Bowflex Owners Keep Dogs Imprisoned

"Dally" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.

My friends have a bowflex. It was dusty and the poles weren't connected
to anything. 'Nuff said.

But worse than that, my friends have a bizarre doggy-jail thing going on.
They own two dogs, but keep them penned (inside in small pens) and only
move them on a leash (including in the house). These are not active
people and they mostly stand in the yard for their dogs to pee.

Their two dogs are kept separated as they say they don't play well
together. They've never trained their dogs and they won't come, they jump
on everything, and have no communication skills other than understanding
treats. Their dogs get the best of veterinarian care and they make them
gourmet home-made meals, but they treat the dogs almost exactly the same
way their treat their birds - kept wild in cages as cherished living
statues.

I'm allowed to bring my well-trained yellow Lab with me when I visit. In
past visits we've been required to keep her crated in the basement or our
bedroom so their dogs don't get agitated by the presence of a strange dog.
My dog is NOT allowed to play with their dogs, and must be on a leash in
their house at all times. This time she was allowed to be in a pen in our
common room, which worked great for her. She just lay within sight of us
and was okay in between romps. My friends commented several times how
well-behaved she was, meaning, she didn't start barking uncontrollably
every time someone moved or a door opened, like her dogs do, or dribble
pee on the carpet, like their dogs do.

They live in the woods, near logging trails. I run on their logging
trails with my dog, but they don't. I know their trails better than they
do.

This week-end my friends caught on that I don't have my dog leashed in
their yard when I'm outside romping her. (They don't really get the
concept of romping, as their Lab is never allowed off-leash so never plays
fetch or frisbee, etc.) They were quite severe with me about how my dog
might run off after some animal. They honestly can't believe that my dog
would come if I called her. Come, hell, my dog doesn't want to leave my
side!

This really has me scratching my head. My sister's border collies compete
nationwide in sheep dog trials. My dog's favorite playmate is a seeing
eye dog (with whom we have dog playdates.) My brother-in-law's dog is a
trained Doberman attack dog. Ela is a slouch compared to these
trained-to-perfection dogs. So maybe I just hang out in elite dog crowds,
but does this seem normal to you?

These are really nice, smart, well-meaning people. They think they're
being wonderful to their dogs, and think I'm being abusive to mine by
letting her off-leash, feeding her dry (Cohen-approved) kibble, and
letting her have raw hide bones. They've had dogs longer than me, and
going back 20 years I recall that every one of them was an ill-mannered
lout that would jump on you and stick their nose in your crouch.

This week-end they said they were thinking of getting a border collie
because "they're loyal." Uh oh. Is there something I could do? I model
good dog communication, but they're sure that my dog just happens to be on
extraordinarily good behavior or that maybe she's incredibly passive -
they just don't get the concept that you can train a dog. Is there anyway
to convince entirely sedentary people who expect their dogs to stay in
crates or pens all day, that don't work with them or train them, that that
a border collie might be a bad idea?

Dally

P.S. And while I'm at it, how can I tell them to get rid of the bowflex
and get a power cage instead?

If there is a case that cries out for euthanasia, this is it.

For the dog owners, of course.

Dally said:

Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.

My friends have a bowflex.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But worse than that, my friends have a bizarre doggy-jail thing going
on. They own two dogs, but keep them penned (inside in small pens) and
only move them on a leash (including in the house).

<snip>

Uh, can we get YOU a doggy-jail thing?

Seriously, could you offer to train their dogs?

I can, however, understand the dog pens. A friend had one and locked
his dog up when he was at work. An exgirlfriend has a beagle that
chewed on anything within reach when we penned her in the kitchen, so
that ended the penning-up action. I might have sprung for a cage if it
was my dog.

Quoted message said:

Dally

P.S. And while I'm at it, how can I tell them to get rid of the bowflex
and get a power cage instead?

I thought you said it was an unused bowflex. Do you think they'd use
the power cage? No.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

Dally said:

Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.

My friends have a bowflex. It was dusty and the poles weren't connected
to anything. 'Nuff said.

But worse than that, my friends have a bizarre doggy-jail thing going
on. They own two dogs, but keep them penned (inside in small pens) and
only move them on a leash (including in the house). These are not
active people and they mostly stand in the yard for their dogs to pee.

