another 100
miles only to find another loose spoke on the rear. So now the LBS is
rebuilding the wheel and they've had my ride all week, only to tell me
today that they don't have any black spokes in stock, so I'll have to
wait some more. Sigh.
This is my bike: http://tinyurl.com/2lo5vhttp://tinyurl.com/2lo5v
Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a fellow who lives
about 120 miles away from me, but only about 85 miles from where I work.
So I can go see and talk to him. I think that's an advantage over mail
order. He's recommending I go with a 32-spoke front wheel and a 36-spoke
rear wheel (I weigh 240 lbs). He's suggesting a Velocity "Fusion" rim.
I'm cool with that. He's also giving me options on the spokes and hubs,
depending on how much I want to spend. Obviously, I want to spend as
little as possible while getting the best wheelset I can for what I want
to do (ride long distances with no hassles from breakings spokes and
untrue wheels).
On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g spoke or a CX- Ray spoke.
The CX-Rays are stonger but lighter but also much more expensive. I'm
going for black in color. I don't see any good reason for me, a rank
noob who weighs 240 lbs and is not really looking to race, to go with
the CX-Rays. Am I wrong here?
For the hubs, he's giving me the option of Ultegra, Dura Ace, American
Classic, or Chris King. I think the main differences are lighter weight
as you go up in price. However, with the Race spokes the wheels with
Ultegra hubs only weigh 90g more than the wheels with the Chris King
hubs. The CX-Ray spokes drop another 70g off the weight.
For a non-racer who weighs 240 lbs, isn't this weight unimportant? My
losing another 5 to 10 lbs should make a lot more difference than 90 to
150g, right?
So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the Ultegra hubs, and
the Race 14/15g spokes in black.
Am I missing anything? Is there any significant advantage for me in
upgrading any components in the build? I assume these hubs are
compatible with the Shimano cassette on my rear wheel, but I'll check.
I'm wondering too if I should buy another cassette so I can keep my
current wheel intact?

I have had very good results with Velocity rims. I have never used the
Fusion, but have used Aerohead and Deep V. I haven't used the more
expensive Sapim spokes either, but the standard double butted ones have
also worked well. Ultegra is a good quality hub and is an upgrade from
what you had. It doesn't take much to remove the cassette from your
other wheel and install it on the new one. If your local build doesn't
work out, I have a New "pair" of 36 spoke Mavic Open Pro rims built with
Black DT Competition 14/15 spokes, with DURA ACE 7700 8/9/10 speed rear
and Ultegra front hubs. dave at ornee dot net

--

the ultegra/dura-ace hubs have the best flange spacing giving the least
bad tension differential between left & right while maintaining as much
lateral stability as possible. that's important if shimmy is ever an
issue with your wheel/frame combination.

regarding spoke choice, there's no technical advantage to black spokes -
just a considerable increase in cost which i don't think is worth it.
the cx-rays have the best published fatigue data, but they're also very
elastic which for similar reasons to the spoke flange point above, may
not be a good thing in your case. i wouldn't worry about spoke breakage
on your new wheels. if your builder is competent and uses good quality
spokes like sapim or d.t., you won't have any further problems.

regarding rim choice, the velocity fusion is not eyeletted afaik. the
bike shop folks on this forum have substantial service experience and
can tell you if they've had any problems with this rim, but
theoretically, a rim that /is/ eyeletted is less prone to fatigue &
cracking - potentially an issue for you.

Roger Zoul said:

My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on the rear wheel twice,
getting them both "fixed" at the LBS, I then rode another 100 miles only to
find another loose spoke on the rear. So now the LBS is rebuilding the
wheel and they've had my ride all week, only to tell me today that they
don't have any black spokes in stock, so I'll have to wait some more. Sigh.

