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Break Out The Bicycles

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Road Cycling
Published
8 June 2004
Last activity
10 June 2004
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B. Lafferty
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  1. Break out the bicycles Oil is running out, but the west
    would rather wage wars than consider other energy sources

    George Monbiot Tuesday June 8, 2004

    The Guardian

    Some people have wacky ideas," the new Republican campaign
    ad alleges. "Like taxing gasoline more so people drive less.
    That's John Kerry." Cut to a shot of men in suits riding
    bicycles. Sadly, the accusation is false. Kerry has been
    demanding that the price of oil be held down. He wants
    George Bush to release supplies from the strategic reserve
    and persuade Saudi Arabia to increase production. He has
    been warning the American people that if the president
    doesn't act soon, he and [censored] Cheney will have to share a
    car to work. Men riding bicycles and sharing cars? Is there
    no end to this madness?

    Like the fuel protests that rose and receded in Britain last
    week, these exchanges are both moronic and entirely
    rational. The price of oil has been rising because demand
    for a finite resource is growing faster than supply. Holding
    the price down means that this resource will be depleted
    more quickly, with the result that the dreadful prospect of
    men sharing cars and riding bicycles comes ever closer.
    Perhaps the presidential candidates will start campaigning
    next against the passage of time.

    But a high oil price means recession and unemployment, which
    in turn means political failure for the man in charge. The
    attempt to blame the other man for finity will be one of the
    defining themes of the politics of the next few decades.

    This conflict was exemplified last month by the leader of
    the British fuel protests of 2000, Brynle Williams. "I'm
    afraid to say I'm not very proud of what happened three
    years ago," he admitted in a documentary broadcast on S4C on
    May 4. "We all want turbo-charged motors now ... but we must
    remember that it's some poor sod at the other end of the
    world who ends up paying for
    it." Five days later, on May 9, he told GMTV that he was
    ready to start protesting again. Self-awareness and self-
    interest don't seem to mix very well.

    To understand what is going to happen, we must first grasp
    the core fact of existence. Life is a struggle against
    entropy. Entropy can be roughly defined as the dispersal of
    energy. As soon as a system - whether an organism or an
    economy - runs out of energy, it starts to disintegrate. Its
    survival depends on seizing new sources of fuel.

    Biological evolution is driven by the need to grab the
    energy for which other organisms are competing. One result
    is increasing complexity: a tree can take more energy from
    the sun than the mosses on the forest floor; a tuna can seek
    out its prey more actively than a jellyfish. But the cost of
    this complexity is an enhanced requirement for energy. The
    same goes for our economies.

    They evolved in the presence of a source of energy that was
    both cheap to extract and cheap to use. There is, as yet, no
    substitute for it. Everything else is either more expensive
    or harder to use. Without cheap oil the economy would
    succumb to entropy.

    But the age of cheap oil is over. If you doubt this, take a
    look at the BBC's online report yesterday of a conference
    run by the Association for the Study of Peak Oil. The
    reporter spoke to the chief economist of the International
    Energy Agency, Fatih Birol. "In public, Mr Birol denied that
    supply would not be able to meet rising demand ... But after
    his speech he seemed to change his tune: 'For the time being
    there is no spare capacity. But we expect demand to increase
    by the fourth quarter by 3m barrels a day. If Saudi does not
    increase supply by 3m barrels a day by the end of the year
    we will face, how can I say this, it will be very difficult.
    We will have difficult times.'" The reporter asked him
    whether such a growth in supply was possible, or simply
    wishful thinking. "'You are from the press?' Birol replied.
    'This is not for the press.'" So the BBC asked the other
    delegates what they thought of the prospects of a 30%
    increase in Saudi production. "The answers were unambiguous:
    'absolutely out of the question'; 'completely impossible';
    and '3m barrels - never, not even 300,000'. One delegate
    laughed so hard he had to support himself on a table." And
    this was before they heard that two BBC journalists had been
    gunned down in Riyadh.