Their two dogs are kept separated as they say they don't play well
together. They've never trained their dogs and they won't come, they
jump on everything, and have no communication skills other than
understanding treats. Their dogs get the best of veterinarian care and
they make them gourmet home-made meals, but they treat the dogs almost
exactly the same way their treat their birds - kept wild in cages as
cherished living statues.

I'm allowed to bring my well-trained yellow Lab with me when I visit.
In past visits we've been required to keep her crated in the basement or
our bedroom so their dogs don't get agitated by the presence of a
strange dog. My dog is NOT allowed to play with their dogs, and must be
on a leash in their house at all times. This time she was allowed to be
in a pen in our common room, which worked great for her. She just lay
within sight of us and was okay in between romps. My friends commented
several times how well-behaved she was, meaning, she didn't start
barking uncontrollably every time someone moved or a door opened, like
her dogs do, or dribble pee on the carpet, like their dogs do.

They live in the woods, near logging trails. I run on their logging
trails with my dog, but they don't. I know their trails better than
they do.

This week-end my friends caught on that I don't have my dog leashed in
their yard when I'm outside romping her. (They don't really get the
concept of romping, as their Lab is never allowed off-leash so never
plays fetch or frisbee, etc.) They were quite severe with me about how
my dog might run off after some animal. They honestly can't believe
that my dog would come if I called her. Come, hell, my dog doesn't want
to leave my side!

This really has me scratching my head. My sister's border collies
compete nationwide in sheep dog trials. My dog's favorite playmate is a
seeing eye dog (with whom we have dog playdates.) My brother-in-law's
dog is a trained Doberman attack dog. Ela is a slouch compared to these
trained-to-perfection dogs. So maybe I just hang out in elite dog
crowds, but does this seem normal to you?

These are really nice, smart, well-meaning people. They think they're
being wonderful to their dogs, and think I'm being abusive to mine by
letting her off-leash, feeding her dry (Cohen-approved) kibble, and
letting her have raw hide bones. They've had dogs longer than me, and
going back 20 years I recall that every one of them was an ill-mannered
lout that would jump on you and stick their nose in your crouch.

This week-end they said they were thinking of getting a border collie
because "they're loyal." Uh oh. Is there something I could do? I
model good dog communication, but they're sure that my dog just happens
to be on extraordinarily good behavior or that maybe she's incredibly
passive - they just don't get the concept that you can train a dog. Is
there anyway to convince entirely sedentary people who expect their dogs
to stay in crates or pens all day, that don't work with them or train
them, that that a border collie might be a bad idea?

Dally

P.S. And while I'm at it, how can I tell them to get rid of the bowflex
and get a power cage instead?

Do these friends have very strong religious and/or political views?
Just curious.

J M Would-it-kill-you-to-snip-all-but-the-necessary-text?

Quoted message said:

Dally said:

Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.

My friends have a bowflex. It was dusty and the poles weren't connected
to anything. 'Nuff said.

But worse than that, my friends have a bizarre doggy-jail thing going
on. They own two dogs, but keep them penned (inside in small pens) and
only move them on a leash (including in the ho<SNIP!>

Quoted message said:

Do these friends have very strong religious and/or political views?
Just curious.

Would you be surprised to learn there are people with very strong
religious and/or political views who are also excellent pet owners?

Yes.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

JMW said:

Do these friends have very strong religious and/or political views?
Just curious.

They are strongly anti-religious, in the same way Cohen is. They think
that faith is a failure of intelligence or a lack of imagination or
evidence of poor scientific training. (One of them was my lab partner
in physics classes many years ago.)

Their belief in lack of belief is strongly held.

Dally

"Dally" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.

My friends have a bowflex. It was dusty and the poles weren't connected
to anything. 'Nuff said.

But worse than that, my friends have a bizarre doggy-jail thing going on.
They own two dogs, but keep them penned (inside in small pens) and only
move them on a leash (including in the house). These are not active
people and they mostly stand in the yard for their dogs to pee.

Their two dogs are kept separated as they say they don't play well
together. They've never trained their dogs and they won't come, they jump
on everything, and have no communication skills other than understanding
treats. Their dogs get the best of veterinarian care and they make them
gourmet home-made meals, but they treat the dogs almost exactly the same
way their treat their birds - kept wild in cages as cherished living
statues.

