Br rule change

"Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mmmm, been a while since I posted here and a quick perusal of the summer's
posts don't seem to have made mention of this so....

FINA SW 7.4 now concludes with:

"...A single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick is
permitted while wholly submerged. Following which, all movements of the
legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without
alternating movement."

Personally I wonder about some of the rather ambiguous grammar in the
second sentence. It would appear, to me, that every length can contain a
dolphin kick _anywhere_ so long as the body is submerged. A little more
pondering and a, rather unintended, consequence presents its self: the
optimum place to put said dolphin kick would seem to be, at least on the
last length, in the touch at the end of the length and nowhere near the
breakout at all.

Thoughts?

--Mike

"After the start and after each turn, a single downward etc"

why did you leave that out of your quotation?

i doubt any official would uphold an interpretation such as you put forward.

diablo said:

"Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mmmm, been a while since I posted here and a quick perusal of the summer's
posts don't seem to have made mention of this so....

FINA SW 7.4 now concludes with:

"...A single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick is
permitted while wholly submerged. Following which, all movements of the
legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without
alternating movement."

Personally I wonder about some of the rather ambiguous grammar in the
second sentence. It would appear, to me, that every length can contain a
dolphin kick _anywhere_ so long as the body is submerged. A little more
pondering and a, rather unintended, consequence presents its self: the
optimum place to put said dolphin kick would seem to be, at least on the
last length, in the touch at the end of the length and nowhere near the
breakout at all.

Thoughts?

--Mike

"After the start and after each turn, a single downward etc"

why did you leave that out of your quotation?

i doubt any official would uphold an interpretation such as you put forward.

Plus I think getting the body is "wholly submerged" anywhere but off
the wall would reduce your speed by more than you would get back from
a single dolphin kick.

diablo said:

"Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mmmm, been a while since I posted here and a quick perusal of the summer's
posts don't seem to have made mention of this so....

FINA SW 7.4 now concludes with:

"...A single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick is
permitted while wholly submerged. Following which, all movements of the
legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without
alternating movement."

Personally I wonder about some of the rather ambiguous grammar in the
second sentence. It would appear, to me, that every length can contain a
dolphin kick _anywhere_ so long as the body is submerged. A little more
pondering and a, rather unintended, consequence presents its self: the
optimum place to put said dolphin kick would seem to be, at least on the
last length, in the touch at the end of the length and nowhere near the
breakout at all.

Thoughts?

--Mike

"After the start and after each turn, a single downward etc"

why did you leave that out of your quotation?

i doubt any official would uphold an interpretation such as you put forward.

Plus I think getting the body is "wholly submerged" anywhere but off
the wall would reduce your speed by more than you would get back from
a single dolphin kick.

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Plus I think getting the body is "wholly submerged" anywhere but off
the wall would reduce your speed by more than you would get back from
a single dolphin kick.

No.

Breaststrokers have been getting the body wholly submerged every stroke for
many years now. They do it because it _increases_ their speed.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:13:35 +0000, diablo wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

"After the start and after each turn, a single downward etc"

why did you leave that out of your quotation?

i doubt any official would uphold an interpretation such as you put forward.

After is after. Strictly speaking the rule as stated gives one downbeat.
The sentence you refer too simply, as I see it, limits the frequency not
the location. So, aside from any unexpressed intentions (or the inherent
difficulty in keeping your heels 'wet'😉, any reason not to use that kick
on a touch that got timed a little long?

--Mike

In article <[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca>,

jtaylor said:

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Plus I think getting the body is "wholly submerged" anywhere but off
the wall would reduce your speed by more than you would get back from
a single dolphin kick.

No.

Breaststrokers have been getting the body wholly submerged every stroke for
many years now. They do it because it _increases_ their speed.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing, j, but why should this
time be any different? It has been ten years since I was a
breaststroker, but as I remember the rules, a dolphin kick on the end of
a breaststroke kick was illegal. I was disqualified for it more than
once, although my dolphin kick is no better than my flutter kick, which
is to say, nearly worthless. I admit I assumed it remains illegal to
tack a dolphin kick on the end of the breaststroke kick.

That means the only time you can take the allowed dolphin kick is during
or after the pull, and, indeed, the part of the rule the OP did quote
does say dolphin kick followed by breaststroke kick, which implies
during or after the pull. And when I am swimming breaststroke, I'm
coming up on the pull, so I would have to force my body down on the pull
so that it is wholly underwater to take the dolphin kick, which can't
break the surface. That's what I meant by getting the body wholly
submerged. I know breaststrokers go underwater, but they don't do it
when they can take the dolphin kick, do they?

