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brake failure

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Cycling Equipment
Published
18 May 2008
Last activity
4 June 2008
Original author
Marian
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  1. In article <[email hidden]>,

    dabac said:
    Quoted message said:

    .. The sponge in
    brakes is elastic, and the most elastic elements are bending elements
    and brake pads. The caliper is a bending element and the pads are
    elastomers and have toe-in.
    Jobst Brandt

    But for the situation I encountered it doesn't matter which parts are
    compressing and which parts that are bending, as long as I only change
    one at a time. And by ONLY changing the brake wire I got better
    performance.
    With wire A I couldn't get both rim clearance and wheel lock before
    lever bottoming out, but with wire B I could.
    So either there was a difference in brake wire characteristics, or the
    other parts of the system managed a truly marvellous amount of bedding
    in from one ride to the next.

    If you replaced the cable you reinstalled the cable runs.
    Just sayin'.

    --
    Michael Press

  2. "Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:


    But for the situation I encountered it doesn't matter which parts are
    compressing and which parts that are bending, as long as I only change
    one at a time. And by ONLY changing the brake wire I got better
    performance.
    With wire A I couldn't get both rim clearance and wheel lock before
    lever bottoming out, but with wire B I could.
    So either there was a difference in brake wire characteristics, or the
    other parts of the system managed a truly marvellous amount of bedding
    in from one ride to the next.

    If you replaced the cable you reinstalled the cable runs.
    Just sayin'.

    I agree. I was never able to get the centerpull brakes to work on older
    European bikes until I started replacing the old outer cables with new ones.
    Of course at the same time I'd replace the galvanized steel inner cables
    with stainless cables that (theoretically) have about the same elasticity.

    If you did this correctly the brakes would be absolutely solid even though
    those old centerpull brakes had the reputation of being very stretchy.

  3. "Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    dabac said:
    Quoted message said:

    .. The sponge in
    brakes is elastic, and the most elastic elements are bending elements
    and brake pads. The caliper is a bending element and the pads are
    elastomers and have toe-in.
    Jobst Brandt

    But for the situation I encountered it doesn't matter which parts are
    compressing and which parts that are bending, as long as I only change
    one at a time. And by ONLY changing the brake wire I got better
    performance.
    With wire A I couldn't get both rim clearance and wheel lock before
    lever bottoming out, but with wire B I could.
    So either there was a difference in brake wire characteristics, or the
    other parts of the system managed a truly marvellous amount of bedding
    in from one ride to the next.

    If you replaced the cable you reinstalled the cable runs.
    Just sayin'.

    --
    Michael Press

    To be more definitive, the first test should have been to install another,
    new, wire A and observe the behavior. If it was different from the first
    wire A, that difference was either because the second wire A was new, or
    because of variation in the installation. Only if there was no difference
    between the two wire A tests would the results of the wire B test be valid.
    If there was a difference in the two wire A tests, you'd need to try another
    new wire A to sort out if the difference was because of installation
    variation or because of new VS old wire A.
    Just sayin' with more words.
    Kerry

  4. someone said:
    Quoted message said:

    ... The sponge in brakes is elastic, and the most elastic elements
    are bending elements and brake pads. The caliper is a bending
    element and the pads are elastomers and have toe-in. Jobst Brandt

    Quoted message said:

    But for the situation I encountered it doesn't matter which parts are
    compressing and which parts that are bending, as long as I only change
    one at a time. And by ONLY changing the brake wire I got better
    performance.

    You say that as though there are intangible properties to brake cables
    even though the reason for brake housing compression have been
    explained. If you bend a steel coil (standard) brake cable housing
    past its minimum radius, its coils will no linger be close packed when
    it springs back about its central axis. This constitutes a coil
    spring, used as cable housing. This effect is dramatic and irreparable
    except to use a new housing. Cables do not stretch and their individual
    strands do not break without human intervention with a file or cutter.

    Quoted message said:

    With wire A I couldn't get both rim clearance and wheel lock before
    lever bottoming out, but with wire B I could.