This is my bike: http://tinyurl.com/2lo5v

Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a fellow who lives
about 120 miles away from me, but only about 85 miles from where I work. So
I can go see and talk to him. I think that's an advantage over mail order.
He's recommending I go with a 32-spoke front wheel and a 36-spoke rear wheel
(I weigh 240 lbs). He's suggesting a Velocity "Fusion" rim. I'm cool with
that. He's also giving me options on the spokes and hubs, depending on how
much I want to spend. Obviously, I want to spend as little as possible
while getting the best wheelset I can for what I want to do (ride long
distances with no hassles from breakings spokes and untrue wheels).

On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g spoke or a CX-Ray spoke. The
CX-Rays are stonger but lighter but also much more expensive. I'm going for
black in color. I don't see any good reason for me, a rank noob who weighs
240 lbs and is not really looking to race, to go with the CX-Rays. Am I
wrong here?

For the hubs, he's giving me the option of Ultegra, Dura Ace, American
Classic, or Chris King. I think the main differences are lighter weight as
you go up in price. However, with the Race spokes the wheels with Ultegra
hubs only weigh 90g more than the wheels with the Chris King hubs. The
CX-Ray spokes drop another 70g off the weight.

For a non-racer who weighs 240 lbs, isn't this weight unimportant? My
losing another 5 to 10 lbs should make a lot more difference than 90 to
150g, right?

So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the Ultegra hubs, and the
Race 14/15g spokes in black.

Am I missing anything? Is there any significant advantage for me in
upgrading any components in the build? I assume these hubs are compatible
with the Shimano cassette on my rear wheel, but I'll check. I'm wondering
too if I should buy another cassette so I can keep my current wheel intact?

Roger Zoul said:

My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on the rear wheel
twice, getting them both "fixed" at the LBS, I then rode another 100
miles only to find another loose spoke on the rear. So now the LBS
is rebuilding the wheel and they've had my ride all week, only to
tell me today that they don't have any black spokes in stock, so I'll
have to wait some more. Sigh.

This is my bike: http://tinyurl.com/2lo5v

Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a fellow who
lives about 120 miles away from me, but only about 85 miles from
where I work.

Why? *IF* your shop does a good job rebuilding your rear wheel, it should
last you many years. (It's pretty obvious that they never stress-relieved
your machine-built original; unfortunately not unusual IMO.)

Bill "unless you NEED two wheelsets, of course" S.

S o r n i wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on the rear wheel
::: twice, getting them both "fixed" at the LBS, I then rode another 100
::: miles only to find another loose spoke on the rear. So now the LBS
::: is rebuilding the wheel and they've had my ride all week, only to
::: tell me today that they don't have any black spokes in stock, so
::: I'll have to wait some more. Sigh.
:::
::: This is my bike: http://tinyurl.com/2lo5v
:::
::: Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a fellow who
::: lives about 120 miles away from me, but only about 85 miles from
::: where I work.
::
:: Why? *IF* your shop does a good job rebuilding your rear wheel, it
:: should last you many years. (It's pretty obvious that they never
:: stress-relieved your machine-built original; unfortunately not
:: unusual IMO.)

How many chances should I give them to get it right? After the first time
they did it, I got put down 11 miles from home. After the second time, I've
been unable to ride for a week. Looks as if it's going to be longer too.

I'm not sure I need a second set of wheels right now, however, but I need a
reliable machine. I'm single and there's few who can come retreive me on
some back country road (assuming a cell phone works out there).

::
:: Bill "unless you NEED two wheelsets, of course" S.

roger-<< He's recommending I go with a 32-spoke front wheel and a 36-spoke rear
wheel
(I weigh 240 lbs). He's suggesting a Velocity "Fusion" rim. >><BR><BR>

Good choice for you, also Deep V would be a goopd one also, both made by
Velocity.

roger<< On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g spoke or a CX-Ray spoke.
The
CX-Rays are stonger but lighter but also much more expensive. >><BR><BR>

Use the 14/15, not the CX-Ray, for a 240 pound rider.