I'm allowed to bring my well-trained yellow Lab with me when I visit. In
past visits we've been required to keep her crated in the basement or our
bedroom so their dogs don't get agitated by the presence of a strange dog.
My dog is NOT allowed to play with their dogs, and must be on a leash in
their house at all times. This time she was allowed to be in a pen in our
common room, which worked great for her. She just lay within sight of us
and was okay in between romps. My friends commented several times how
well-behaved she was, meaning, she didn't start barking uncontrollably
every time someone moved or a door opened, like her dogs do, or dribble
pee on the carpet, like their dogs do.

They live in the woods, near logging trails. I run on their logging
trails with my dog, but they don't. I know their trails better than they
do.

This week-end my friends caught on that I don't have my dog leashed in
their yard when I'm outside romping her. (They don't really get the
concept of romping, as their Lab is never allowed off-leash so never plays
fetch or frisbee, etc.) They were quite severe with me about how my dog
might run off after some animal. They honestly can't believe that my dog
would come if I called her. Come, hell, my dog doesn't want to leave my
side!

This really has me scratching my head. My sister's border collies compete
nationwide in sheep dog trials. My dog's favorite playmate is a seeing
eye dog (with whom we have dog playdates.) My brother-in-law's dog is a
trained Doberman attack dog. Ela is a slouch compared to these
trained-to-perfection dogs. So maybe I just hang out in elite dog crowds,
but does this seem normal to you?

These are really nice, smart, well-meaning people. They think they're
being wonderful to their dogs, and think I'm being abusive to mine by
letting her off-leash, feeding her dry (Cohen-approved) kibble, and
letting her have raw hide bones. They've had dogs longer than me, and
going back 20 years I recall that every one of them was an ill-mannered
lout that would jump on you and stick their nose in your crouch.

This week-end they said they were thinking of getting a border collie
because "they're loyal." Uh oh. Is there something I could do? I model
good dog communication, but they're sure that my dog just happens to be on
extraordinarily good behavior or that maybe she's incredibly passive -
they just don't get the concept that you can train a dog. Is there anyway
to convince entirely sedentary people who expect their dogs to stay in
crates or pens all day, that don't work with them or train them, that that
a border collie might be a bad idea?

Dally

P.S. And while I'm at it, how can I tell them to get rid of the bowflex
and get a power cage instead?

That's an awfully long post Dilly. Can you please get to the point as I have
to be somewhere this weekend.

Lee Michaels said:

If there is a case that cries out for euthanasia, this is it.

For the dog owners, of course.

Nah, I'm telling you they aren't evil. Taking care of their dogs is one
of their highest priorities. They think keeping them under lock and key
is protecting them. It sort of makes sense, actually, when you realize
they haven't trained the dogs. External controls replace internal
controls. (They refer often to a dog's natural instincts. I haven't
discussed this with them, but I suspect the lack of training is a
conscious choice on their part. I think they would disdain going to
puppy training classes with all the plebian dog owners.)

In most respects they are at the very height of pet care - they get
their dogs all sorts of holistic treatments, the best diet, the best
supplements, the very best medical care. The dogs aren't overweight.
The terrier doesn't mind being penned, she just jumps up and down as if
she's on a tramoline. Their last terrier lived to be absurdly old.
That's when the penning stuff started, actually, because they wanted the
puppies not to annoy the old dog.

Two years later, the Lab seems a bit brain-damaged, as if he is a Downs
Syndrome Dog or something. He won't "come" or "sit" and jumps on
everything he can get near when he's allowed out of his playpen or
crate. It's just weird how big a blind spot they have about the Lab.
His owners think he's hyperactive and warn that he must be kept under
very strict control because of it - not realizing he's hyper because
he's been under very strict control!

I can almost just call this a difference in parenting styles. It just
shook me up, particularly the part where they look down on me for not
keeping my dog safe because I played with her off-leash in a rural yard
far from cars.

Do other people keep their dogs penned or crated or on a leash at all times?

Dally

David said:

"Dally" <[email hidden]> wrote

and wrote and wrote and wrote...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.

<snip five THOUSAND lines of text about dogs, pens, and a dusty
bowflex machine>

Quoted message said:

That's an awfully long post Dilly. Can you please get to the point
as I have to be somewhere this weekend.

This may seem like another mutual appreciation moment, but what the
hell. David, I'm not an easy laugh, but that had me barking (no pun
intended) with laughter. Thanks for the gut-buster.

And, Wen, you really should give your friends a clue about dog
training. I mean if they can benefit from your experience then cut
them (and, more importantly, THE DOGS) some slack.