I think that will screw up the whole feng shui of the stroke, because my
legs will be straight when they should be ready to snap back. Have I
missed something? Where were you planning to take the dolphin kick if
not after the pull and before the kick?

"Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:13:35 +0000, diablo wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

"After the start and after each turn, a single downward etc"

why did you leave that out of your quotation?

i doubt any official would uphold an interpretation such as you put
forward.

After is after. Strictly speaking the rule as stated gives one downbeat.
The sentence you refer too simply, as I see it, limits the frequency not
the location. So, aside from any unexpressed intentions (or the inherent
difficulty in keeping your heels 'wet'😉, any reason not to use that kick
on a touch that got timed a little long?

--Mike

Referee's decision is final?

"Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:13:35 +0000, diablo wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

"After the start and after each turn, a single downward etc"

why did you leave that out of your quotation?

i doubt any official would uphold an interpretation such as you put
forward.

After is after. Strictly speaking the rule as stated gives one downbeat.
The sentence you refer too simply, as I see it, limits the frequency not
the location. So, aside from any unexpressed intentions (or the inherent
difficulty in keeping your heels 'wet'😉, any reason not to use that kick
on a touch that got timed a little long?

--Mike

Referee's decision is final?

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:09:08 +0200, Martin Smith wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I think that will screw up the whole feng shui of the stroke, because my
legs will be straight when they should be ready to snap back. Have I
missed something? Where were you planning to take the dolphin kick if
not after the pull and before the kick?

On the touch when you don't really need any rhythm to setup the next
stroke. Just time the thing a 1/2 stroke longer, lunge, reach and kick.
This way the timing on the touch can be more flexible and you don't
'waste' it on the breakout where you're already moving pretty fast
(assuming friction varies with the square of V). Besides the whole idea of
the rule is in large part due to the fact that (at least on the start) the
no dolphin rule is comepltely unenforceable anyway. U/W video of a heat of
sub 30 50br's would show that most, if not all, are getting dolphin
kick(s) already. All this poorly worded rule does is specifically allow
the kick, which was happening already, and opens up a couple of possible
interpretations of where that one permissible kick might occur.

Personally, as one who has struggled with some pretty crappy wallpaper,
I'd rather see a simpler rule that does a better job of containing it's
side effects. Something like: "Off the start and turns swimmers shall be
bound be the freestyle rules until the 15m mark or any point at which the
swimmer's body is no longer completely submerged which ever happens
first". That way we loosen the pullout rules, which were hard to police,
offer a small window to innovate without getting overly pedantic and bring
some consistancy to the 15m rule which currently does not effect the
breaststroke.

Clean, simple, easy to police. And never, ever, gonna happen. So why not
push it a bit get your 'free' dolphin kick on the start and toss in
another, prob defensible, kick on the touch?

--Mike

didgerman said:

"Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:13:35 +0000, diablo wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

"After the start and after each turn, a single downward etc"

why did you leave that out of your quotation?

i doubt any official would uphold an interpretation such as you put
forward.

After is after. Strictly speaking the rule as stated gives one downbeat.
The sentence you refer too simply, as I see it, limits the frequency not
the location. So, aside from any unexpressed intentions (or the inherent
difficulty in keeping your heels 'wet'😉, any reason not to use that kick
on a touch that got timed a little long?

--Mike

Referee's decision is final?

I'm tempted to retort "only at piddly meets" though that would be rather,
umm, shrewish. Although, certainly, at national/internation championships
there is a certain political falvour to the appel process the ref is
indeed charged with the final responsibilty. Though any ref, with the
requisite english skill to read the rule, would have to admit that it does
a poor job of nailing down it's intent.

Sometimes this isn't so bad, strokes change, rules change, swimming
changes. I'm sure it took quite some time for the butterfly rules to
stabilize and for interpretations to gel. I myself remember the hoopla
with the backstroke turn. That first year it was hard to get consistant
stroke and turn calls at age group meets. This rule, though, isn't so
grand as to create a new stroke, or as elegant and clean a proposition as
the 'simplified and streamlined' backstroke rule. It's a hack to patch up
some cracks in the breaststroke. Trouble is the mortar is dry and crumbly
and I don't think it's going to take.

Maybe we'll see a rewording of the rule, maybe a more specific
interpretation will ascend to unwritten canon. Maybe my (and why just
mine) interpretation will jockey for support and every meet will begin
with a coaches meeting to determine the rules of the day.

Meh.