    The world's problem is as follows. We now consume six
    barrels of oil for every new barrel we discover. Major oil
    finds (of over 500m barrels) peaked in 1964. In 2000, there
    were 13 such discoveries, in 2001 six, in 2002 two and in
    2003 none. Three major new projects will come onstream in
    2007 and three in 2008. For the following years, none have
    yet been scheduled.

    The oil industry tells us not to worry: the market will find
    a way of sorting this out. If the price of energy rises, new
    sources will come onstream. But new sources of what? Every
    other option is much more expensive than the cheap oil that
    made our economic complexity possible.

    The new technology designed to extract the dregs from old
    fields is expensive and doesn't seem to work very well,
    which is why Shell was forced to downgrade its anticipated
    reserves (other companies, under pressure from the US
    Securities and Exchange Commission, will surely follow).
    Extracting oil from tar sands and shales uses almost as much
    energy as it yields. The same goes for turning crops such as
    rape into biodiesel. Nuclear power is viable only if you
    overlook both the massive costs of decommissioning and the
    fact that no safe means has yet been discovered of disposing
    of the waste. We could cover the country with windmills and
    solar panels, but the electricity they produced would still
    be an expensive means of running our cars.

    Just as the oil supply begins to look uncertain, global
    demand is rising faster than it has done for 16 years.
    Yesterday morning, General Motors announced that it is
    spending $3bn on doubling its production of cars for the
    Chinese market. Seventy-four minutes later, we saw the first
    signs of entropy: the International Air Travel Association
    revealed that the airlines are likely to lose $3bn this year
    because of high oil prices. The cheap carriers complained
    that they could be forced out of the market.

    If the complexity of our economies is impossible to sustain,
    our best hope is to start to dismantle them before they
    collapse. This isn't very likely to happen. Faced with a
    choice between a bang and a whimper, our governments are
    likely to choose the bang, waging ever more extravagant wars
    to keep the show on the road. Terrorists, alert to both the
    west's rising need and the vulnerability of the pipeline and
    tanker networks, will respond with their own oil wars.

    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle," HG Wells wrote, "I
    no longer despair for the human race." It's a start, but I'd
    feel even more confident about our chances of survival if I
    saw George Bush and [censored] Cheney sharing a car to work.

    · George Monbiot's book The Age of Consent: a Manifesto for
    a New World Order is now published in paperback

    www.monbiot.com

    Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004

  2. B. Lafferty said:

    Break out the bicycles Oil is running out, but the west
    would rather wage wars than consider other energy sources

    George Monbiot Tuesday June 8, 2004

    The Guardian

    Some people have wacky ideas," the new Republican campaign
    ad alleges. "Like taxing gasoline more so people drive
    less. That's John Kerry." Cut to a shot of men in suits
    riding bicycles. Sadly, the accusation is false. Kerry has
    been demanding that the price of oil be held down. He
    wants George Bush to release supplies from the strategic
    reserve and persuade Saudi Arabia to increase production.
    He has been warning the American people that if the
    president doesn't act soon, he and [censored] Cheney will have
    to share a car to work. Men riding bicycles and sharing
    cars? Is there no end to this madness?

    Like the fuel protests that rose and receded in Britain
    last week, these exchanges are both moronic and entirely
    rational. The price of oil has been rising because demand
    for a finite resource is growing faster than supply.
    Holding the price down means that this resource will be
    depleted more quickly, with the result that the dreadful
    prospect of men sharing cars and riding bicycles comes
    ever closer. Perhaps the presidential candidates will
    start campaigning next against the passage of time.

    But a high oil price means recession and unemployment,
    which in turn means political failure for the man in
    charge. The attempt to blame the other man for finity will
    be one of the defining themes of the politics of the next
    few decades.

    This conflict was exemplified last month by the leader of
    the British fuel protests of 2000, Brynle Williams. "I'm
    afraid to say I'm not very proud of what happened three
    years ago," he admitted in a documentary broadcast on S4C
    on May 4. "We all want turbo-charged motors now ... but we
    must remember that it's some poor sod at the other end of
    the world who ends up paying for
    it." Five days later, on May 9, he told GMTV that he was
    ready to start protesting again. Self-awareness and self-
    interest don't seem to mix very well.