Offer to dog sit for them. Get them a gift certificate to a nice local
restaurant and then offer to stay with the mutts while they're
enjoying several hours away from the poor animals. While their
misguided owners are absent, you can let one out of its cage and work
your magic.

Or be direct and just come out and tell your friends what your opinion
is. Really. WTF.

You're part of the problem as it stands now.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

Dally said:

JMW said:

Do these friends have very strong religious and/or political views?
Just curious.

They are strongly anti-religious, in the same way Cohen is. They think
that faith is a failure of intelligence or a lack of imagination or
evidence of poor scientific training. (One of them was my lab partner
in physics classes many years ago.)

Their belief in lack of belief is strongly held.

Fits the profile. What they believe in wasn't important; it's how
adamant their beliefs are.

There's no sense in you trying to tell them anything. They already
think they have the answer, and they can't imagine why you don't treat
your dog the same.

"Curt James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

"Dally" <[email hidden]> wrote

and wrote and wrote and wrote...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.

<snip five THOUSAND lines of text about dogs, pens, and a dusty
bowflex machine>

Quoted message said:

That's an awfully long post Dilly. Can you please get to the point
as I have to be somewhere this weekend.

This may seem like another mutual appreciation moment, but what the
hell. David, I'm not an easy laugh, but that had me barking (no pun
intended) with laughter. Thanks for the gut-buster.

Ha ha! (well that's why I'm a troll enabler)

[.....]

Quoted message said:

You're part of the problem as it stands now.

Exactly. Whether they are friends or not she has a duty to tell them if
they are mistreating their animals.

JMW said:

Dally <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Their belief in lack of belief is strongly held.

Fits the profile.

I got your profile right here. It's one word: defeatist

Quoted message said:

There's no sense in you trying to tell them anything.
They already think they have the answer, and they
can't imagine why you don't treat your dog the same.

And so you'd let the treatment continue?

Yes, fits the profile.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

JMW said:

Dally said:

JMW said:

Do these friends have very strong religious and/or political views?
Just curious.

They are strongly anti-religious, in the same way Cohen is. They think
that faith is a failure of intelligence or a lack of imagination or
evidence of poor scientific training. (One of them was my lab partner
in physics classes many years ago.)

Their belief in lack of belief is strongly held.

Fits the profile. What they believe in wasn't important; it's how
adamant their beliefs are.

There's no sense in you trying to tell them anything. They already
think they have the answer, and they can't imagine why you don't treat
your dog the same.

Hmmm, I guess that makes me the same, too. Not being able to imagine
why they don't treat their dog the same, I mean. It partially shakes me
up so much because I always considered them to be Master Dog Owners.
They are the child-free sort that dote on their dogs. I've watched them
dance attendance on their dogs for years. I just never realized before
how vastly different their relationship is with their dogs than mine is
with my dog.

Meanwhile, at this moment they're probably posting over on
alt.support.child-free about the horrible invasion of children they just
endured. They took off their shoes and waved smelly feet in the air,
one tired child cried on the floor without his mother intervening, they
constantly needed breakfast, lunch, snack, dinner, games, etc etc etc.
I'm sure they're more horrified by me and mine then I was about them and
theirs.

Dally

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Dally said:

Well, I'm back, and there are two traumatic items to note.

My friends have a bowflex. It was dusty and the poles weren't connected
to anything. 'Nuff said.

But worse than that, my friends have a bizarre doggy-jail thing going
on. They own two dogs, but keep them penned (inside in small pens) and
only move them on a leash (including in the house). These are not
active people and they mostly stand in the yard for their dogs to pee.

Their two dogs are kept separated as they say they don't play well
together. They've never trained their dogs and they won't come, they
jump on everything, and have no communication skills other than
understanding treats. Their dogs get the best of veterinarian care and
they make them gourmet home-made meals, but they treat the dogs almost
exactly the same way their treat their birds - kept wild in cages as
cherished living statues.

I'm allowed to bring my well-trained yellow Lab with me when I visit.
In past visits we've been required to keep her crated in the basement or
our bedroom so their dogs don't get agitated by the presence of a
strange dog. My dog is NOT allowed to play with their dogs, and must be
on a leash in their house at all times. This time she was allowed to be
in a pen in our common room, which worked great for her. She just lay
within sight of us and was okay in between romps. My friends commented
several times how well-behaved she was, meaning, she didn't start
barking uncontrollably every time someone moved or a door opened, like
her dogs do, or dribble pee on the carpet, like their dogs do.