Roger-<< For the hubs, he's giving me the option of Ultegra, Dura Ace, American
Classic, or Chris King. I think the main differences are lighter weight as
you go up in price. >><BR><BR>

Use DA or Ultegra. CK or American Classic are poor choices, considering weight
and cost and repairability.

DO NOT let him use thin spokes in the rear. For you, it will just create a
frustrating wheel experience. For 70grams!! not worth it.

roger-<< So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the Ultegra hubs, and
the
Race 14/15g spokes in black.

Am I missing anything? >><BR><BR>

GOOD choice, hopefully he knows what he is doing, wheelbuilding-wise.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

UCE-<< regarding rim choice, the velocity fusion is not eyeletted afaik.

That is correct

UCE-the
bike shop folks on this forum have substantial service experience and
can tell you if they've had any problems with this rim, but
theoretically, a rim that /is/ eyeletted is less prone to fatigue &
crackin >><BR><BR>

Velocity rims are very well made and are NOT prone to cracking. We see MANY
OpenPro, 517 series, MA-3, Reflex tubie with eyelets coming out. Mavic-Our
distant second choice when it comes to rims these days.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Roger Zoul said:

S o r n i wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on the rear wheel
::: twice, getting them both "fixed" at the LBS, I then rode another 100
::: miles only to find another loose spoke on the rear. So now the LBS
::: is rebuilding the wheel and they've had my ride all week, only to
::: tell me today that they don't have any black spokes in stock, so
::: I'll have to wait some more. Sigh.
:::
::: This is my bike: http://tinyurl.com/2lo5v
:::
::: Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a fellow who
::: lives about 120 miles away from me, but only about 85 miles from
::: where I work.
::
:: Why? *IF* your shop does a good job rebuilding your rear wheel, it
:: should last you many years. (It's pretty obvious that they never
:: stress-relieved your machine-built original; unfortunately not
:: unusual IMO.)

How many chances should I give them to get it right? After the first time
they did it, I got put down 11 miles from home. After the second time, I've
been unable to ride for a week. Looks as if it's going to be longer too.

if they're only replacing the broken spokes, the old ones will continue
to break! tell them to stop wasting your time and insist they respoke
the wheels completely /and/ use a quality spoke.

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure I need a second set of wheels right now, however, but I need a
reliable machine. I'm single and there's few who can come retreive me on
some back country road (assuming a cell phone works out there).

::
:: Bill "unless you NEED two wheelsets, of course" S.

Roger Zoul said:

How many chances should I give them to get it right? After the first time
they did it, I got put down 11 miles from home. After the second time, I've
reliable machine. I'm single and there's few who can come retreive me on
some back country road (assuming a cell phone works out there).

Roger,

Welcome to the club. The bike shops in my town all suck when it comes to
wheel building. They know zilch about wheel construction. I didn't want
to learn wheel building but I had too. It was either that or be at their
mercy. Now I know how to build decent wheels. It's fun and you get this
warm fuzzy feeling inside of you knowing you built them yourself the
right way. Get "the Book" on wheel building and set yourself free.

Kenny Lee

Kenny Lee wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::
::: How many chances should I give them to get it right? After the
::: first time they did it, I got put down 11 miles from home. After
::: the second time, I've reliable machine. I'm single and there's few
::: who can come retreive me on some back country road (assuming a cell
::: phone works out there).
:::
::
:: Roger,
::
:: Welcome to the club. The bike shops in my town all suck when it
:: comes to wheel building. They know zilch about wheel construction. I
:: didn't want
:: to learn wheel building but I had too. It was either that or be at
:: their mercy. Now I know how to build decent wheels. It's fun and you
:: get this
:: warm fuzzy feeling inside of you knowing you built them yourself the
:: right way. Get "the Book" on wheel building and set yourself free.
::
:: Kenny Lee

Yep...that's what I'm going to do. I have the book by Jobst now and am
reading it. However, I figure it will take me a while to get into it and I
don't want to stop riding...I want to do a century this fall or summer.