    To understand what is going to happen, we must first grasp
    the core fact of existence. Life is a struggle against
    entropy. Entropy can be roughly defined as the dispersal
    of energy. As soon as a system - whether an organism or an
    economy - runs out of energy, it starts to disintegrate.
    Its survival depends on seizing new sources of fuel.

    Biological evolution is driven by the need to grab the
    energy for which other organisms are competing. One result
    is increasing complexity: a tree can take more energy from
    the sun than the mosses on the forest floor; a tuna can
    seek out its prey more actively than a jellyfish. But the
    cost of this complexity is an enhanced requirement for
    energy. The same goes for our economies.

    They evolved in the presence of a source of energy that
    was both cheap to extract and cheap to use. There is, as
    yet, no substitute for it. Everything else is either more
    expensive or harder to use. Without cheap oil the economy
    would succumb to entropy.

    But the age of cheap oil is over. If you doubt this, take
    a look at the BBC's online report yesterday of a
    conference run by the Association for the Study of Peak
    Oil. The reporter spoke to the chief economist of the
    International Energy Agency, Fatih Birol. "In public, Mr
    Birol denied that supply would not be able to meet rising
    demand ... But after his speech he seemed to change his
    tune: 'For the time being there is no spare capacity. But
    we expect demand to increase by the fourth quarter by 3m
    barrels a day. If Saudi does not increase supply by 3m
    barrels a day by the end of the year we will face, how can
    I say this, it will be very difficult. We will have
    difficult times.'" The reporter asked him whether such a
    growth in supply was possible, or simply wishful thinking.
    "'You are from the press?' Birol replied. 'This is not for
    the press.'" So the BBC asked the other delegates what
    they thought of the prospects of a 30% increase in Saudi
    production. "The answers were unambiguous: 'absolutely out
    of the question'; 'completely impossible'; and '3m barrels
    - never, not even 300,000'. One delegate laughed so hard
    he had to support himself on a table." And this was before
    they heard that two BBC journalists had been gunned down
    in Riyadh.

    The world's problem is as follows. We now consume six
    barrels of oil for every new barrel we discover. Major oil
    finds (of over 500m barrels) peaked in 1964. In 2000,
    there were 13 such discoveries, in 2001 six, in 2002 two
    and in 2003 none. Three major new projects will come
    onstream in 2007 and three in 2008. For the following
    years, none have yet been scheduled.

    The oil industry tells us not to worry: the market will
    find a way of sorting this out. If the price of energy
    rises, new sources will come onstream. But new sources of
    what? Every other option is much more expensive than the
    cheap oil that made our economic complexity possible.

    The new technology designed to extract the dregs from old
    fields is expensive and doesn't seem to work very well,
    which is why Shell was forced to downgrade its
    anticipated reserves (other companies, under pressure
    from the US Securities and Exchange Commission, will
    surely follow). Extracting oil from tar sands and shales
    uses almost as much energy as it yields. The same goes
    for turning crops such as rape into biodiesel. Nuclear
    power is viable only if you overlook both the massive
    costs of decommissioning and the fact that no safe means
    has yet been discovered of disposing of the waste. We
    could cover the country with windmills and solar panels,
    but the electricity they produced would still be an
    expensive means of running our cars.

    Just as the oil supply begins to look uncertain, global
    demand is rising faster than it has done for 16 years.
    Yesterday morning, General Motors announced that it is
    spending $3bn on doubling its production of cars for the
    Chinese market. Seventy-four minutes later, we saw the
    first signs of entropy: the International Air Travel
    Association revealed that the airlines are likely to
    lose $3bn this year because of high oil prices. The
    cheap carriers complained that they could be forced out
    of the market.

    If the complexity of our economies is impossible to
    sustain, our best hope is to start to dismantle them
    before they collapse. This isn't very likely to happen.
    Faced with a choice between a bang and a whimper, our
    governments are likely to choose the bang, waging ever
    more extravagant wars to keep the show on the road.
    Terrorists, alert to both the west's rising need and the
    vulnerability of the pipeline and tanker networks, will
    respond with their own oil wars.

