Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

Braking while turning

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18 July 2003
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eyagerusenet
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  1. Joe Riel said:

    effective method. Consider a blind turn with a tightening radius---how would you negotiate it if
    you didn't turn while braking? You'd never know if you'd slowed enough to start turning.

    True, but you also couldn't blast into that turn going the full speed that you judge you can
    handle for the section you CAN see, assuming that you'll deal with the section you CAN'T see when
    it's too late.

    Anybody who isn't sure when to brake should listen to their stomach and their fear, and do what's
    required to make them comfortable. If you're tense and scared, you'll definately wipe out.

    There are just too damn many variables to make hard-and-fast rules and mathematical formulas...but I
    guess this thread isn't about reality, but rather, theory.

    Quoted message said:

    Joe


    --
    Rick Onanian

  2. "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message news:EzzTa.14689$Bp2.7758@fed1read07...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Have you guys actually DONE this? or are you just repeating things?

    Since it was (stated as) a quote from the FAQ, I certainly was "repeating things". But it is
    only simple vector math, something bicycles (and


    everything

    Quoted message said:

    else in the universe) must comply with.

    The math's great, but have you actually DONE what you're preaching?

    I've done it both ways. Braking going straight, then turning seems to work better for me. Seems
    that I can corner harder when I'm not braking in the middle of the turn. Then again YMMV...

    I don't know what you mean by "corner harder". The example was given to explain the technique for
    getting through a corner *fastest*. If you don't care about speed, keep doing it your way, it
    doesn't harm anything, it's just unnecessarily conservative.

  3. Rick Onanian said:

    True, but you also couldn't blast into that turn going the full speed that you judge you can
    handle for the section you CAN see, assuming that you'll deal with the section you CAN'T see when
    it's too late.

    Of course, but no one has suggested that braking should only be done while turning. The converse,
    that braking should never be done while turning, is frequently suggested. The purpose of the theory
    is to show that significant braking can be accomplished while turning.

    Joe

  4. Mike S. said:
    Quoted message said:

    I don't know what you mean by "corner harder". The example was given to explain the technique for
    getting through a corner *fastest*. If you don't care about speed, keep doing it your way, it
    doesn't harm anything, it's just unnecessarily conservative.


    That's something considering that you have no clue how fast most of the guys here can get down a
    mountain.

    Keep up the blanket statements!

    Okay. It's true for everyone, now matter how fast they can get down a mountain.

    Some blanket statements are true.

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    On a paper submitted by a physicist colleague: "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --
    Wolfgang Pauli

  5. "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message news:50UTa.15258$Bp2.7531@fed1read07...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I don't know what you mean by "corner harder". The example was given to explain the technique
    for getting through a corner *fastest*. If you don't care about speed, keep doing it your way,
    it doesn't harm anything, it's


    just

    Quoted message said:

    unnecessarily conservative.


    That's something considering that you have no clue how fast most of the guys here can get down a
    mountain.

    I don't have to. I know that if you corner the way you say you do you're not as fast as
    you could be.

    Quoted message said:

    Keep up the blanket statements!

    Yeah, vector math = "blanket statement". Sure.

  6. Subject: 9.15 Descending II From: Jobst Brandt <[email hidden]> Date: Fri, 11 May
    2001 16:35:42 PDT

    Descending and Fast Cornering

    Descending on mountain roads, bicycles can reach speeds that are more common on motorcycles. Speeds
    that are otherwise not attainable, or at least not continuously. Criterium racing also presents this
    challenge, but not as intensely. Unlike a motorcycle, the bicycle is lighter than the rider and
    power cannot be applied when banked over when cornering hard. Because narrow bicycle tires inflated
    hard have little traction margin, a slip on pavement is usually unrecoverable.

    Drifting a Road Bicycle on Pavement

    Riders have claimed they can slide a bicycle on dry pavement in curves to achieve greater cornering
    speed, as in drifting through a turn. A drift, in contrast to a slide, means that both wheels slip,
    which is even more difficult. This notion may come from observing motorcycles, that can cause a rear
    wheel slide by applying power when banked over. Besides, when questioned about how this is done, the
    proponent says that the ability was observed, done by others.

