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Break Out The Bicycles

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Road Cycling
Published
8 June 2004
Last activity
10 June 2004
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B. Lafferty
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  1. Break out the bicycles
    Oil is running out, but the west would rather wage wars than consider other
    energy sources

    George Monbiot
    Tuesday June 8, 2004

    The Guardian

    Some people have wacky ideas," the new Republican campaign ad alleges. "Like
    taxing gasoline more so people drive less. That's John Kerry." Cut to a shot
    of men in suits riding bicycles.
    Sadly, the accusation is false. Kerry has been demanding that the price of
    oil be held down. He wants George Bush to release supplies from the
    strategic reserve and persuade Saudi Arabia to increase production. He has
    been warning the American people that if the president doesn't act soon, he
    and [censored] Cheney will have to share a car to work. Men riding bicycles and
    sharing cars? Is there no end to this madness?

    Like the fuel protests that rose and receded in Britain last week, these
    exchanges are both moronic and entirely rational. The price of oil has been
    rising because demand for a finite resource is growing faster than supply.
    Holding the price down means that this resource will be depleted more
    quickly, with the result that the dreadful prospect of men sharing cars and
    riding bicycles comes ever closer. Perhaps the presidential candidates will
    start campaigning next against the passage of time.

    But a high oil price means recession and unemployment, which in turn means
    political failure for the man in charge. The attempt to blame the other man
    for finity will be one of the defining themes of the politics of the next
    few decades.

    This conflict was exemplified last month by the leader of the British fuel
    protests of 2000, Brynle Williams. "I'm afraid to say I'm not very proud of
    what happened three years ago," he admitted in a documentary broadcast on
    S4C on May 4. "We all want turbo-charged motors now ... but we must remember
    that it's some poor sod at the other end of the world who ends up paying for
    it." Five days later, on May 9, he told GMTV that he was ready to start
    protesting again. Self-awareness and self-interest don't seem to mix very
    well.

    To understand what is going to happen, we must first grasp the core fact of
    existence. Life is a struggle against entropy. Entropy can be roughly
    defined as the dispersal of energy. As soon as a system - whether an
    organism or an economy - runs out of energy, it starts to disintegrate. Its
    survival depends on seizing new sources of fuel.

    Biological evolution is driven by the need to grab the energy for which
    other organisms are competing. One result is increasing complexity: a tree
    can take more energy from the sun than the mosses on the forest floor; a
    tuna can seek out its prey more actively than a jellyfish. But the cost of
    this complexity is an enhanced requirement for energy. The same goes for our
    economies.

    They evolved in the presence of a source of energy that was both cheap to
    extract and cheap to use. There is, as yet, no substitute for it. Everything
    else is either more expensive or harder to use. Without cheap oil the
    economy would succumb to entropy.

    But the age of cheap oil is over. If you doubt this, take a look at the
    BBC's online report yesterday of a conference run by the Association for the
    Study of Peak Oil. The reporter spoke to the chief economist of the
    International Energy Agency, Fatih Birol. "In public, Mr Birol denied that
    supply would not be able to meet rising demand ... But after his speech he
    seemed to change his tune: 'For the time being there is no spare capacity.
    But we expect demand to increase by the fourth quarter by 3m barrels a day.
    If Saudi does not increase supply by 3m barrels a day by the end of the year
    we will face, how can I say this, it will be very difficult. We will have
    difficult times.'" The reporter asked him whether such a growth in supply
    was possible, or simply wishful thinking. "'You are from the press?' Birol
    replied. 'This is not for the press.'" So the BBC asked the other delegates
    what they thought of the prospects of a 30% increase in Saudi production.
    "The answers were unambiguous: 'absolutely out of the question'; 'completely
    impossible'; and '3m barrels - never, not even 300,000'. One delegate
    laughed so hard he had to support himself on a table." And this was before
    they heard that two BBC journalists had been gunned down in Riyadh.