    As you may have discerned over the years of reading wreck.bike, not
    all bicyclists are good at assessing mechanical failures or degraded
    function.

    Quoted message said:

    So either there was a difference in brake wire characteristics, or
    the other parts of the system managed a truly marvelous amount of
    bedding in from one ride to the next.

    That may be logically so, but it does not isolate the cause of the
    spongy brake. Considering that Shimano doesn't seem to be aware of
    flaw in Octalink, that brake performance is degraded by inconspicuous
    features should not be obscure.

    Even brake fade remains a mystery to many in the automotive business:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fade#Fade_in_drum_brakes

    This article raised all sorts of denials and counter attack, just like
    those on wreck.bike.

    Jobst Brandt

  5. Quoted message said:
    someone said:
    Quoted message said:

    ... The sponge in brakes is elastic, and the most elastic elements
    are bending elements and brake pads. The caliper is a bending
    element and the pads are elastomers and have toe-in. Jobst Brandt

    Quoted message said:

    But for the situation I encountered it doesn't matter which parts are
    compressing and which parts that are bending, as long as I only change
    one at a time. And by ONLY changing the brake wire I got better
    performance.

    You say that as though there are intangible properties to brake cables
    even though the reason for brake housing compression have been
    explained. If you bend a steel coil (standard) brake cable housing
    past its minimum radius, its coils will no linger be close packed when
    it springs back about its central axis. This constitutes a coil
    spring, used as cable housing. This effect is dramatic and irreparable
    except to use a new housing. Cables do not stretch and their individual
    strands do not break without human intervention with a file or cutter.

    that's not true. brake wire running through a tight curve will fatigue.
    it tends to fatigue at the end nipple and the caliper clamp too. or
    perhaps the lack of "human intervention" you had in mind was that of not
    using them!

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    With wire A I couldn't get both rim clearance and wheel lock before
    lever bottoming out, but with wire B I could.

    As you may have discerned over the years of reading wreck.bike, not
    all bicyclists are good at assessing mechanical failures or degraded
    function.

    and some "engineers" have no ability to assess fatigue!

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    So either there was a difference in brake wire characteristics, or
    the other parts of the system managed a truly marvelous amount of
    bedding in from one ride to the next.

    That may be logically so, but it does not isolate the cause of the
    spongy brake. Considering that Shimano doesn't seem to be aware of
    flaw in Octalink, that brake performance is degraded by inconspicuous
    features should not be obscure.

    er, for there to be a "flaw" in octalink, two things need to happen:

    1. the observer needs to actually bother to study, and understand, all
    the design details.

    2. that "flaw" needs to actually manifest itself!

    since neither of these two conditions have been met, you can't declare
    there to be a flaw!

    Quoted message said:


    Even brake fade remains a mystery to many in the automotive business:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fade#Fade_in_drum_brakes

    This article raised all sorts of denials and counter attack, just like
    those on wreck.bike.

    jobst, anyone pointing out your mistakes is not "attacking" you, they're
    simply saying that you don't know what you're talking about. when you
    mock and attempt to deride them, and they respond in kind - /that/ is
    attack. you are 100% responsible for the seeds you sow.

  6. "jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    jobst, anyone pointing out your mistakes is not "attacking" you, they're
    simply saying that you don't know what you're talking about. when you
    mock and attempt to deride them, and they respond in kind - /that/ is
    attack. you are 100% responsible for the seeds you sow.

    I'm certain that everyone is respectful of the opinions of someone named
    after a lower class brand of whiskey.

  7. Tom Kunich said:

    "jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    jobst, anyone pointing out your mistakes is not "attacking" you,
    they're simply saying that you don't know what you're talking about.
    when you mock and attempt to deride them, and they respond in kind -
    /that/ is attack. you are 100% responsible for the seeds you sow.

    I'm certain that everyone is respectful of the opinions of someone named
    after a lower class brand of whiskey.

    like all of your posts, that was insightful, useful and archive-worthy.
    thank you /so/ much for expanding all our horizons.