    A bicycle can be pedaled only at lean angles far less than the maximum without grounding a pedal, so
    hard cornering is always done coasting, hence, there is no power in hard cornering. Although
    bicycles with high ground clearance have been built, they showed only that pedaling imbalance has
    such a disturbing influence on traction, that pedaling at a greater lean angle than that of a
    standard road racing bicycles has no benefit. That is why road bicycles are built the way they are,
    no higher than is useful.

    That bicycle tires have no margin for recovering a slip at maximum lean angle, has been tested
    in lean-slip tests on roads and testing machines. For smooth tires on pavement, slipout occurs
    at slightly less than 45 degrees from the road surface and is both precipitous and
    unrecoverable. Although knobby tires have a less sudden slipout and can be drifted around
    curves, they begin to side-slip at a more upright angle as their tread fingers walk rather than
    slip. For this reason, knobby tires cannot achieve lean angles of smooth tires and offer no
    cornering advantage on pavement.

    How to Corner

    Cornering requires estimating the required lean angle before reaching the apex of the turn where the
    angle with the road surface is the critical parameter rather the angle with the vertical, as is
    evident from banked curves. Lean angle is limited by the available traction that must be assessed
    from velocity and appearance of the surface. For good pavement, this angle is about 45 degrees, in
    the absence of oil, water, or smooth and slick spots. Therefore, a curve banked inward 10 degrees,
    allows a lean of up to at least 55 degrees from the vertical, while a crowned road with no banking,
    where the surface falls off about 10 degrees, would allow only up to 35 degrees.

    Banked curves have a greater effect than just adding to the maximum lean angle, because with a
    steeper banking, more of the centripetal cornering force goes into increasing traction directly into
    the banking up to the point of a vertical wall where only the maximum G-forces limit what speed a
    bicyclists can attain. In contrast, an off banked curve makes cornering progressively more difficult
    until the bicycle will slip even at zero speed. This effect is more naturally apparent to riders who
    exceeded these limits early in life and have added the experience to expected natural phenomena.

    The skill of visualizing effects of speed, traction, braking, and curvature are complex, but is
    something humans and other creatures do regularly in self propulsion. The difficulty arises in
    adapting this to higher speeds. When running, we anticipate how fast and sharply to turn on a
    sidewalk, dirt track, or lawn, to avoid sliding. The method is the same on a bicycle although the
    consequences of error are more severe.

    Cornering requires reflexes to dynamics that are easily developed in youth, while people who have
    not exercised this in a long time find they can no longer summon these skills. A single fall
    strongly reinforces doubt, so cautious practice is advisable if returning to bicycling after a
    long time.

    Countersteer

    Countersteer is a popular subject for people who belatedly discover or rediscover how to balance.
    What is not apparent, is that two wheeled vehicles can be controlled ONLY by countersteer, there is
    no other way. Unlike a car, a bicycle cannot be diverted from a straight path by steering the wheel
    to one side. The bicycle must first be leaned in that direction by steering it ever so slightly the
    other way. This is the means by which a broomstick is balanced on the palm of the hand or a bicycle
    on the road. The point of support is moved beneath the mass, in line with the combined forces of
    gravity and cornering, and it requires steering, counter and otherwise. It is so obvious that
    runners never mention it, although football, basketball, and ice hockey players conspicuously do it.

    Braking

    Once the basics of getting around a corner are developed, doing it fast involves careful use of the
    brakes. Besides knowing how steeply to lean in curves, understanding braking makes the difference
    between the average and the fast rider. When approaching a curve with good traction, the front brake
    can be used almost exclusively, because it is capable of slowing the bicycle so rapidly that nearly
    all weight transfers to the front wheel, at which point the rear brake is nearly useless. Once in
    the curve, more and more traction is used to resist lateral slip as the lean angle increases, but
    that does not mean the brakes cannot be used. When banked over, braking should be done with both
    brakes, because now neither wheel has much traction to spare and with lighter braking, weight
    transfers diminishes. A feel for how hard the front brake must be applied for rear wheel lift-off,
    can be developed at low speed.

    Braking in Corners

    Why brake in the turn? If all braking is done before the turn, speed will be slower than necessary
    before the apex. Anticipating maximum speed for the apex is difficult, and because the path is not a
    circular arc, speed must be trimmed all the way to that point. Fear of braking in curves usually
    comes from an incident of injudicious braking at a point where braking should have been done with a
    gentle touch to match the conditions.