    The world's problem is as follows. We now consume six barrels of oil for
    every new barrel we discover. Major oil finds (of over 500m barrels) peaked
    in 1964. In 2000, there were 13 such discoveries, in 2001 six, in 2002 two
    and in 2003 none. Three major new projects will come onstream in 2007 and
    three in 2008. For the following years, none have yet been scheduled.

    The oil industry tells us not to worry: the market will find a way of
    sorting this out. If the price of energy rises, new sources will come
    onstream. But new sources of what? Every other option is much more expensive
    than the cheap oil that made our economic complexity possible.

    The new technology designed to extract the dregs from old fields is
    expensive and doesn't seem to work very well, which is why Shell was forced
    to downgrade its anticipated reserves (other companies, under pressure from
    the US Securities and Exchange Commission, will surely follow). Extracting
    oil from tar sands and shales uses almost as much energy as it yields. The
    same goes for turning crops such as rape into biodiesel. Nuclear power is
    viable only if you overlook both the massive costs of decommissioning and
    the fact that no safe means has yet been discovered of disposing of the
    waste. We could cover the country with windmills and solar panels, but the
    electricity they produced would still be an expensive means of running our
    cars.

    Just as the oil supply begins to look uncertain, global demand is rising
    faster than it has done for 16 years. Yesterday morning, General Motors
    announced that it is spending $3bn on doubling its production of cars for
    the Chinese market. Seventy-four minutes later, we saw the first signs of
    entropy: the International Air Travel Association revealed that the airlines
    are likely to lose $3bn this year because of high oil prices. The cheap
    carriers complained that they could be forced out of the market.

    If the complexity of our economies is impossible to sustain, our best hope
    is to start to dismantle them before they collapse. This isn't very likely
    to happen. Faced with a choice between a bang and a whimper, our governments
    are likely to choose the bang, waging ever more extravagant wars to keep the
    show on the road. Terrorists, alert to both the west's rising need and the
    vulnerability of the pipeline and tanker networks, will respond with their
    own oil wars.

    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle," HG Wells wrote, "I no longer
    despair for the human race." It's a start, but I'd feel even more confident
    about our chances of survival if I saw George Bush and [censored] Cheney sharing a
    car to work.

    · George Monbiot's book The Age of Consent: a Manifesto for a New World
    Order is now published in paperback

    www.monbiot.com

    Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004

  2. B. Lafferty said:

    Break out the bicycles
    Oil is running out, but the west would rather wage wars than consider other
    energy sources

    George Monbiot
    Tuesday June 8, 2004

    The Guardian

    Some people have wacky ideas," the new Republican campaign ad alleges. "Like
    taxing gasoline more so people drive less. That's John Kerry." Cut to a shot
    of men in suits riding bicycles.
    Sadly, the accusation is false. Kerry has been demanding that the price of
    oil be held down. He wants George Bush to release supplies from the
    strategic reserve and persuade Saudi Arabia to increase production. He has
    been warning the American people that if the president doesn't act soon, he
    and [censored] Cheney will have to share a car to work. Men riding bicycles and
    sharing cars? Is there no end to this madness?

    Like the fuel protests that rose and receded in Britain last week, these
    exchanges are both moronic and entirely rational. The price of oil has been
    rising because demand for a finite resource is growing faster than supply.
    Holding the price down means that this resource will be depleted more
    quickly, with the result that the dreadful prospect of men sharing cars and
    riding bicycles comes ever closer. Perhaps the presidential candidates will
    start campaigning next against the passage of time.

    But a high oil price means recession and unemployment, which in turn means
    political failure for the man in charge. The attempt to blame the other man
    for finity will be one of the defining themes of the politics of the next
    few decades.

    This conflict was exemplified last month by the leader of the British fuel
    protests of 2000, Brynle Williams. "I'm afraid to say I'm not very proud of
    what happened three years ago," he admitted in a documentary broadcast on
    S4C on May 4. "We all want turbo-charged motors now ... but we must remember
    that it's some poor sod at the other end of the world who ends up paying for
    it." Five days later, on May 9, he told GMTV that he was ready to start
    protesting again. Self-awareness and self-interest don't seem to mix very
    well.