    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle," HG Wells wrote,
    "I no longer despair for the human race." It's a start,
    but I'd feel even more confident about our chances of
    survival if I saw George Bush and [censored] Cheney sharing a
    car to work.

    · George Monbiot's book The Age of Consent: a Manifesto
    for a New World Order is now published in paperback

    www.monbiot.com

    Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004

    The only times I've seen increases in bicycle
    ridership since I've gotten into riding were the
    second oil crisis about 1979 and the NYC transit
    strike in 1980.

    Steve

  3. "B. Lafferty" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Break out the bicycles Oil is running out, but the west
    would rather wage wars than consider


    other

    Quoted message said:

    energy sources

    It's fun to be pro-bikes in a bike racing forum, but going
    from that article about basic supply and demand to "oil is
    running out" is a leap only superseded by trying to apply
    Goedel's Theorem to ultimate reality. To paraphrase
    mathematician Pedro Fortuny of Universidad de Valladolid,
    "One should use tools in their place. No one tries to obtain
    philosophical consequences from the fact that kids bikes
    made with steel are cheaper than racing bikes made with
    titanium. So, why one should do the same with Goedel's
    results on families of symbols? It could be used to have a
    deeper understanding of Mathematics, and maybe Science in
    general, but it is not applicable to general formal systems,
    nor to language or metaphysics." Nice idea about bikes go.

    Jim "Canada is self-sufficient in petrol but it's twice the
    price as in the States" Flom

  4. B. Lafferty said:

    The price of oil has been rising because demand for a
    finite resource is growing faster than supply. Holding the
    price down means that this resource will be depleted more
    quickly, with the result that the dreadful prospect of men
    sharing cars and riding bicycles comes ever closer.

    Hey, you can't talk sense here! This is r.b.r.!

    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps the presidential candidates will start campaigning
    next against the passage of time.

    If it would deliver Florida, they wouldn't even flinch.

    (all the rest some combination of sad and/or true)

    Mark Janeba (back to lurking)

  5. "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:Jvwxc.10934$NT6.5553@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Break out the bicycles Oil is running out, but the west
    would rather wage wars than consider


    other

    Quoted message said:

    energy sources

    It's fun to be pro-bikes in a bike racing forum, but going
    from that


    article

    Quoted message said:

    about basic supply and demand to "oil is running out" is a
    leap only superseded by trying to apply Goedel's Theorem
    to ultimate reality. To paraphrase mathematician Pedro
    Fortuny of Universidad de Valladolid, "One should use
    tools in their place. No one tries to obtain philosophical
    consequences from the fact that kids bikes made with steel
    are cheaper


    than

    Quoted message said:

    racing bikes made with titanium. So, why one should do the
    same with Goedel's results on families of symbols? It
    could be used to have a deeper understanding of
    Mathematics, and maybe Science in general, but it is not
    applicable to general formal systems, nor to language or
    metaphysics."


    Nice

    Quoted message said:

    idea about bikes go.

    Ya think there may be a reason Pedro is at the Univ. of
    Valladlolid and not Princeton? Perhaps you're just not
    paraphrasing well. You need to have another talk with that
    mathematician at your old congregation, Rev.

  6. Jim Flom said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Break out the bicycles Oil is running out, but the west
    would rather wage wars than consider

    other

    Quoted message said:

    energy sources

    It's fun to be pro-bikes in a bike racing forum, but going
    from that article about basic supply and demand to "oil is
    running out"

    While oil will probably not run out for another 50 years or
    so the issue is that major oil fields are passed their peak
    and there is only a finite amount that can be pumped in any
    one year. Hence prices will rise as developing economies
    compete for the resource. European economies are better
    insulated from this than the US as fuel is much more heavily
    taxed... but those self same European economies rely on the
    US economy to stimulate demand.

  7. "B. Lafferty" wrote...