  8. In article <[email hidden]>,

    dabac said:
    Quoted message said:

    .. The sponge in brakes is elastic, and the most elastic elements
    are bending elements and brake pads. The caliper is a bending
    element and the pads are elastomers and have toe-in. Jobst Brandt

    But for the situation I encountered it doesn't matter which parts are
    compressing and which parts that are bending, as long as I only
    change one at a time. And by ONLY changing the brake wire I got
    better performance. With wire A I couldn't get both rim clearance and
    wheel lock before lever bottoming out, but with wire B I could. So
    either there was a difference in brake wire characteristics, or the
    other parts of the system managed a truly marvellous amount of
    bedding in from one ride to the next.

    Or something else changed when you changed the brake cable, like the
    clearance between the pads and the rim.

  9. "Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Or something else changed when you changed the brake cable, like the
    clearance between the pads and the rim.

    Tim, by now you ought to know that he will deny that completely. He is
    convinced that he could take the entire system apart and reassemble it
    precisely as it was before.

  10. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

    "Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Or something else changed when you changed the brake cable, like
    the clearance between the pads and the rim.

    Tim, by now you ought to know that he will deny that completely. He
    is convinced that he could take the entire system apart and
    reassemble it precisely as it was before.

    Hmmm. Point taken.

  11. Back to mechanics of "cable stretch" and specifically that rear brake
    cables "stretch" more than front cables. The greater"sponge" one may
    feel when applying rear brakes can arise from rear brake cable housing
    making more bends than the front one, especially with tighter bends of
    under-bar-tape routing. Curved cable housing is the bane of "cable
    stretch" or better, cable housing compression.

    As I mentioned, when a cable housing is bent into a curve that causes
    permanent curvature (yield), when relaxed gaps open between housing
    coils because it now articulates about its central axis rather than
    the inside curve coils. Small as they might be, these gaps compress
    when the cable is activated and cause what appears to be cable
    stretch, while in fact it is housing compression.

    I repeat: Cables do not stretch perceptibly from manual brake
    activation, nor do cable housings compress if they have not been
    stretched so that their coils do not nest without clearance. In other
    words, the steel coils of the housing do not compress elastically or
    plastically from braking. If they did, one could see dents in the
    round coil wire upon dissection. They are not to be found.

    Jobst Brandt

  12. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Back to mechanics of "cable stretch" and specifically that rear brake
    cables "stretch" more than front cables. The greater"sponge" one may
    feel when applying rear brakes can arise from rear brake cable housing
    making more bends than the front one, especially with tighter bends of
    under-bar-tape routing. Curved cable housing is the bane of "cable
    stretch" or better, cable housing compression.

    What is your opinion of that piecemeal cable housing made from aluminum
    components? You quoted an article about it but didn't pass on your opinion
    of that stuff.

  13. Tom Kunich said:
    Quoted message said:

    Back to mechanics of "cable stretch" and specifically that rear
    brake cables "stretch" more than front cables. The greater"sponge"
    one may feel when applying rear brakes can arise from rear brake
    cable housing making more bends than the front one, especially with
    tighter bends of under-bar-tape routing. Curved cable housing is
    the bane of "cable stretch" or better, cable housing compression.

    Quoted message said:

    What is your opinion of that piecemeal cable housing made from
    aluminum components? You quoted an article about it but didn't pass
    on your opinion of that stuff.

    It shows that someone recognized the problem and came up with a
    solution. I haven't had one of these in hand, so I don't know how
    elegantly it makes curves. It may have a wear problem because its
    straight elements are much longer than coils of a steel coiled
    housing. It solves the compression problem but seems to miss the
    requirement of a continuous curve to support the active cable. Bowden
    Cables have fared well for more than 100 years. I see no future for
    this invention.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowden_cable

    Jobst Brandt

  14. Quoted message said:

    Back to mechanics of "cable stretch" and specifically that rear brake
    cables "stretch" more than front cables. The greater"sponge" one may
    feel when applying rear brakes can arise from rear brake cable housing
    making more bends than the front one, especially with tighter bends of
    under-bar-tape routing. Curved cable housing is the bane of "cable
    stretch" or better, cable housing compression.