    To understand what is going to happen, we must first grasp the core fact of
    existence. Life is a struggle against entropy. Entropy can be roughly
    defined as the dispersal of energy. As soon as a system - whether an
    organism or an economy - runs out of energy, it starts to disintegrate. Its
    survival depends on seizing new sources of fuel.

    Biological evolution is driven by the need to grab the energy for which
    other organisms are competing. One result is increasing complexity: a tree
    can take more energy from the sun than the mosses on the forest floor; a
    tuna can seek out its prey more actively than a jellyfish. But the cost of
    this complexity is an enhanced requirement for energy. The same goes for our
    economies.

    They evolved in the presence of a source of energy that was both cheap to
    extract and cheap to use. There is, as yet, no substitute for it. Everything
    else is either more expensive or harder to use. Without cheap oil the
    economy would succumb to entropy.

    But the age of cheap oil is over. If you doubt this, take a look at the
    BBC's online report yesterday of a conference run by the Association for the
    Study of Peak Oil. The reporter spoke to the chief economist of the
    International Energy Agency, Fatih Birol. "In public, Mr Birol denied that
    supply would not be able to meet rising demand ... But after his speech he
    seemed to change his tune: 'For the time being there is no spare capacity.
    But we expect demand to increase by the fourth quarter by 3m barrels a day.
    If Saudi does not increase supply by 3m barrels a day by the end of the year
    we will face, how can I say this, it will be very difficult. We will have
    difficult times.'" The reporter asked him whether such a growth in supply
    was possible, or simply wishful thinking. "'You are from the press?' Birol
    replied. 'This is not for the press.'" So the BBC asked the other delegates
    what they thought of the prospects of a 30% increase in Saudi production.
    "The answers were unambiguous: 'absolutely out of the question'; 'completely
    impossible'; and '3m barrels - never, not even 300,000'. One delegate
    laughed so hard he had to support himself on a table." And this was before
    they heard that two BBC journalists had been gunned down in Riyadh.

    The world's problem is as follows. We now consume six barrels of oil for
    every new barrel we discover. Major oil finds (of over 500m barrels) peaked
    in 1964. In 2000, there were 13 such discoveries, in 2001 six, in 2002 two
    and in 2003 none. Three major new projects will come onstream in 2007 and
    three in 2008. For the following years, none have yet been scheduled.

    The oil industry tells us not to worry: the market will find a way of
    sorting this out. If the price of energy rises, new sources will come
    onstream. But new sources of what? Every other option is much more expensive
    than the cheap oil that made our economic complexity possible.

    The new technology designed to extract the dregs from old fields is
    expensive and doesn't seem to work very well, which is why Shell was forced
    to downgrade its anticipated reserves (other companies, under pressure from
    the US Securities and Exchange Commission, will surely follow). Extracting
    oil from tar sands and shales uses almost as much energy as it yields. The
    same goes for turning crops such as rape into biodiesel. Nuclear power is
    viable only if you overlook both the massive costs of decommissioning and
    the fact that no safe means has yet been discovered of disposing of the
    waste. We could cover the country with windmills and solar panels, but the
    electricity they produced would still be an expensive means of running our
    cars.

    Just as the oil supply begins to look uncertain, global demand is rising
    faster than it has done for 16 years. Yesterday morning, General Motors
    announced that it is spending $3bn on doubling its production of cars for
    the Chinese market. Seventy-four minutes later, we saw the first signs of
    entropy: the International Air Travel Association revealed that the airlines
    are likely to lose $3bn this year because of high oil prices. The cheap
    carriers complained that they could be forced out of the market.

    If the complexity of our economies is impossible to sustain, our best hope
    is to start to dismantle them before they collapse. This isn't very likely
    to happen. Faced with a choice between a bang and a whimper, our governments
    are likely to choose the bang, waging ever more extravagant wars to keep the
    show on the road. Terrorists, alert to both the west's rising need and the
    vulnerability of the pipeline and tanker networks, will respond with their
    own oil wars.