Roger Zoul said:

My ride is now in the shop...after popping spokes on the rear wheel
twice, getting them both "fixed" at the LBS, I then rode another 100
miles only to find another loose spoke on the rear. So now the LBS is
rebuilding the wheel and they've had my ride all week, only to tell me
today that they don't have any black spokes in stock, so I'll have to
wait some more. Sigh.
This is my bike: http://tinyurl.com/2lo5vhttp://tinyurl.com/2lo5v
Anywho, I'm going to get some custom wheels built by a fellow who lives
about 120 miles away from me, but only about 85 miles from where I work.
So I can go see and talk to him. I think that's an advantage over mail
order. He's recommending I go with a 32-spoke front wheel and a 36-spoke
rear wheel (I weigh 240 lbs). He's suggesting a Velocity "Fusion" rim.
I'm cool with that. He's also giving me options on the spokes and hubs,
depending on how much I want to spend. Obviously, I want to spend as
little as possible while getting the best wheelset I can for what I want
to do (ride long distances with no hassles from breakings spokes and
untrue wheels).
On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g spoke or a CX- Ray spoke.
The CX-Rays are stonger but lighter but also much more expensive. I'm
going for black in color. I don't see any good reason for me, a rank
noob who weighs 240 lbs and is not really looking to race, to go with
the CX-Rays. Am I wrong here?
For the hubs, he's giving me the option of Ultegra, Dura Ace, American
Classic, or Chris King. I think the main differences are lighter weight
as you go up in price. However, with the Race spokes the wheels with
Ultegra hubs only weigh 90g more than the wheels with the Chris King
hubs. The CX-Ray spokes drop another 70g off the weight.
For a non-racer who weighs 240 lbs, isn't this weight unimportant? My
losing another 5 to 10 lbs should make a lot more difference than 90 to
150g, right?
So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the Ultegra hubs, and
the Race 14/15g spokes in black.
Am I missing anything? Is there any significant advantage for me in
upgrading any components in the build? I assume these hubs are
compatible with the Shimano cassette on my rear wheel, but I'll check.
I'm wondering too if I should buy another cassette so I can keep my
current wheel intact?

Take a look at the chart of data on the Rinard Spoke calculator to see
how the various right side rear flanges are offset from center. Phil
Wood FSA 130 OLD = 22.1 mm Shimano DURA ACE 7700 = 21.1 mm Shimano 105
5500 = 20.5 mm Shimano Ultegra 6500 = 18.0 mm From the current data set
at: <http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm> The right offset is
important in balancing the load carried from right to left. If price
weren't major consideration, I would pick the hubs in order from top to
bottom. Quality of the build is still a major factor. I have built and
ridden Ultegra wheels, Chris King wheels, Hugi wheels, and Mavic hubbed
wheels that all had significantly less than available right offset...
and therefore less spoke support angle and side to side spoke
carrying... and still had acceptable durability. However, price does
play in this game,,,... and getting 36 hole Ultegra rear hubs is not
easy now a days. I would start with DURA ACE and then go to 105 for the
future durability and servicability of the rear wheel. If you can afford
it, Phil Wood hubbed rear wheel would still be choice one.

--

"daveornee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<SNIP>
and getting 36 hole Ultegra rear hubs is not easy now a days.

I am surprised by the above statement, and I have had no problems getting
them in the past Is this really true, or are they an easily orderable part?

Roger Zoul said:

So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the Ultegra hubs, and the
Race 14/15g spokes in black.

Sounds like a reasonable set of choices to me. Velocity and others make
other rims that would work too, including offset spoke holes for the
rear rim (see Velocity Aerohead OC) and eyelets (see Velocity Razor).
Velocity also has an advantage in that they offer powder-coated rather
than anodized rims, and if you dig through the archives of this group,
you'll see that many people in this group don't like anodized rims.

I'm currently riding a pair of yellow powder-coated Velocity Aeroheads
(OC in the rear). It's far too soon to give any report; the wheels have
<100 miles so far. The OC rear rim sure made building the wheel easier,
though.