They live in the woods, near logging trails. I run on their logging
trails with my dog, but they don't. I know their trails better than
they do.

This week-end my friends caught on that I don't have my dog leashed in
their yard when I'm outside romping her. (They don't really get the
concept of romping, as their Lab is never allowed off-leash so never
plays fetch or frisbee, etc.) They were quite severe with me about how
my dog might run off after some animal. They honestly can't believe
that my dog would come if I called her. Come, hell, my dog doesn't want
to leave my side!

This really has me scratching my head. My sister's border collies
compete nationwide in sheep dog trials. My dog's favorite playmate is a
seeing eye dog (with whom we have dog playdates.) My brother-in-law's
dog is a trained Doberman attack dog. Ela is a slouch compared to these
trained-to-perfection dogs. So maybe I just hang out in elite dog
crowds, but does this seem normal to you?

These are really nice, smart, well-meaning people. They think they're
being wonderful to their dogs, and think I'm being abusive to mine by
letting her off-leash, feeding her dry (Cohen-approved) kibble, and
letting her have raw hide bones. They've had dogs longer than me, and
going back 20 years I recall that every one of them was an ill-mannered
lout that would jump on you and stick their nose in your crouch.

This week-end they said they were thinking of getting a border collie
because "they're loyal." Uh oh. Is there something I could do? I
model good dog communication, but they're sure that my dog just happens
to be on extraordinarily good behavior or that maybe she's incredibly
passive - they just don't get the concept that you can train a dog. Is
there anyway to convince entirely sedentary people who expect their dogs
to stay in crates or pens all day, that don't work with them or train
them, that that a border collie might be a bad idea?

Dally

P.S. And while I'm at it, how can I tell them to get rid of the bowflex
and get a power cage instead?

Do these friends have very strong religious and/or political views?
Just curious.

Their religious and/or political views might be affected by their being
clones of Josef Mengele.

David

Curt James said:

You really should give your friends a clue about dog
training. I mean if they can benefit from your experience then cut
them (and, more importantly, THE DOGS) some slack.

How do I do that? They honestly think that 80 pound Labradors are just
going to jump on people when they come to the door. 400 people come to
my door each year and my dog jumps on exactly ZERO of them. We talked
about this a bit today, and they assured me that she MIGHT jump on one
of them at any moment, I'm just fooling myself to think she won't. They
figure training won't counter programming so why bother training.

Furthermore, their system works for them. They don't see the benefit of
putting in all that time and going to classes. They've got x-pens.
They've got dog gates. They got leashes. They've had dogs continuously
for over 20 years without ever training any of them. How do you change
that?

Quoted message said:

Offer to dog sit for them. Get them a gift certificate to a nice local
restaurant and then offer to stay with the mutts while they're
enjoying several hours away from the poor animals. While their
misguided owners are absent, you can let one out of its cage and work
your magic.

They'd be horrified the way I'd be horrified if someone sneaked behind
my back to teach my children table manners. (I overheard someone saying
recently, with a straight face, that a three year old was old enough to
know how to behave in a restaurant and the parents ought to be doing a
better job teaching the kid manners.)

Quoted message said:

Or be direct and just come out and tell your friends what your opinion
is. Really. WTF.

My opinion is that their Labrador is getting insufficient exercise (and
so are they) and is needlessly destructive and difficult to live with
because they haven't invested the time in training the dog. I am less
opinionated about the terrier because I consider terriers to be little
horror shows anyway and I don't know what benefits training will give.
It's little enough so they can carry it, and active enough in its pen so
it gets exercise (the tiny terrier and giant Lab have same-size pens).

But when do people get to tell other adults what they OUGHT to be doing?

This is related to the perennial thread about how to help your obese
friends lose weight. Um, you can't. They won't lose weight unless they
value fitness. My friends won't train their dogs because they don't
value trained dogs.

Quoted message said:

You're part of the problem as it stands now.

This train of thought has reminded me of my grandmother's guard dog. It
was a mean old German shepherd that I was scared to death of. It was
chained to a stake and the circle it had for a run (including the dog
house) was swept to bear dirt from pacing. No one ever had a kind word
or a warm hearth for that dog.