    Substantial weight transfer from the rear to the front wheel will occur with strong use of the front
    brake on good traction just before entering the curve. When traction is poor or the lean angle is
    great, deceleration cannot be large and therefore, weight transfer will be small, so light braking
    with both wheels is appropriate. If traction is miserable, only the rear brake should be used,
    because although a rear skid is recoverable, a front skid is generally not. An exception to this is
    in deep snow, where the front wheel can slide and function as a sled runner while being steered.

    Braking at maximum lean

    For braking in a curve, take the example of a rider cornering with good traction, leaning at 45
    degrees, the equivalent of 1G centrifugal acceleration. Braking with 1/10g increases the traction
    demand by one half percent. The sum of cornering and braking vectors is the square root of the sum
    of their squares, SQRT(1^2+0.1^2)=1.005 or an increase of 0.005. In other words, there is room to
    brake substantially during maximum cornering. Because the lean angle changes as the square of the
    speed, braking can rapidly reduce the angle and allow even more braking. For this reason skilled
    racers nearly always apply both brakes into the apex of turns.

    Suspension

    Beyond leaning and braking, suspension helps substantially in descending. For bicycles without
    built-in suspension, this is furnished by the legs. Standing up is not necessary on roads with fine
    ripples, just taking the weight off the pelvic bones is adequate. For rougher roads, enough
    clearance must be used so the saddle carries no weight. The reason for this is twofold. Vision will
    become blurred if the saddle is not unloaded, and traction will be compromised if the tires are not
    bearing with uniform force on the road while rolling over bumps. Ideally the tires should bear on
    the road at constant load. Besides, if the road has whoop-de-doos, the seated rider will get
    launched from the saddle and possibly crash.

    Lean the Bicycle, the Rider, or Both

    Some riders believe that sticking the knee out or leaning the body away from the bicycle, improves
    cornering. Sticking out a knee is the same thing that riders without cleats do when they stick out a
    foot in dirt track motorcycle fashion. On paved roads this is a useless but reassuring gesture that,
    on uneven roads, even degrades control. Any body weight that is not centered over the bicycle
    (leaning the bike or sticking out a knee) puts a side load on the bicycle, and side loads cause
    steering motions over uneven road. Getting weight off the saddle is also made more difficult by such
    maneuvers.

    To verify this, coast down a straight but rough road, weight on one pedal with the bike slanted, and
    note how the bike follows an erratic line. In contrast, if you ride centered on the bike you can
    ride no-hands perfectly straight over the same road. While leaning off the bike, trail of the front
    wheel causes steering on rough roads.

    Outside Pedal Down

    It is often said that putting the outside pedal down in a curve improves cornering. Although most
    experienced riders do this, it is not because it has anything to do with traction. The reason is
    that it enables the rider to unload the saddle while standing with little effort on a locked knee,
    cushioning his weight on his ankle. This can only be done on the outside pedal because the inside
    pedal would hit the road. However, standing on one extended leg does not work on rougher roads,
    because the ankle cannot absorb large road bumps nor raise the rider high enough from the saddle to
    avoid getting bounced. Rough roads require rising high enough from the saddle to avoid hard contact
    while the legs supply shock absorbing knee action, with pedals and cranks horizontal.

    Body Contortions

    Most of the "body English" riders display is gratuitous gesturing, much like the motorcyclists who
    stick their butt out in curves while their bikes never get down to 45 degrees (the angle below which
    hiking out becomes necessary to keep hardware from dragging on the road). In fact, in a series of
    tight ess bends, there's no time to do any of this. It's done by supporting weight on the
    (horizontally positioned) pedals, and unless the road is rough, with a light load on the saddle. On
    rough roads, the cheeks of the saddle, (the ones that went away with the Flite like saddles) are
    used to hold the bicycle stably between the legs while not sitting.

    The path through a curve is not symmetrical for a bicycle, because it can slow down much faster than
    it can regain speed. Thus the trajectory is naturally asymmetric. Brakes are generally used to the
    apex (that is usually not the middle) of the curve, where pedaling at that lean angle is not
    possible, nor does pedaling accelerate as fast as braking decelerates.

    Hairpin Turns

    Although the railroad term switchback arises from early mountain railroading where at the end of a
    traverse, a switch is turned to back up the next traverse, after which another switch is turned to
    head up the next, on roads these are hairpin turns. In such turns trajectory asymmetry is most
    conspicuous, because braking can be hard enough to raise the rear wheel when entering but one cannot
    exit with such acceleration. For this reason, riders often find themselves with extra road on the
    exit of such turns, having slowed down too much.

