Braking while turning?

"Sir Ridesalot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
no time to make that panic turn.

See http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/RoadVogue.htm for some
techniques like "Instaturn" and "Panic Stop".

Mike Kruger said:

"Sir Ridesalot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
no time to make that panic turn.

See http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/RoadVogue.htm for some
techniques like "Instaturn" and "Panic Stop".

Speed on a safer turn?
Bill Baka

Less cars?

"Mike Kruger" wrote: See
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/RoadVogue.htm for some techniques
like "Instaturn" (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I was hoping to learn something. Instead, I find out that "instaturn" is
his name for the process of riding and balancing a bicycle. *If you must
turn right, start by turning to the left.* Most of us know that this is how
to initiate the lean needed to stay balanced in a turn. Even people who
don't know how to explain it, do it without knowing. I am convinced that
anyone who consciously tries to remember to do this in an emergency will
probably freeze at the controls, and crash.

Leo Lichtman said:

"Mike Kruger" wrote: See
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/RoadVogue.htm for some techniques
like "Instaturn" (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I was hoping to learn something. Instead, I find out that "instaturn" is
his name for the process of riding and balancing a bicycle. *If you must
turn right, start by turning to the left.* Most of us know that this is how
to initiate the lean needed to stay balanced in a turn. Even people who
don't know how to explain it, do it without knowing. I am convinced that
anyone who consciously tries to remember to do this in an emergency will
probably freeze at the controls, and crash.

I know what you mean.

The advice given there I already knew.

My understanding is that braking in a turn is almost a surefire way to
go down.

I was hoping that someone here would know a method that would allow
emergency braking once one is in the turn and leaning without causing a
wipeout.

Peter

Sir Ridesalot said:

I know what you mean.

The advice given there I already knew.

My understanding is that braking in a turn is almost a surefire way to
go down.

I was hoping that someone here would know a method that would allow
emergency braking once one is in the turn and leaning without causing a
wipeout.

Peter

Peter, all I know is that I ride mostly in a very large residential
area. Though there are some excellent long stretches because of a major
golf course that is here, I still have some otherwise wonderful
downhills with connecting residential streets. The only thing I can do
about them is to moderate my speed for the potential hazards. I don't
know any way to shut the speed down without dumping the bike, which I
don't want to do, so I just have to keep the speed down, since I can't
rely on the motorists to always see me.

catzz66 said:

Sir Ridesalot said:

I know what you mean.

The advice given there I already knew.

My understanding is that braking in a turn is almost a surefire way to
go down.

I was hoping that someone here would know a method that would allow
emergency braking once one is in the turn and leaning without causing a
wipeout.

Peter

Peter, all I know is that I ride mostly in a very large residential
area. Though there are some excellent long stretches because of a major
golf course that is here, I still have some otherwise wonderful
downhills with connecting residential streets. The only thing I can do
about them is to moderate my speed for the potential hazards. I don't
know any way to shut the speed down without dumping the bike, which I
don't want to do, so I just have to keep the speed down, since I can't
rely on the motorists to always see me.

Since I am up early today I will follow up on what I posted earlier.
Speed on a safer turn, it really is that simple. I rode motorcycles to
the edge and have done so with bicycles and trust me, you doe not want
to use the front brake unless you PLAN to go down. The rear wheel can
skid some and you have some control, even if that control is, as my
motorcycle friends say, just to lay it down and skid. Using the front
brake on a turn is a fool's move, with or without a motor. They are only
good for straight line, good pavement slowing. Years of motored and
pedaled bikes have driven this into me pretty good, road rash included.
If you just have to make a best time run out of a corner where cars may
be then you need another route or quit trying to race on blind turns.
You'll live longer.
Bill Baka (resident survivor)

Sir Ridesalot said:

Here is the scenario. You are riding along at a good speed, you enter a
turn and have leaned the bicycle when a car or pedestrian enters the
road in front of you.

You are not able to go around the obstruction.

Is there a safe way to brake in such circumstances without having the
bicycle slide out from under you?

There is a long winding hill where I often ride here in town. Many
times on the curve I have had either a car pull out in front of me or a
person start to cross the road. Thus far I have been able to take
evasive action by turning onto the side street the car was exiting
from. I watch that intersection as soon as it comes in view.