    Quoted message said:


    You need to have another talk with that mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

  8. "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:veExc.18945$NT6.9206@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote...

    Quoted message said:


    You need to have another talk with that
    mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

    She. And she told you that what I said about Gödel and
    religion as a formal system, was correct. I can dig out your
    email and post it if you like.

    I know that Gödel's Theorem presents major problems for some
    people of faith in that any claim to certainty about the
    divinity of any specific God (e.g., Jesus as God and Man)
    can not be presented as absolute truth. The theorem doesn't
    prove that your truth is untrue; it simply proves that other
    truths must, of logical necessity, exist outside your formal
    system (in this case faith/religious system). Any one of
    those other truths could be at odds with and/or negate the
    truth you espouse.

    That why Unitarian Universalism, as a non-creedal
    faith, is so appealing to many, including me. Travel
    your path in peace.

  9. On 6/9/04 7:34 AM, in article
    [email hidden], "B. Lafferty"

    Quoted message said:


    "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:veExc.18945$NT6.9206@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote...

    Quoted message said:


    You need to have another talk with that
    mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

    She. And she told you that what I said about Gödel and
    religion as a formal system, was correct. I can dig out
    your email and post it if you like.

    I know that Gödel's Theorem presents major problems for
    some people of faith in that any claim to certainty about
    the divinity of any specific God (e.g., Jesus as God and
    Man) can not be presented as absolute truth. The theorem
    doesn't prove that your truth is untrue; it simply proves
    that other truths must, of logical necessity, exist
    outside your formal system (in this case faith/religious
    system). Any one of those other truths could be at odds
    with and/or negate the truth you espouse.

    That why Unitarian Universalism, as a non-creedal faith,
    is so appealing to many, including me. Travel your path
    in peace.

    unarius.orgUriel.rm

  10. "Steve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 6/9/04 7:34 AM, in article
    [email hidden], "B.

    Lafferty said:


    "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:veExc.18945$NT6.9206@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote...
    >
    > You need to have another talk with that
    > mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

    She. And she told you that what I said about Gödel and
    religion as a


    formal

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    system, was correct. I can dig out your email and post
    it if you like.

    I know that Gödel's Theorem presents major problems for
    some people of


    faith

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in that any claim to certainty about the divinity of any
    specific God


    (e.g.,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Jesus as God and Man) can not be presented as absolute
    truth. The


    theorem

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    doesn't prove that your truth is untrue; it simply
    proves that other


    truths

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    must, of logical necessity, exist outside your formal
    system (in this


    case

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    faith/religious system). Any one of those other truths
    could be at odds with and/or negate the truth you
    espouse.

    That why Unitarian Universalism, as a non-creedal faith,
    is so appealing


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    many, including me. Travel your path in peace.

    unarius.orgUriel.rm

    Lovely, but not what I was thinking of. How about

    zapatopi.netafdb.html

  11. "Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote
    in message

    Quoted message said:

    The only times I've seen increases in bicycle ridership
    since I've gotten into riding were the second oil crisis
    about 1979 and the NYC transit strike in 1980.

    Steve

    And what happened these riders after these events?

  12. "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:Jvwxc.10934$NT6.5553@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Break out the bicycles Oil is running out, but the west
    would rather wage wars than consider


    other

    Quoted message said:

    energy sources

    It's fun to be pro-bikes in a bike racing forum, but going
    from that


    article

    Quoted message said:

    about basic supply and demand to "oil is running out" is a
    leap only superseded by trying to apply Goedel's Theorem
    to ultimate reality. To paraphrase mathematician Pedro
    Fortuny of Universidad de Valladolid, "One should use
    tools in their place. No one tries to obtain philosophical
    consequences from the fact that kids bikes made with steel
    are cheaper


    than

    Quoted message said:

    racing bikes made with titanium. So, why one should do the
    same with Goedel's results on families of symbols? It
    could be used to have a deeper understanding of
    Mathematics, and maybe Science in general, but it is not
    applicable to general formal systems, nor to language or
    metaphysics."