    Vision

    Where to direct vision is critical for fast cornering. Central vision should be focused on the
    pavement where the tire will track, while allowing peripheral vision, with its low resolution and
    good sensitivity to motion, to detect obstacles and possible oncoming traffic. Peripheral vision
    monitors surroundings anyway, so the presence of a car in that "backdrop" does not require
    additional consideration other than its path.

    If central vision is directed at the place where an oncoming vehicle might appear, its appearance
    presents a new problem of confrontation, stopping image processing of the road surface for
    substantial time. Because the color or model of car is irrelevant, this job can be left to
    peripheral vision in high speed primitive processing, while concentrating on pavement surface and
    composition.

    When following another bicycle or a car downhill, the same technique is even more important, because
    by focusing on the leading vehicle, pavement and road alignment information is being obscured giving
    a tendency to mentally become a passenger of that vehicle. Always look ahead of the vehicle,
    observing it only peripherally.

    Riders often prefer to keep their head upright in curves, although leaning the head with the bicycle
    and body is more natural to the motion. Pilots who roll their aircraft do not attempt to keep their
    head level during the maneuver, or in curves, for that matter.

    The Line

    Picking the broadest curve through a corner may be obvious by the time the preceding skills are
    mastered, but that may not be the best line, either for safety or because the road surface is poor.
    Sometimes hitting a bump or a "Bott's dot" is better than altering the line, especially at high
    speed. Tires should be large enough to absorb the entire height of a lane marker without pinching
    the tube. This means that a minimum of a 25mm actual cross section tire is advisable. At times, the
    crown of the road is sufficient to make broadening the curve, by taking the curve wide,
    counterproductive because the crown on the far side gives a restricted lean angle.

    Mental Speed

    Mental speed is demanded by all of these. However, being quick does not guarantee success, because
    judgment is even more important. To not be daring but rather to ride with a margin that leaves a
    feeling of comfort rather than high risk, is more important. Just the same, do not be blinded by the
    age old presumption that everyone who rides faster than I is crazy. "He descends like a madman!" is
    one of the most common descriptions of fast descenders. The comment generally means that the speaker
    is slower.

    Braking Heat on Steep Descents

    Although tandems with their higher weight to wind drag ratio have this problem more often, steep
    mountain roads, especially ones with poor or no pavement require so much braking that single
    bicycles blow off tires from overheating. For tubulars the problem is not so much over pressure than
    rim glue melting as all pressure sensitive glues do with heating. As glue softens, tires slip on the
    hot rim and pile up on the valve stem. This is the usual indicator that tubular tire wheels are too
    hot. The next is that the tire arches off the rim in the area just before the stem.

    This is a serious problem both for tubulars and clinchers because most clincher tires, given enough
    time on a hot rim will blow off if inflated to recommended pressure. Pressure that gives good
    rolling performance (hard) while tubulars roll off from lack of adhesion to the rim. The faster the
    travel, the more descending power goes into wind drag and the better the rims are cooled. Going
    slowly does not help, unless speed is reduced below walking pace.

    On steep descents, where rims stay too hot to touch for more than a minute, reducing tire
    inflation pressure is a sure remedy. However, tires should be re-inflated once the rims cool to
    normal. The blow-off pressure is the same for small and large tires on the same rim, it being
    dependent only on the opening of the rim width. Also, tires with a smaller air volume become hot
    faster than larger ones.

    There is no way of descending continuously and steeply without reducing inflation pressure, unless
    there is an insulator between the tube and rim of a clincher. Insulating rim strips are no longer
    offered because they were an artifact of dirt roads that often required riders to descend so slowly
    that all potential energy went into the brakes and almost none into wind drag. These rim strips were
    cloth tubes filled with kapok, their insulating purpose being unknown to most people when they were
    last offered.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

  7. Chalo Colina said:

    Though I've not actually seen video of it, the crash that took Beloki out of the Tour this year
    (which commands its own thread right now) has been described as a highside.

    Quoted message said:

    I've highsided both pushbikes and motorbikes, and motorbikes are worse.

    That's why he hit so hard and it was from losing traction on a tar stripe, that with the hot weather
    was gooey. It was a classic slippery surface type crash as we see more often in Paris-Roubaix on wet
    cobbles. Motos just throw the rider farther and with greater speed.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

  8. Quoted message said:

    Drifting a Road Bicycle on Pavement

    Riders have claimed they can slide a bicycle on dry pavement in curves to achieve greater
    cornering speed, as in drifting through a turn. A drift, in contrast to a slide, means that both
    wheels slip, which is even more difficult.