However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
no time to make that panic turn.

Thanks for all relevant advice.

Peter

From:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html>

Braking

Once the basics of getting around a corner are developed, doing it
fast involves careful use of the brakes. Besides knowing how steeply to
lean in curves, understanding braking makes the difference between the
average and the fast rider. When approaching a curve with good traction,
the front brake can be used almost exclusively, because it is capable of
slowing the bicycle so rapidly that nearly all weight transfers to the
front wheel, at which point the rear brake is nearly useless. Once in
the curve, more and more traction is used to resist lateral slip as the
lean angle increases, but that does not mean the brakes cannot be used.
When banked over, braking should be done with both brakes, because now
neither wheel has much traction to spare and with lighter braking,
weight transfers diminishes. A feel for how hard the front brake must be
applied for rear wheel lift-off, can be developed at low speed.

Braking in Corners

Why brake in the turn? If all braking is done before the turn,
speed will be slower than necessary before the apex. Anticipating
maximum speed for the apex is difficult, and because the path is not a
circular arc, speed must be trimmed all the way to that point. Fear of
braking in curves usually comes from an incident of injudicious braking
at a point where braking should have been done with a gentle touch to
match the conditions.

Substantial weight transfer from the rear to the front wheel will
occur with strong use of the front brake on good traction just before
entering the curve. When traction is poor or the lean angle is great,
deceleration cannot be large and therefore, weight transfer will be
small, so light braking with both wheels is appropriate. If traction is
miserable, only the rear brake should be used, because although a rear
skid is recoverable, a front skid is generally not. An exception to this
is in deep snow, where the front wheel can slide and function as a sled
runner while being steered.

Braking at maximum lean

For braking in a curve, take the example of a rider cornering with
good traction, leaning at 45 degrees, the equivalent of 1G centrifugal
acceleration. Braking with 1/10g increases the traction demand by one
half percent. The sum of cornering and braking vectors is the square
root of the sum of their squares, SQRT(1^2+0.1^2)=1.005 or an increase
of 0.005. In other words, there is room to brake substantially during
maximum cornering. Because the lean angle changes as the square of the
speed, braking can rapidly reduce the angle and allow even more braking.
For this reason skilled racers nearly always apply both brakes into the
apex of turns.

Peter Cole said:

Sir Ridesalot said:

Here is the scenario. You are riding along at a good speed, you enter a
turn and have leaned the bicycle when a car or pedestrian enters the
road in front of you.

You are not able to go around the obstruction.

Is there a safe way to brake in such circumstances without having the
bicycle slide out from under you?

There is a long winding hill where I often ride here in town. Many
times on the curve I have had either a car pull out in front of me or a
person start to cross the road. Thus far I have been able to take
evasive action by turning onto the side street the car was exiting
from. I watch that intersection as soon as it comes in view.

However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
no time to make that panic turn.

Thanks for all relevant advice.

Peter

From:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html>

Braking

Once the basics of getting around a corner are developed, doing it
fast involves careful use of the brakes. Besides knowing how steeply to
lean in curves, understanding braking makes the difference between the
average and the fast rider. When approaching a curve with good traction,
the front brake can be used almost exclusively, because it is capable of
slowing the bicycle so rapidly that nearly all weight transfers to the
front wheel, at which point the rear brake is nearly useless. Once in
the curve, more and more traction is used to resist lateral slip as the
lean angle increases, but that does not mean the brakes cannot be used.
When banked over, braking should be done with both brakes, because now
neither wheel has much traction to spare and with lighter braking,
weight transfers diminishes. A feel for how hard the front brake must be
applied for rear wheel lift-off, can be developed at low speed.

Did you watch the TdF at all. One rider made it with just his rear wheel
slipping out a bit. The next 3 ate it, badly enough for one to go to the
hospital and be out of the race.

Quoted message said:

Braking in Corners

Why brake in the turn? If all braking is done before the turn, speed
will be slower than necessary before the apex. Anticipating maximum
speed for the apex is difficult, and because the path is not a circular
arc, speed must be trimmed all the way to that point. Fear of braking in
curves usually comes from an incident of injudicious braking at a point
where braking should have been done with a gentle touch to match the
conditions.