--Mike

Mike said:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:09:08 +0200, Martin Smith wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I think that will screw up the whole feng shui of the stroke, because my
legs will be straight when they should be ready to snap back. Have I
missed something? Where were you planning to take the dolphin kick if
not after the pull and before the kick?

On the touch when you don't really need any rhythm to setup the next
stroke. Just time the thing a 1/2 stroke longer, lunge, reach and kick.
This way the timing on the touch can be more flexible and you don't
'waste' it on the breakout where you're already moving pretty fast
(assuming friction varies with the square of V). Besides the whole idea of
the rule is in large part due to the fact that (at least on the start) the
no dolphin rule is comepltely unenforceable anyway. U/W video of a heat of
sub 30 50br's would show that most, if not all, are getting dolphin
kick(s) already. All this poorly worded rule does is specifically allow
the kick, which was happening already, and opens up a couple of possible
interpretations of where that one permissible kick might occur.

ok, at the end of a length, when stroke timing is no longer important.
But you're not underwater then. You have to be completely under water.

Quoted message said:

Personally, as one who has struggled with some pretty crappy wallpaper,
I'd rather see a simpler rule that does a better job of containing it's
side effects. Something like: "Off the start and turns swimmers shall be
bound be the freestyle rules until the 15m mark or any point at which the
swimmer's body is no longer completely submerged which ever happens
first". That way we loosen the pullout rules, which were hard to police,
offer a small window to innovate without getting overly pedantic and bring
some consistancy to the 15m rule which currently does not effect the
breaststroke.

Clean, simple, easy to police. And never, ever, gonna happen. So why not
push it a bit get your 'free' dolphin kick on the start and toss in
another, prob defensible, kick on the touch?

I think the rule is clear the way it is written. I don't think a
dolphin kick would be useful at the end of a length, unless you
misjudged the distance to the wall and you were coasting. But then
you're not underwater.

Mike said:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:09:08 +0200, Martin Smith wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I think that will screw up the whole feng shui of the stroke, because my
legs will be straight when they should be ready to snap back. Have I
missed something? Where were you planning to take the dolphin kick if
not after the pull and before the kick?

On the touch when you don't really need any rhythm to setup the next
stroke. Just time the thing a 1/2 stroke longer, lunge, reach and kick.
This way the timing on the touch can be more flexible and you don't
'waste' it on the breakout where you're already moving pretty fast
(assuming friction varies with the square of V). Besides the whole idea of
the rule is in large part due to the fact that (at least on the start) the
no dolphin rule is comepltely unenforceable anyway. U/W video of a heat of
sub 30 50br's would show that most, if not all, are getting dolphin
kick(s) already. All this poorly worded rule does is specifically allow
the kick, which was happening already, and opens up a couple of possible
interpretations of where that one permissible kick might occur.

ok, at the end of a length, when stroke timing is no longer important.
But you're not underwater then. You have to be completely under water.

Quoted message said:

Personally, as one who has struggled with some pretty crappy wallpaper,
I'd rather see a simpler rule that does a better job of containing it's
side effects. Something like: "Off the start and turns swimmers shall be
bound be the freestyle rules until the 15m mark or any point at which the
swimmer's body is no longer completely submerged which ever happens
first". That way we loosen the pullout rules, which were hard to police,
offer a small window to innovate without getting overly pedantic and bring
some consistancy to the 15m rule which currently does not effect the
breaststroke.

Clean, simple, easy to police. And never, ever, gonna happen. So why not
push it a bit get your 'free' dolphin kick on the start and toss in
another, prob defensible, kick on the touch?

I think the rule is clear the way it is written. I don't think a
dolphin kick would be useful at the end of a length, unless you
misjudged the distance to the wall and you were coasting. But then
you're not underwater.

According to my brother-in-law it is a very new rule change that just
came in this month. Apparently they've also removed the backstroke
start rule that required toes below the curface of the water.

Mike said:

Mmmm, been a while since I posted here and a quick perusal of the summer's
posts don't seem to have made mention of this so....

FINA SW 7.4 now concludes with:

"...A single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick is
permitted while wholly submerged. Following which, all movements of the
legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without
alternating movement."

Personally I wonder about some of the rather ambiguous grammar in the
second sentence. It would appear, to me, that every length can contain a
dolphin kick _anywhere_ so long as the body is submerged. A little more
pondering and a, rather unintended, consequence presents its self: the
optimum place to put said dolphin kick would seem to be, at least on the
last length, in the touch at the end of the length and nowhere near the
breakout at all.

Thoughts?