    This is inconsistent with the use of the term drift with other types of tyred vehicles. The
    difference between a drift and a slide is that a slide is an actual loss of adhesion with the road
    surface, whereas a drift is an effect caused by a difference between the expected direction of
    rolling of a wheel and the actual direction, caused by tyre deformation around the contact patch of
    the tyre. I would not expect the effect to be pronounced on a bicycle, as with such small tyres, the
    slip angle would never get very large.

    On a motorcycle, the drift would be controlled with the throttle. The larger the throttle input, the
    less weight there is on the front tyre, and the more likely it is to run wide through understeer.
    The control is achieved by balancing the drift at the rear against the understeer at the front, such
    that the vehicle still corners while the wheels are in fact pointed straight ahead and parallel wrt
    the chassis of the vehicle. Because the attitude of the vehichle is controlled by the accelerator,
    the vehicle in this condition can actually be steered around the remainder of the corner purely
    using throttle input. There is not enough power available from the riders legs to do the sustained
    and controlled form of this kind of manoeuvre on a bicycle. With tyres which can sustain a large
    slip angle (possibly very large diameter thin sidewall tyres at low pressure) it may be possible to
    achieve the drift effect and try to control it by use of steering input. I would still distinguish
    this from a slide, though, by the above traction criteria.

    --
    Jim Price

    jimprice.dsl.pipex.comjimprice.dsl.pipex.com

    Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

  9. Jim Price said:
    Quoted message said:

    Drifting a Road Bicycle on Pavement

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Riders have claimed they can slide a bicycle on dry pavement in curves to achieve greater
    cornering speed, as in drifting through a turn. A drift, in contrast to a slide, means that both
    wheels slip, which is even more difficult.

    Quoted message said:

    This is inconsistent with the use of the term drift with other types of tyred vehicles. The
    difference between a drift and a slide is that a slide is an actual loss of adhesion with the road
    surface, whereas a drift is an effect caused by a difference between the expected direction of
    rolling of a wheel and the actual direction, caused by tyre deformation around the contact patch
    of the tyre. I would not expect the effect to be pronounced on a bicycle, as with such small
    tyres, the slip angle would never get very large.

    These terms have been in the use as I employed them in the FAQ for a long time in flat track racing
    and road racing, especially in cars where the term "drift" conveys the motion vividly. Flat dirt
    track cars and motorcycles use the slide both entering and leaving turns while road in racing
    (pavement) cars and motorcycles generally drift on high speed turns while accelerating although cars
    can do this while decelerating into turns. In either case, the drift involves side slip by both
    front and rear wheels while the slide is the rear-end out, cross-up commonly referred to as
    "power-slide".

    That these terms my be misused is not ruled out when you consider the terms rake, offset and trail
    on motorcycles and bicycles. Bikies have their own terms regardless of how others use them.

    Quoted message said:

    On a motorcycle, the drift would be controlled with the throttle. The larger the throttle input,
    the less weight there is on the front tyre, and the more likely it is to run wide through
    understeer. The control is achieved by balancing the drift at the rear against the understeer at
    the front, such that the vehicle still corners while the wheels are in fact pointed straight ahead
    and parallel wrt the chassis of the vehicle. Because the attitude of the vehichle is controlled by
    the accelerator, the vehicle in this condition can actually be steered around the remainder of the
    corner purely using throttle input. There is not enough power available from the riders legs to do
    the sustained and controlled form of this kind of manoeuvre on a bicycle. With tyres which can
    sustain a large slip angle (possibly very large diameter thin sidewall tyres at low pressure) it
    may be possible to achieve the drift effect and try to control it by use of steering input. I
    would still distinguish this from a slide, though, by the above traction criteria.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

  10. ah yes: that's one way to solve the question. drive a bald tired whatever but several extensively
    framewheel tire combos on a geased surface or put snow tires with studs on all two or four's or 18
    if available. but yagotta work up, gently whatever your relative ground speed(as opposed to ur mitty
    speed) to the experimental level in the first paragraph. experience it. develop awareness of what
    your doing. hey, the dead are buried just outside the wall, dude. and some can't get there. they're
    not fast enough to reach a conclusion. they think they're fast enough and that's ok 'cause it saves
    the ins. burial expenses we all share when budman meets live axle and wooden wheels.