    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle," HG Wells wrote, "I no longer
    despair for the human race." It's a start, but I'd feel even more confident
    about our chances of survival if I saw George Bush and [censored] Cheney sharing a
    car to work.

    · George Monbiot's book The Age of Consent: a Manifesto for a New World
    Order is now published in paperback

    www.monbiot.com

    Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004

    The only times I've seen increases in bicycle ridership since I've
    gotten into riding were the second oil crisis about 1979 and the NYC
    transit strike in 1980.

    Steve

    Quoted message said:


  3. "B. Lafferty" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Break out the bicycles
    Oil is running out, but the west would rather wage wars than consider


    other

    Quoted message said:

    energy sources

    It's fun to be pro-bikes in a bike racing forum, but going from that article
    about basic supply and demand to "oil is running out" is a leap only
    superseded by trying to apply Goedel's Theorem to ultimate reality. To
    paraphrase mathematician Pedro Fortuny of Universidad de Valladolid, "One
    should use tools in their place. No one tries to obtain philosophical
    consequences from the fact that kids bikes made with steel are cheaper than
    racing bikes made with titanium. So, why one should do the same with
    Goedel's results on families of symbols? It could be used to have a deeper
    understanding of Mathematics, and maybe Science in general, but it is not
    applicable to general formal systems, nor to language or metaphysics." Nice
    idea about bikes go.

    Jim "Canada is self-sufficient in petrol but it's twice the price as in the
    States" Flom

  4. B. Lafferty said:

    The price of oil has been
    rising because demand for a finite resource is growing faster than supply.
    Holding the price down means that this resource will be depleted more
    quickly, with the result that the dreadful prospect of men sharing cars and
    riding bicycles comes ever closer.

    Hey, you can't talk sense here! This is r.b.r.!

    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps the presidential candidates will
    start campaigning next against the passage of time.

    If it would deliver Florida, they wouldn't even flinch.

    (all the rest some combination of sad and/or true)

    Mark Janeba
    (back to lurking)

  5. "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:Jvwxc.10934$NT6.5553@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Break out the bicycles
    Oil is running out, but the west would rather wage wars than consider


    other

    Quoted message said:

    energy sources

    It's fun to be pro-bikes in a bike racing forum, but going from that


    article

    Quoted message said:

    about basic supply and demand to "oil is running out" is a leap only
    superseded by trying to apply Goedel's Theorem to ultimate reality. To
    paraphrase mathematician Pedro Fortuny of Universidad de Valladolid, "One
    should use tools in their place. No one tries to obtain philosophical
    consequences from the fact that kids bikes made with steel are cheaper


    than

    Quoted message said:

    racing bikes made with titanium. So, why one should do the same with
    Goedel's results on families of symbols? It could be used to have a deeper
    understanding of Mathematics, and maybe Science in general, but it is not
    applicable to general formal systems, nor to language or metaphysics."


    Nice

    Quoted message said:

    idea about bikes go.

    Ya think there may be a reason Pedro is at the Univ. of Valladlolid and not
    Princeton? Perhaps you're just not paraphrasing well. You need to have
    another talk with that mathematician at your old congregation, Rev.

  6. Jim Flom said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Break out the bicycles
    Oil is running out, but the west would rather wage wars than consider

    other

    Quoted message said:

    energy sources

    It's fun to be pro-bikes in a bike racing forum, but going from that article
    about basic supply and demand to "oil is running out"

    While oil will probably not run out for another 50 years or so the issue
    is that major oil fields are passed their peak and there is only a
    finite amount that can be pumped in any one year. Hence prices will rise
    as developing economies compete for the resource. European economies are
    better insulated from this than the US as fuel is much more heavily
    taxed... but those self same European economies rely on the US economy
    to stimulate demand.

  7. "B. Lafferty" wrote...