Braking in corners is a big no-no because you are usually at the
traction limit of the tire and the 700 x 25 or thereabouts don't have
much tread to spare.

Quoted message said:

Substantial weight transfer from the rear to the front wheel will
occur with strong use of the front brake on good traction just before
entering the curve. When traction is poor or the lean angle is great,
deceleration cannot be large and therefore, weight transfer will be
small, so light braking with both wheels is appropriate. If traction is
miserable, only the rear brake should be used, because although a rear
skid is recoverable, a front skid is generally not. An exception to this
is in deep snow, where the front wheel can slide and function as a sled
runner while being steered.

Never tried it but it sounds like fun if you fall into the soft snow.

Quoted message said:

Braking at maximum lean

For braking in a curve, take the example of a rider cornering with
good traction, leaning at 45 degrees, the equivalent of 1G centrifugal
acceleration. Braking with 1/10g increases the traction demand by one
half percent. The sum of cornering and braking vectors is the square
root of the sum of their squares, SQRT(1^2+0.1^2)=1.005 or an increase
of 0.005. In other words, there is room to brake substantially during
maximum cornering. Because the lean angle changes as the square of the
speed, braking can rapidly reduce the angle and allow even more braking.
For this reason skilled racers nearly always apply both brakes into the
apex of turns.

I have gotten to about 45%, don't know how close and it was scary, being
on the limit of traction. That was the point where I did not want to
push it since I was passing cars on a 15% downhill and doing about 50
MPH +. Not the time to find out how bad road rash feels when there is a
car right behind you in the turn.

Bill Baka

Sir Ridesalot said:

My understanding is that braking in a turn is almost a surefire way to
go down.

Not true at all. It's all about moderation and modulation. (And, if you
really HAVE to "panic brake", then going down is most likely preferable to
whatever the other choice was!)

Quoted message said:

I was hoping that someone here would know a method that would allow
emergency braking once one is in the turn and leaning without causing
a wipeout.

Practice it. Learn how to scrub speed quickly, turn the front wheel to
avoid sliding out, unclip inside foot if possible, etc.

Bill Baka said:

Did you watch the TdF at all. One rider made it with just his rear
wheel slipping out a bit. The next 3 ate it, badly enough for one to
go to the hospital and be out of the race.

That wasn't a "pure braking" situation. They hit loose, sandy gravel on the
inside of the turn and lost traction. (Some think the road tar was "melty
soft" there as well.)

Bill Sornson said:

Bill Baka said:

Did you watch the TdF at all. One rider made it with just his rear
wheel slipping out a bit. The next 3 ate it, badly enough for one to
go to the hospital and be out of the race.

That wasn't a "pure braking" situation. They hit loose, sandy gravel on the
inside of the turn and lost traction. (Some think the road tar was "melty
soft" there as well.)

Still,
It serves as an example of trying to go too fast on a turn.
Bill Baka

Bill Baka said:

Bill Sornson said:

Bill Baka said:

Did you watch the TdF at all. One rider made it with just his rear
wheel slipping out a bit. The next 3 ate it, badly enough for one to
go to the hospital and be out of the race.

That wasn't a "pure braking" situation. They hit loose, sandy gravel on the
inside of the turn and lost traction. (Some think the road tar was "melty
soft" there as well.)

Still,
It serves as an example of trying to go too fast on a turn.
Bill Baka

Bill,

No, you are incorrect.
It was a prime example of a cyclist taking the wrong line on a curve.
The rider following the lead bike that caught the gravel had good
traction and a good line and was not going too fast for the turn.
He was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It was gravel, not braking, not going too fast.
It was a race, not a ride for a cup of coffee or an ice cream cone.

-bdbafh

Peter said:

Here is the scenario. You are riding along at a good speed, you enter a
turn and have leaned the bicycle when a car or pedestrian enters the
road in front of you.

You are not able to go around the obstruction.

Is there a safe way to brake in such circumstances without having the
bicycle slide out from under you?

There is a long winding hill where I often ride here in town. Many
times on the curve I have had either a car pull out in front of me or a
person start to cross the road. Thus far I have been able to take
evasive action by turning onto the side street the car was exiting
from. I watch that intersection as soon as it comes in view.