  11. one question? front grip minus turning friction minus brake friction gives us X grip. but the front
    does go in the "right direction" more or less whereas the rear has no differential-the rear gets
    dragged along. What does "drag along" mean in terms of grip and brake balance?

  12. Ray Heindl may have said:


    Quoted message said:

    It's an important discussion, I don't mean to be flippant. But I find there is more to worry
    about than skidding with the front. If, for example, a stone large enough to lift the wheel off
    the ground is hit, the front wheel will stop. When it hits the ground again, an end over is a
    given. So on turns on steep grades coming out of hills like in Malibu where rocks are prevalent,
    I am very reluctant to use the front brake.

    Why does the front wheel stopping cause an endo? I would think that once it hits the ground again,
    it will either skid or start to rotate again, depending on the amount of traction available. Is it
    because the coefficient of friction between the brake and the wheel is higher once the wheel stops
    rotating?

    Yes. It requires more rotational force to break the grip of pads that are in contact with a
    motionless wheel; this is a well-known principle in physics. The gradient can be remarkable.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
    don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

  13. anonymous snipes surreptitiously:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If, for example, a stone large enough to lift the wheel off the ground is hit, the front wheel
    will stop. When it hits the ground again, an end over is a given. So on turns on steep grades
    coming out of hills like in Malibu where rocks are prevalent, I am very reluctant to use the
    front brake.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why does the front wheel stopping cause an endo? I would think that once it hits the ground again,
    it will either skid or start to rotate again, depending on the amount of traction available. Is it
    because the coefficient of friction between the brake and the wheel is higher once the wheel stops
    rotating?

    Quoted message said:

    Yes. It requires more rotational force to break the grip of pads that are in contact with a
    motionless wheel; this is a well-known principle in physics. The gradient can be remarkable.

    I don't know where you get these mechanical models on which these theoretical results are based but
    they are not true. One can easily stop the front wheel on s spot of gravel and without letting up on
    the brake continue a descent with the wheel again rotation when solid pavement is reached. This
    assumes the length of the skid is not long and not at a strong lean angle. This is not difficult for
    a ride who knows how to descend.

    The reference to static friction being higher is commonly called stiction but it does not have
    significant effect on bicycle braking. Riding over a wet tar stripe or a bit of ice is a more common
    form of a wheel stopping but it isn't even slightly as treacherous as it is made out to be by the
    worry warts.

    I don't see why writers to these forums take pleasure in creating horror scenarios supported by
    pseudo-science. They seem to themselves be inept enough that they crash and and find pleasure in
    transferring their pain and fear to others so they won't dare have it any better than they.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

  14. anonymous snipes surreptitiously:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If, for example, a stone large enough to lift the wheel off the ground is hit, the front wheel
    will stop. When it hits the ground again, an end over is a given. So on turns on steep grades
    coming out of hills like in Malibu where rocks are prevalent, I am very reluctant to use the
    front brake.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why does the front wheel stopping cause an endo? I would think that once it hits the ground again,
    it will either skid or start to rotate again, depending on the amount of traction available. Is it
    because the coefficient of friction between the brake and the wheel is higher once the wheel stops
    rotating?

    Quoted message said:

    Yes. It requires more rotational force to break the grip of pads that are in contact with a
    motionless wheel; this is a well-known principle in physics. The gradient can be remarkable.

    I don't know where you get these mechanical models on which these theoretical results are based but
    they are not true. One can easily stop the front wheel on a spot of gravel, and without letting up
    on the brake, continue a descent with the wheel again rotating when solid pavement is reached. This
    assumes the length of the skid is not long and not at a strong lean angle. This is not difficult for
    a rider who knows how to descend.

    The reference to static friction being higher is commonly called stiction but it does not have
    significant effect on bicycle braking. Riding over a wet tar stripe or a bit of ice is a more common
    form of a wheel stopping but it isn't even slightly as treacherous as it is made out to be by the
    worry warts.

    I don't see why writers to these forums take pleasure in creating horror scenarios supported by
    pseudo-science. They seem to themselves be inept enough that they crash and and find pleasure in
    transferring their pain and fear to others so they won't dare have it any better than they.

    Jobst Brandt [email hidden] Palo Alto CA

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