    Quoted message said:


    You need to have
    another talk with that mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

  8. "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:veExc.18945$NT6.9206@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote...

    Quoted message said:


    You need to have
    another talk with that mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

    She. And she told you that what I said about Gödel and religion as a formal
    system, was correct. I can dig out your email and post it if you like.

    I know that Gödel's Theorem presents major problems for some people of faith
    in that any claim to certainty about the divinity of any specific God (e.g.,
    Jesus as God and Man) can not be presented as absolute truth. The theorem
    doesn't prove that your truth is untrue; it simply proves that other truths
    must, of logical necessity, exist outside your formal system (in this case
    faith/religious system). Any one of those other truths could be at odds
    with and/or negate the truth you espouse.

    That why Unitarian Universalism, as a non-creedal faith, is so appealing to
    many, including me. Travel your path in peace.

  9. On 6/9/04 7:34 AM, in article
    [email hidden], "B. Lafferty"

    Quoted message said:


    "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:veExc.18945$NT6.9206@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote...

    Quoted message said:


    You need to have
    another talk with that mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

    She. And she told you that what I said about Gödel and religion as a formal
    system, was correct. I can dig out your email and post it if you like.

    I know that Gödel's Theorem presents major problems for some people of faith
    in that any claim to certainty about the divinity of any specific God (e.g.,
    Jesus as God and Man) can not be presented as absolute truth. The theorem
    doesn't prove that your truth is untrue; it simply proves that other truths
    must, of logical necessity, exist outside your formal system (in this case
    faith/religious system). Any one of those other truths could be at odds
    with and/or negate the truth you espouse.

    That why Unitarian Universalism, as a non-creedal faith, is so appealing to
    many, including me. Travel your path in peace.

    http://www.unarius.org/mov/Uriel.rm

  10. "Steve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 6/9/04 7:34 AM, in article
    [email hidden], "B. Lafferty"

    Quoted message said:


    "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:veExc.18945$NT6.9206@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote...
    >
    > You need to have
    > another talk with that mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

    She. And she told you that what I said about Gödel and religion as a


    formal

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    system, was correct. I can dig out your email and post it if you like.

    I know that Gödel's Theorem presents major problems for some people of


    faith

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in that any claim to certainty about the divinity of any specific God


    (e.g.,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Jesus as God and Man) can not be presented as absolute truth. The


    theorem

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    doesn't prove that your truth is untrue; it simply proves that other


    truths

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    must, of logical necessity, exist outside your formal system (in this


    case

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    faith/religious system). Any one of those other truths could be at odds
    with and/or negate the truth you espouse.

    That why Unitarian Universalism, as a non-creedal faith, is so appealing


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    many, including me. Travel your path in peace.

    http://www.unarius.org/mov/Uriel.rm

    Lovely, but not what I was thinking of. How about

    http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

  11. "Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    The only times I've seen increases in bicycle ridership since I've
    gotten into riding were the second oil crisis about 1979 and the NYC
    transit strike in 1980.

    Steve

    And what happened these riders after these events?

  12. "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:Jvwxc.10934$NT6.5553@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Break out the bicycles
    Oil is running out, but the west would rather wage wars than consider


    other

    Quoted message said:

    energy sources

    It's fun to be pro-bikes in a bike racing forum, but going from that


    article

    Quoted message said:

    about basic supply and demand to "oil is running out" is a leap only
    superseded by trying to apply Goedel's Theorem to ultimate reality. To
    paraphrase mathematician Pedro Fortuny of Universidad de Valladolid, "One
    should use tools in their place. No one tries to obtain philosophical
    consequences from the fact that kids bikes made with steel are cheaper


    than

    Quoted message said:

    racing bikes made with titanium. So, why one should do the same with
    Goedel's results on families of symbols? It could be used to have a deeper
    understanding of Mathematics, and maybe Science in general, but it is not
    applicable to general formal systems, nor to language or metaphysics."


    Nice

    Quoted message said:

    idea about bikes go.