    Nice

    Quoted message said:

    idea about bikes go.

    Jim "Canada is self-sufficient in petrol but it's twice
    the price as in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    States" Flom

    I would like to see the US tax gasoline at similar rates as
    the continental European countries do. If the extra income
    were required to go in to public transit projects and
    subsidies (lowed ticket prices) you would see much fewer
    cars on the road. It has to happen soon but no politician
    wants to explain this to their constituents. So why are
    these suicide candidates not talking about such a plan? That
    is their entire role (to raise issues that serious
    candidates can't afford to). Come on Nader!

    Just imagine how many SUVs and large cars with single
    passengers you would (not) see 5 years or less after such a
    plan were executed...

  13. "Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote
    in message

    Quoted message said:

    The only times I've seen increases in bicycle ridership
    since I've gotten into riding were the second oil crisis
    about 1979 and the NYC transit strike in 1980.

    Steve

    And what happened these riders after these events?


    Some of us are still alive and riding. I still remember
    cycling down from 86th and Fifth on the first day of the
    transit strike. It was awsome to see all of those
    cyclist going to work. But, it didn't really transform
    the city commuting habits of may as they preferred mass
    transit and still do. Mass T is still better than single
    occupant drivers.

  14. "Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:Jvwxc.10934$NT6.5553@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Break out the bicycles Oil is running out, but the
    west would rather wage wars than consider


    other

    Quoted message said:

    energy sources

    It's fun to be pro-bikes in a bike racing forum, but
    going from that


    article

    Quoted message said:

    about basic supply and demand to "oil is running out" is
    a leap only superseded by trying to apply Goedel's
    Theorem to ultimate reality. To paraphrase mathematician
    Pedro Fortuny of Universidad de Valladolid,


    "One

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    should use tools in their place. No one tries to obtain
    philosophical consequences from the fact that kids bikes
    made with steel are cheaper


    than

    Quoted message said:

    racing bikes made with titanium. So, why one should do
    the same with Goedel's results on families of symbols?
    It could be used to have a


    deeper

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    understanding of Mathematics, and maybe Science in
    general, but it is


    not

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    applicable to general formal systems, nor to language or
    metaphysics."


    Nice

    Quoted message said:

    idea about bikes go.

    Jim "Canada is self-sufficient in petrol but it's twice
    the price as in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    States" Flom

    I would like to see the US tax gasoline at similar
    rates as the


    continental

    Quoted message said:

    European countries do. If the extra income were required
    to go in to


    public

    Quoted message said:

    transit projects and subsidies (lowed ticket prices) you
    would see much fewer cars on the road. It has to happen
    soon but no politician wants to explain this to their
    constituents. So why are these suicide candidates


    not

    Quoted message said:

    talking about such a plan? That is their entire role (to
    raise issues that serious candidates can't afford to).
    Come on Nader!

    Just imagine how many SUVs and large cars with single
    passengers you would (not) see 5 years or less after such
    a plan were executed...

    From your lips to God's ears. Pick a God and we'll try
    sending a message. ;-)

  15. "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:veExc.18945$NT6.9206@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote...

    Quoted message said:


    You need to have another talk with that
    mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

    She. And she told you that what I said about Gödel and
    religion as a


    formal

    Quoted message said:

    system, was correct. I can dig out your email and post it
    if you like.

    I know that Gödel's Theorem presents major problems for
    some people of


    faith

    Quoted message said:

    in that any claim to certainty about the divinity of any
    specific God


    (e.g.,

    Quoted message said:

    Jesus as God and Man) can not be presented as absolute
    truth. The theorem doesn't prove that your truth is
    untrue; it simply proves that other


    truths

    Quoted message said:

    must, of logical necessity, exist outside your formal
    system (in this case faith/religious system). Any one of
    those other truths could be at odds with and/or negate the
    truth you espouse.

    That why Unitarian Universalism, as a non-creedal faith,
    is so appealing


    to

    Quoted message said:

    many, including me.