Maybe chained/penned/imprisoned dogs are more common than I know.

Dally

"Dally" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This train of thought has reminded me of my grandmother's guard dog. It
was a mean old German shepherd that I was scared to death of. It was
chained to a stake and the circle it had for a run (including the dog
house) was swept to bear dirt from pacing. No one ever had a kind word or
a warm hearth for that dog.

Is Grandma dead yet? Lee and I can add her to our death wish list, if not.

Quoted message said:

Maybe chained/penned/imprisoned dogs are more common than I know.

Evil, sadistic, owners, and the enablers in their lives who keep them as
friends and try to justify their sick, demented, behavior.

David

David Cohen said:

"Dally" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This train of thought has reminded me of my grandmother's guard dog. It
was a mean old German shepherd that I was scared to death of. It was
chained to a stake and the circle it had for a run (including the dog
house) was swept to bear dirt from pacing. No one ever had a kind word or
a warm hearth for that dog.

Is Grandma dead yet? Lee and I can add her to our death wish list, if not.

No, but she hasn't owned a dog in many years.

See, that's part of what she lost out on. She doesn't realize what a
good companion they can be. That dog lost out on a decent 12-year life,
but she lost out on 80 years of dog-friendship.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe chained/penned/imprisoned dogs are more common than I know.

Evil, sadistic, owners, and the enablers in their lives who keep them as
friends and try to justify their sick, demented, behavior.

No, don't be coy, tell us what you REALLY think!

Dally

Dally said:

JMW said:

Dally said:

JMW wrote:

>Do these friends have very strong religious and/or political views?
>Just curious.

They are strongly anti-religious, in the same way Cohen is. They think
that faith is a failure of intelligence or a lack of imagination or
evidence of poor scientific training. (One of them was my lab partner
in physics classes many years ago.)

Their belief in lack of belief is strongly held.

Fits the profile. What they believe in wasn't important; it's how
adamant their beliefs are.

There's no sense in you trying to tell them anything. They already
think they have the answer, and they can't imagine why you don't treat
your dog the same.

Hmmm, I guess that makes me the same, too. Not being able to imagine
why they don't treat their dog the same, I mean. It partially shakes me
up so much because I always considered them to be Master Dog Owners.
They are the child-free sort that dote on their dogs. I've watched them
dance attendance on their dogs for years. I just never realized before
how vastly different their relationship is with their dogs than mine is
with my dog.

Meanwhile, at this moment they're probably posting over on
alt.support.child-free about the horrible invasion of children they just
endured. They took off their shoes and waved smelly feet in the air,
one tired child cried on the floor without his mother intervening, they
constantly needed breakfast, lunch, snack, dinner, games, etc etc etc.
I'm sure they're more horrified by me and mine then I was about them and
theirs.

They would have raised children the same way: overprotected and
repressed. And those children would have become utterly intolerable
adults. And their parents would be mystified as to why that occurred.

Dally said:

So that leaves indoor issues. Curt mentioned people crating during the
day while they're at work: a pen is larger than a crate and they aren't
away for 10 hours stretches, so doesn't that make it humane?

Crating is a temporary tool to be supplanted by training.

JMW said:

Dally said:

So that leaves indoor issues. Curt mentioned people crating during the
day while they're at work: a pen is larger than a crate and they aren't
away for 10 hours stretches, so doesn't that make it humane?

Crating is a temporary tool to be supplanted by training.

Yeah, this feels a little like seeing a ten year old using a baby bottle.

My dog has a crate, but the door is left open nearly all the time and
she just uses it as her safe haven. (The boys aren't allowed to go in
the crate.)

She is also occasionally crated when food is out and it's more
convenient to crate her than to put away the food. This sort of crating
lasts maybe 20 minutes, although once we had her crated for a couple of
hours for a party. (She'd eat all the hors d'oevres in an instant.)

She has the run of the house most of the time, and hangs out within
sight of me most of the work day. But we know that most people don't
have their dogs with them during the work day. Cohen, you certainly
don't. So what do you do with them? They must be confined in SOME respect.

We also know that most people don't run with their dogs. Taking them
outside and standing there while they pee is probably more the norm than
our regimen (mile walks once or twice a day, occasional runs in the
park, frisbee romp every afternoon administered by Boy She Loves.) My
dog doesn't have it normal, she has Dog Heaven. So is it really abuse
if you don't provide Dog Heaven?

Dally