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering
too if I should buy another cassette so I can keep my current wheel intact?

A second set of wheels is always handy. Here's the scenario: walk to the
garage to get on the bike and go for a ride, find a flat tire. Switch to
the backup wheel, go for a ride. Fix the tire when you get time. I went
through that scenario this morning, although I just picked a different
bike rather than swap the wheels.

It's also handy to be able to ride the backup wheels if you have an
accident with the primary wheels (i.e. hit a pothole and damage the rim,
which tells you why my rims are so new). Just think -- if you had a
backup set of wheels, you wouldn't be in your current position!

It's not worth building wheels exclusively for backup duty, but if you
have 90% of the stuff laying around, it's worth a little effort to get
that insurance.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
:: roger-<< He's recommending I go with a 32-spoke front wheel and a
:: 36-spoke rear wheel
:: (I weigh 240 lbs). He's suggesting a Velocity "Fusion" rim.
:: >><BR><BR>
::
:: Good choice for you, also Deep V would be a goopd one also, both
:: made by Velocity.
::
:: roger<< On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g spoke or a
:: CX-Ray spoke. The
:: CX-Rays are stonger but lighter but also much more expensive.
:: >><BR><BR>
::
:: Use the 14/15, not the CX-Ray, for a 240 pound rider.
::
:: Roger-<< For the hubs, he's giving me the option of Ultegra, Dura
:: Ace, American Classic, or Chris King. I think the main differences
:: are lighter weight as you go up in price. >><BR><BR>
::
:: Use DA or Ultegra. CK or American Classic are poor choices,
:: considering weight and cost and repairability.
::
:: DO NOT let him use thin spokes in the rear. For you, it will just
:: create a frustrating wheel experience. For 70grams!! not worth it.
::
:: roger-<< So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the
:: Ultegra hubs, and the
:: Race 14/15g spokes in black.
::
:: Am I missing anything? >><BR><BR>
::
:: GOOD choice, hopefully he knows what he is doing, wheelbuilding-wise.

Thanks much, Peter. I do hope that he knows his stuff....if not, then I'll
have even more incentive to learn do to things myself.

dvt wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: So I'm thinking I'd do fine with the Fusion Rim, the Ultegra hubs,
::: and the Race 14/15g spokes in black.
::
:: Sounds like a reasonable set of choices to me. Velocity and others
:: make other rims that would work too, including offset spoke holes
:: for the
:: rear rim (see Velocity Aerohead OC) and eyelets (see Velocity Razor).
:: Velocity also has an advantage in that they offer powder-coated
:: rather
:: than anodized rims, and if you dig through the archives of this
:: group, you'll see that many people in this group don't like anodized
:: rims.
::
:: I'm currently riding a pair of yellow powder-coated Velocity
:: Aeroheads (OC in the rear). It's far too soon to give any report;
:: the wheels have <100 miles so far. The OC rear rim sure made
:: building the wheel easier, though.
::
::: I'm wondering
::: too if I should buy another cassette so I can keep my current wheel
::: intact?
::
:: A second set of wheels is always handy. Here's the scenario: walk to
:: the garage to get on the bike and go for a ride, find a flat tire.
:: Switch to
:: the backup wheel, go for a ride. Fix the tire when you get time. I
:: went through that scenario this morning, although I just picked a
:: different
:: bike rather than swap the wheels.
::
:: It's also handy to be able to ride the backup wheels if you have an
:: accident with the primary wheels (i.e. hit a pothole and damage the
:: rim, which tells you why my rims are so new). Just think -- if you
:: had a
:: backup set of wheels, you wouldn't be in your current position!
::
:: It's not worth building wheels exclusively for backup duty, but if
:: you
:: have 90% of the stuff laying around, it's worth a little effort to
:: get
:: that insurance.