    As I mentioned, when a cable housing is bent into a curve that causes
    permanent curvature (yield), when relaxed gaps open between housing
    coils because it now articulates about its central axis rather than
    the inside curve coils. Small as they might be, these gaps compress
    when the cable is activated and cause what appears to be cable
    stretch, while in fact it is housing compression.

    I repeat: Cables do not stretch perceptibly from manual brake
    activation,

    jobst, you're being, at best, imprecise, at worst, deliberately confusing.

    when you refer to "The greater"sponge" one may feel when applying rear
    brakes", that is *elastic* deformation. it is perceptible and
    absolutely /does/ occur from manual activation. the "stretch" which you
    [might] correctly be denying is plastic deformation - entirely not the
    same thing.

    Quoted message said:

    nor do cable housings compress if they have not been
    stretched so that their coils do not nest without clearance. In other
    words, the steel coils of the housing do not compress elastically or
    plastically from braking.

    no jobst, see above. the whole system deforms elastically, wire,
    housing, levers, calipers, the lot. none of it deforms plastically of
    course, but you don't specify when you use stupidly imprecise language
    like "stretch" which could mean either.

    Quoted message said:

    If they did, one could see dents in the
    round coil wire upon dissection. They are not to be found.

    the only possible explanation for such a statement is that you're
    confused about the distinction between elastic and plastic deformation
    regimes.

  15. Quoted message said:
    Tom Kunich said:
    Quoted message said:

    Back to mechanics of "cable stretch" and specifically that rear
    brake cables "stretch" more than front cables. The greater"sponge"
    one may feel when applying rear brakes can arise from rear brake
    cable housing making more bends than the front one, especially with
    tighter bends of under-bar-tape routing. Curved cable housing is
    the bane of "cable stretch" or better, cable housing compression.

    Quoted message said:

    What is your opinion of that piecemeal cable housing made from
    aluminum components? You quoted an article about it but didn't pass
    on your opinion of that stuff.

    It shows that someone recognized the problem and came up with a
    solution. I haven't had one of these in hand, so I don't know how
    elegantly it makes curves. It may have a wear problem because its
    straight elements are much longer than coils of a steel coiled
    housing. It solves the compression problem but seems to miss the
    requirement of a continuous curve to support the active cable.

    rubbish. it doesn't need to be a "continuous curve' any more than it's
    impossible to run brake wire between two stops on a top tube. it simply
    needs to resist compression. end of story.

    Quoted message said:

    Bowden
    Cables have fared well for more than 100 years. I see no future for
    this invention.

    so you've never used it, but you have an opinion. what an expert!

    Quoted message said:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowden_cable

    avoidance of the essential fact. see above.

  16. Just a back of the envelope calculation - I'm no materials engineer.
    Taking the modulus of elasticity from Wikipedia for steel and rubber
    (200 and .1 to .01) and my cantilever brake pads ~ 12x60mm, 10mm deep,
    x 2; and cable ~ 2x2mm, about a meter long... gives a ratio of
    somewhere between 2 and 20 for the stretch of the cable versus the
    squish of the pads... I.e. more of the distortion is from the cable
    than the pads. I suspect a good deal more from compression of the
    housing (the vinyl part) and bending of the stops.

    JG

  17. JG said:

    Just a back of the envelope calculation - I'm no materials engineer.
    Taking the modulus of elasticity from Wikipedia for steel and rubber
    (200 and .1 to .01) and my cantilever brake pads ~ 12x60mm, 10mm deep,
    x 2; and cable ~ 2x2mm, about a meter long... gives a ratio of
    somewhere between 2 and 20 for the stretch of the cable versus the
    squish of the pads... I.e. more of the distortion is from the cable
    than the pads. I suspect a good deal more from compression of the
    housing (the vinyl part) and bending of the stops.

    JG

    damn dude, don't do that - you'll scare the excrement out of the
    natives. all those numbers and crazy-talk stuff. just suck up the
    conjecture and underinformed speculation will you fer jobst's sake?

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