--Mike

According to my brother-in-law it is a very new rule change that just
came in this month. Apparently they've also removed the backstroke
start rule that required toes below the curface of the water.

Mike said:

Mmmm, been a while since I posted here and a quick perusal of the summer's
posts don't seem to have made mention of this so....

FINA SW 7.4 now concludes with:

"...A single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick is
permitted while wholly submerged. Following which, all movements of the
legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without
alternating movement."

Personally I wonder about some of the rather ambiguous grammar in the
second sentence. It would appear, to me, that every length can contain a
dolphin kick _anywhere_ so long as the body is submerged. A little more
pondering and a, rather unintended, consequence presents its self: the
optimum place to put said dolphin kick would seem to be, at least on the
last length, in the touch at the end of the length and nowhere near the
breakout at all.

Thoughts?

--Mike

Mike said:

Mmmm, been a while since I posted here and a quick perusal of the summer's
posts don't seem to have made mention of this so....

FINA SW 7.4 now concludes with:

"...A single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick is
permitted while wholly submerged. Following which, all movements of the
legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without
alternating movement."

Personally I wonder about some of the rather ambiguous grammar in the
second sentence. It would appear, to me, that every length can contain a
dolphin kick _anywhere_ so long as the body is submerged. A little more
pondering and a, rather unintended, consequence presents its self: the
optimum place to put said dolphin kick would seem to be, at least on the
last length, in the touch at the end of the length and nowhere near the
breakout at all.

Thoughts?

The intent and the interpretation of the rule (by the officials)is that
the single dolphin kick happens after the turn, before the breakout and
the fist stroke.
This rule was changed for Masters swimming too.
If it gets challenged too much, it's likely that they'll do a
housekeeping amendment to the rule, and clarify the language to more
closely describe the intent.

"Colin Priest" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

According to my brother-in-law it is a very new rule change that just
came in this month. Apparently they've also removed the backstroke
start rule that required toes below the curface of the water.

There are four rules changes (this is relatively old news, but it appears
that some in r.s.s. are just finding out about them):

a) in breaststroke, a single dolphin kick is permitted after a start or
turn; it must occur before the first breaststroke kick.

b) on the backstroke start toes are permitted to be above the waterline.
They are still not allowed to bend the toes over any gutter or ledge.

c) in backstroke, while approaching the wall for the turn, kicking while on
the front is no longer grounds for disqualification.

d) in relays, should a swimmer in the second, thrird, or fourth position
leave before the previous swimmer's touch, they can no longer return to the
wall and start their portion again.

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca...

Quoted message said:

"Colin Priest" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

According to my brother-in-law it is a very new rule change that just
came in this month. Apparently they've also removed the backstroke
start rule that required toes below the curface of the water.

There are four rules changes (this is relatively old news, but it appears
that some in r.s.s. are just finding out about them):

a) in breaststroke, a single dolphin kick is permitted after a start or
turn; it must occur before the first breaststroke kick.

b) on the backstroke start toes are permitted to be above the waterline.
They are still not allowed to bend the toes over any gutter or ledge.

c) in backstroke, while approaching the wall for the turn, kicking while
on
the front is no longer grounds for disqualification.

d) in relays, should a swimmer in the second, thrird, or fourth position
leave before the previous swimmer's touch, they can no longer return to
the
wall and start their portion again.

I haven't seen anything from USA Swimming about 'c' or 'd'. Good changes.

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

c) in backstroke, while approaching the wall for the turn, kicking while
on
the front is no longer grounds for disqualification.

d) in relays, should a swimmer in the second, thrird, or fourth position
leave before the previous swimmer's touch, they can no longer return to
the
wall and start their portion again.

I haven't seen anything from USA Swimming about 'c' or 'd'. Good changes.

These are FINA changes. I understand that the IPC has not adopted some/all
of them (yet); it would not surprise me that the US is behind as well.

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca...

Quoted message said:

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

c) in backstroke, while approaching the wall for the turn, kicking
while
on
the front is no longer grounds for disqualification.

d) in relays, should a swimmer in the second, thrird, or fourth
position
leave before the previous swimmer's touch, they can no longer return to
the
wall and start their portion again.

I haven't seen anything from USA Swimming about 'c' or 'd'. Good changes.

These are FINA changes. I understand that the IPC has not adopted
some/all
of them (yet); it would not surprise me that the US is behind as well.

I looked through my archived mail from USAS and they did pass those changes
too. I guess at convention they made a bigger deal out of the first two
because they will relate to interpretation changes.