However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
no time to make that panic turn.

If this happened to me often enough to start thinking about that
location, I would:

--ride further out in the lane so as to be more visible

--practice with my personal PA system (the loud shout)

--experiment with various loud comments such as "HEY!" or "NO BRAKES!"

Or take it slower.

HTH

--Karen D.

Sir Ridesalot said:

Here is the scenario. You are riding along at a good speed, you enter a
turn and have leaned the bicycle when a car or pedestrian enters the
road in front of you.

You are not able to go around the obstruction.

Is there a safe way to brake in such circumstances without having the
bicycle slide out from under you?

There is a long winding hill where I often ride here in town. Many
times on the curve I have had either a car pull out in front of me or a
person start to cross the road. Thus far I have been able to take
evasive action by turning onto the side street the car was exiting
from. I watch that intersection as soon as it comes in view.

However I am curious as to whether there is a safe way to bleed off a
lot of speed, ie brake, while still leaning in the curve if there was
no time to make that panic turn.

Thanks for all relevant advice.

Peter

Here's an innovative thought: run fatter tires at lower pressures.

Thin high-pressure tires have the least rolling resistance, but they
also have the least traction, especially on poor surfaces. How important
is not crashing? Especially when you're not actually racing anyway?
~

I may be off-base here, but after riding motocross for the past six
years, I don't see much of an issue with braking while turning. A lot
of people will tell you that on a motorcycle, you should have most of
your braking done before entering a turn (considering how much wider
the rear tire is than the front, so it gives better support/traction
while accelerating rather than decelerating), which is mostly true, but
braking while turning isn't a severe no-no.

If that rear wheel is going to slide, move your weight back to get more
of it over that wheel for better traction. Same goes for the front.
Always, always weight the outside pedal for better traction, especially
on a bicycle. Better yet, if a slide commences, get off the brakes a
bit and for god's sake, keep your eyes and head up.

And keep it on two wheels. You'll come to a stop much faster on rubber
tires rather than your ass.

Quoted message said:

My understanding is that braking in a turn is almost a surefire way to
go down.

No strictly true. The more accurate statement is: "Exceeding the traction
limit of the tire in a turn is almost a sure way to go down".

The key is to gain enough experience so you can brake closer to the traction
limit, without exceeding it.

If you have to pick a tire to lose traction with, the rear is the clear
choice. I've briefly broken traction on my rear tire on occasion but was
able restore traction by immediatlely releasing the brake.

Not that I'm recommending you try doing this.

Good luck!

Chris Neary
[email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

Bill Baka <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

....

Quoted message said:

If you just have to make a best time run out of a corner
where cars may be then you need another route or quit trying to race
on blind turns. You'll live longer.
Bill Baka (resident survivor)

The nasty thing in addition is cars have a habit of being in the center of
the road in the curve, too. That's how car-car accidents occur, but they
have seatbelts and airbags.

A trip over the handlebars while trying to scrub off speed when a car and I
nearly met in the middle of a turn, and the courtesy stitches afterwards,
cured me of taking even familiar corners fast and wide.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill Baka said:

Quoted message said:

Braking in Corners

Why brake in the turn? If all braking is done before the turn, speed
will be slower than necessary before the apex. Anticipating maximum
speed for the apex is difficult, and because the path is not a circular
arc, speed must be trimmed all the way to that point. Fear of braking in
curves usually comes from an incident of injudicious braking at a point
where braking should have been done with a gentle touch to match the
conditions.

Braking in corners is a big no-no because you are usually at the
traction limit of the tire and the 700 x 25 or thereabouts don't have
much tread to spare.

_ Please restrain your drivel to unimportant topics. Learning to
brake at the apex of a corner is essential to long term survival
as cyclist. On dry solid pavement, most people get no where near
the traction limit of the bike. If you aren't braking in turns
now, start practicing, it could save your life some day.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Ride the hill slower if it's that dangerous, or better yet, find a safer
hill! Hard braking in a hard turn usually equals a skid, so if it comes
to that, purposly skid the rear wheel ala' BMX style. At least that way
you'll be less likely to seriouly crash.

- -
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