    Don't you know that Satan is predicted to oraganize
    something along those lines? A few years after it gains
    popular support, the other religions will be attacked and
    repressed before ultimately outlawing them as "against
    peace" and so on. This all happens at around the time of one
    world currency and so on. I am not saying it will happen any
    time soon, but it is a bit strange just how many prophecies
    from the Book of Revelation seem to be falling in to place
    or at least not appearing as outlandish as they did a few
    decades ago.

    Quoted message said:

    Travel your path in peace.

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions (of a one
    world religion and a unified glabal currency).

  16. "Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Td-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:veExc.18945$NT6.9206@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote...
    >
    > You need to have another talk with that
    > mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

    She. And she told you that what I said about Gödel and
    religion as a


    formal

    Quoted message said:

    system, was correct. I can dig out your email and post
    it if you like.

    I know that Gödel's Theorem presents major problems for
    some people of


    faith

    Quoted message said:

    in that any claim to certainty about the divinity of any
    specific God


    (e.g.,

    Quoted message said:

    Jesus as God and Man) can not be presented as absolute
    truth. The


    theorem

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    doesn't prove that your truth is untrue; it simply
    proves that other


    truths

    Quoted message said:

    must, of logical necessity, exist outside your formal
    system (in this


    case

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    faith/religious system). Any one of those other truths
    could be at odds with and/or negate the truth you
    espouse.

    That why Unitarian Universalism, as a non-creedal faith,
    is so appealing


    to

    Quoted message said:

    many, including me.

    Don't you know that Satan is predicted to oraganize
    something along those lines? A few years after it gains
    popular support, the other religions


    will

    Quoted message said:

    be attacked and repressed before ultimately outlawing them
    as "against peace" and so on. This all happens at around
    the time of one world


    currency

    Quoted message said:

    and so on. I am not saying it will happen any time soon,
    but it is a bit strange just how many prophecies from the
    Book of Revelation seem to be falling in to place or at
    least not appearing as outlandish as they did a few
    decades ago.

    Quoted message said:

    Travel your path in peace.

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions (of a one
    world religion


    and

    Quoted message said:

    a unified glabal currency).

    And the definition of Irish diplomacy is to be able to
    tell a man to go to Hell in such a way that he will enjoy
    the journey.

  17. "Steve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    unarius.orgUriel.rm

    I sure hope you are joking. She seems to be, but then again
    she could be conpletely insane.

  18. "Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Steve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    unarius.orgUriel.rm

    I sure hope you are joking. She seems to be, but then
    again she could be conpletely insane.

    I don't think she's joking.

  19. Chris said:

    I am not saying it will happen any time soon, but it is a
    bit strange just how many prophecies from the Book of
    Revelation seem to be falling in to place or at least not
    appearing as outlandish as they did a few decades ago.

    To some. Still seem pretty outlandish to me. FWIW, every few
    centuries large numbers of people start believing they see
    the prophecies of Revelations around them. Most of them did
    see the end of the world as they knew it, but it was pretty
    much one at a time...

    My version of God wouldn't find Revelations all that
    interesting, just a bit amusing. Fleas writing about the
    dog, wondering when the next bath time comes. What the heck
    it has to do with bicycle racing I haven't a clue, unless it
    was being dropped in 100 degree weather in Texas and
    desperately hoping for universal salvation in the form of a
    broomwagon.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

  20. Chris said:

    I would like to see the US tax gasoline at similar rates as
    the continental European countries do. If the extra income
    were required to go in to public transit projects and
    subsidies (lowed ticket prices) you would see much fewer
    cars on the road.

    About a decade after the end of the Federalist system in
    the U.S. No fed tax will be targeted strictly at transit
    projects and subsidies because most states do not have a
    high need for such projects. There are more states like
    Kansas, Arizona and Wyoming than California, New York
    and the Washington DC area. Population and population
    centers are irrelevant - what counts is how the real
    votes are counted.

    State by state doing it would be cool, because it would make
    for some fascinating boundary condition economics as
    millions of people make a once or twice a week decision on
    how far they would drive for a 30 or 40 cent or dollar
    difference per gallon.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...

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