Thanks, Dave....I think you just pushed me over the edge because this kind
of thinking appeals to me. I do think I'll get a lot of enjoyment out of
building my own wheels, though. I like that kind of challenge 🙂

Roger Zoul said:

He's recommending I go with a 32-spoke front wheel and a 36-spoke rear wheel
(I weigh 240 lbs). He's suggesting a Velocity "Fusion" rim. I'm cool with
that.

The Velocity Dyad is worth a look too. Same weight, but better
support for wider tires, and easier tire changes.

Quoted message said:

On the spokes, the options are a Race 14/15g spoke or a CX-Ray spoke. The
CX-Rays are stonger but lighter but also much more expensive.

CX-Ray spokes may be "stronger" in tensile strength, but all spokes
are several times stronger than the loads they see in use anyway.
Small cross-section spokes like CX-RAy or DT Revolutions are
stretchier under tension, so they will yield a less-stiff wheel than
spokes with thicker cross-section. I have used thin spokes with good
results on the left side of dished rear wheels, where the tension is
low and the added elastic range helps.

Quoted message said:

I'm going for black in color.

Black spokes cost quite a bit more and have no other benefits, but as
long as you know that...

Quoted message said:

I don't see any good reason for me, a rank noob who weighs
240 lbs and is not really looking to race, to go with the CX-Rays. Am I
wrong here?

Someone of your weight should be concerned about wheel lateral
stiffness, and that means thicker spokes. 13/14ga. single-butted
Wheelsmith spokes would be a good idea, if your hubs have big enough
holes and the rims can take a lot of tension (Deep-V). 14/15ga should
be OK, though, and way better than CX-Rays.

Quoted message said:

For the hubs, he's giving me the option of Ultegra, Dura Ace, American
Classic, or Chris King. I think the main differences are lighter weight as
you go up in price. However, with the Race spokes the wheels with Ultegra
hubs only weigh 90g more than the wheels with the Chris King hubs. The
CX-Ray spokes drop another 70g off the weight.

None of the hubs you named feature the benefit of industrially
standard cartridge bearings. The Shimano hubs use inferior
cup-and-cone bearings that are only partly replaceable and require
periodic adjustment, while the AC and King hubs use oddball bearing
cartridges that can only be had from the hub manufacturer (and in the
case of American Classic, are none too durable).

White Industries make premium quality, very lightweight hubs that use
durable, cheaply replaceable cartridge bearings that need no
adjustment:

http://whiteind.com/lta-road-hubset.htm

Phil Wood & Co. also make nice hubs with normal bearing cartridges,
but they are not light and they are, like Chris King hubs,
breathtakingly expensive for no obvious reason.

Quoted message said:

For a non-racer who weighs 240 lbs, isn't this weight unimportant?

It can become important if you don't use parts heavy enough to
withstand their use.

Quoted message said:

I'm wondering
too if I should buy another cassette so I can keep my current wheel intact?

That's not a bad idea, particularly if you wish to have different
tires set up on your spare wheels.

Chalo Colina

daveornee said:

Take a look at the chart of data on the Rinard Spoke calculator to see
how the various right side rear flanges are offset from center.
Phil Wood FSA 130 OLD = 22.1 mm
Shimano DURA ACE 7700 = 21.1 mm
Shimano 105 5500 = 20.5 mm
Shimano Ultegra 6500 = 18.0 mm
From the current data set
at: <http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm>

Some of these are probably measured differently. Maybe center to
outside of the flanges (or to the inside of the flanges), instead of
center to center? The current Shimano road hubs should all be nearly
identical.

Does the data in spocalc all come from the same source, or do several
different people contribute data? Best to measure yourself to be sure
I'd think.

Nice that the latest version calculates bracing angle!

dave-<< Shimano DURA ACE 7700 = 21.1 mm

Quoted message said:

Shimano 105 5500 = 20.5 mm
Shimano Ultegra 6500 = 18.0 mm >><BR><BR>

Don't think so. I think the c-f is much closer to 18mm for all three. Measure
them.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"