    Jim "Canada is self-sufficient in petrol but it's twice the price as in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    States" Flom

    I would like to see the US tax gasoline at similar rates as the continental
    European countries do. If the extra income were required to go in to public
    transit projects and subsidies (lowed ticket prices) you would see much
    fewer cars on the road. It has to happen soon but no politician wants to
    explain this to their constituents. So why are these suicide candidates not
    talking about such a plan? That is their entire role (to raise issues that
    serious candidates can't afford to). Come on Nader!

    Just imagine how many SUVs and large cars with single passengers you would
    (not) see 5 years or less after such a plan were executed...

  13. "Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    The only times I've seen increases in bicycle ridership since I've
    gotten into riding were the second oil crisis about 1979 and the NYC
    transit strike in 1980.

    Steve

    And what happened these riders after these events?


    Some of us are still alive and riding. I still remember cycling down from
    86th and Fifth on the first day of the transit strike. It was awsome to see
    all of those cyclist going to work. But, it didn't really transform the
    city commuting habits of may as they preferred mass transit and still do.
    Mass T is still better than single occupant drivers.

  14. "Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:Jvwxc.10934$NT6.5553@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote ...

    Quoted message said:

    Break out the bicycles
    Oil is running out, but the west would rather wage wars than consider


    other

    Quoted message said:

    energy sources

    It's fun to be pro-bikes in a bike racing forum, but going from that


    article

    Quoted message said:

    about basic supply and demand to "oil is running out" is a leap only
    superseded by trying to apply Goedel's Theorem to ultimate reality. To
    paraphrase mathematician Pedro Fortuny of Universidad de Valladolid,


    "One

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    should use tools in their place. No one tries to obtain philosophical
    consequences from the fact that kids bikes made with steel are cheaper


    than

    Quoted message said:

    racing bikes made with titanium. So, why one should do the same with
    Goedel's results on families of symbols? It could be used to have a


    deeper

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    understanding of Mathematics, and maybe Science in general, but it is


    not

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    applicable to general formal systems, nor to language or metaphysics."


    Nice

    Quoted message said:

    idea about bikes go.

    Jim "Canada is self-sufficient in petrol but it's twice the price as in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    States" Flom

    I would like to see the US tax gasoline at similar rates as the


    continental

    Quoted message said:

    European countries do. If the extra income were required to go in to


    public

    Quoted message said:

    transit projects and subsidies (lowed ticket prices) you would see much
    fewer cars on the road. It has to happen soon but no politician wants to
    explain this to their constituents. So why are these suicide candidates


    not

    Quoted message said:

    talking about such a plan? That is their entire role (to raise issues that
    serious candidates can't afford to). Come on Nader!

    Just imagine how many SUVs and large cars with single passengers you would
    (not) see 5 years or less after such a plan were executed...

    From your lips to God's ears. Pick a God and we'll try sending a message.
    ;-)

  15. "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:veExc.18945$NT6.9206@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote...

    Quoted message said:


    You need to have
    another talk with that mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

    She. And she told you that what I said about Gödel and religion as a


    formal

    Quoted message said:

    system, was correct. I can dig out your email and post it if you like.

    I know that Gödel's Theorem presents major problems for some people of


    faith

    Quoted message said:

    in that any claim to certainty about the divinity of any specific God


    (e.g.,

    Quoted message said:

    Jesus as God and Man) can not be presented as absolute truth. The theorem
    doesn't prove that your truth is untrue; it simply proves that other


    truths

    Quoted message said:

    must, of logical necessity, exist outside your formal system (in this case
    faith/religious system). Any one of those other truths could be at odds
    with and/or negate the truth you espouse.

    That why Unitarian Universalism, as a non-creedal faith, is so appealing


    to

    Quoted message said:

    many, including me.

    Don't you know that Satan is predicted to oraganize something along those
    lines? A few years after it gains popular support, the other religions will
    be attacked and repressed before ultimately outlawing them as "against
    peace" and so on. This all happens at around the time of one world currency
    and so on. I am not saying it will happen any time soon, but it is a bit
    strange just how many prophecies from the Book of Revelation seem to be
    falling in to place or at least not appearing as outlandish as they did a
    few decades ago.

    Quoted message said:

    Travel your path in peace.

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions (of a one world religion and
    a unified glabal currency).

  16. "Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:veExc.18945$NT6.9206@clgrps13...

    Quoted message said:

    "B. Lafferty" wrote...
    >
    > You need to have
    > another talk with that mathematician ...

    He thought you are a whackjob too.

    She. And she told you that what I said about Gödel and religion as a


    formal

    Quoted message said:

    system, was correct. I can dig out your email and post it if you like.

    I know that Gödel's Theorem presents major problems for some people of


    faith

    Quoted message said:

    in that any claim to certainty about the divinity of any specific God


    (e.g.,

    Quoted message said:

    Jesus as God and Man) can not be presented as absolute truth. The


    theorem

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    doesn't prove that your truth is untrue; it simply proves that other


    truths

    Quoted message said:

    must, of logical necessity, exist outside your formal system (in this


    case

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    faith/religious system). Any one of those other truths could be at odds
    with and/or negate the truth you espouse.

    That why Unitarian Universalism, as a non-creedal faith, is so appealing


    to

    Quoted message said:

    many, including me.

    Don't you know that Satan is predicted to oraganize something along those
    lines? A few years after it gains popular support, the other religions


    will

    Quoted message said:

    be attacked and repressed before ultimately outlawing them as "against
    peace" and so on. This all happens at around the time of one world


    currency

    Quoted message said:

    and so on. I am not saying it will happen any time soon, but it is a bit
    strange just how many prophecies from the Book of Revelation seem to be
    falling in to place or at least not appearing as outlandish as they did a
    few decades ago.

    Quoted message said:

    Travel your path in peace.

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions (of a one world religion


    and

    Quoted message said:

    a unified glabal currency).

    And the definition of Irish diplomacy is to be able to tell a man to go to
    Hell in such a way that he will enjoy the journey.

  17. "Steve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.unarius.org/mov/Uriel.rm

    I sure hope you are joking. She seems to be, but then again she could be
    conpletely insane.

  18. "Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Steve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.unarius.org/mov/Uriel.rm

    I sure hope you are joking. She seems to be, but then again she could be
    conpletely insane.

    I don't think she's joking.

  19. Chris said:

    I am not saying it will happen any time soon, but it is a bit
    strange just how many prophecies from the Book of Revelation seem to be
    falling in to place or at least not appearing as outlandish as they did a
    few decades ago.

    To some. Still seem pretty outlandish to me. FWIW, every few centuries
    large numbers of people start believing they see the prophecies of
    Revelations around them. Most of them did see the end of the world as
    they knew it, but it was pretty much one at a time...

    My version of God wouldn't find Revelations all that interesting, just
    a bit amusing. Fleas writing about the dog, wondering when the next
    bath time comes. What the heck it has to do with bicycle racing I
    haven't a clue, unless it was being dropped in 100 degree weather in
    Texas and desperately hoping for universal salvation in the form of a
    broomwagon.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

  20. Chris said:

    I would like to see the US tax gasoline at similar rates as the continental
    European countries do. If the extra income were required to go in to public
    transit projects and subsidies (lowed ticket prices) you would see much
    fewer cars on the road.

    About a decade after the end of the Federalist system in the U.S. No
    fed tax will be targeted strictly at transit projects and subsidies
    because most states do not have a high need for such projects. There
    are more states like Kansas, Arizona and Wyoming than California, New
    York and the Washington DC area. Population and population centers are
    irrelevant - what counts is how the real votes are counted.

    State by state doing it would be cool, because it would make for some
    fascinating boundary condition economics as millions of people make a
    once or twice a week decision on how far they would drive for a 30 or
    40 cent or dollar difference per gallon.

    Curtis L. Russell
    Odenton, MD (USA)
    Just someone on two wheels...

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