Boutique wheels versus Traditional Wheels??

[Germanboxer]

The main question I have is: are these boutique wheels (ie. low spoke count, funky lacing pattern wheels) really any faster than a well-built traditional wheel? If so, then are they less durable?

I bought a wheelset from Joe Young (used to build for team Ritchey) and he said for my weight (205, hope to be at 185 for my first race season next year) he recommended Mavic CXP33 rims 32 spoke. I had it built with Hugi 240 hubs and it is perfectly true after 2500 late season hard miles. He also said that low spoke counts go against good wheel building principles...something like, for a given strength wheel, a low spoke count requires a much heavier/stronger rim than a higher spoke count wheel and thus adds to the rotational inertia of the wheel.

Granted, he builds custom wheels and therefore has a stake in people avoiding the "boutique wheels" I suppose, but he sounded very sincere and knowledgable. He also tensions the wheel higher than most and will exchange spokes/rims until he can get a tension +/- 5% I think he said.

These wheels feel very responsive compared to my other Dura-Ace/Open pro wheels, even though the weights aren't significantly different. I'm wondering if a set of Ksyriums SL's would really be any faster or more durable?

Thanks in advance for any insight you all may provide.

 

[capwater]

Can't speak for everyone, but my Ks are awesome and that has been echoed by many of my riding mates of all shapes and sizes. I can't argue that a traditional 32 hole spoke wheel is very strong, but they aren't the only ones. I do know that some of the 16 paired spoke wheels have weight restrictions/recommendations of 175lbs. I would assume that since this caution comes from the manufacturer, it must have a valid basis.

 

[daveornee]

Originally posted by Germanboxer
The main question I have is: are these boutique wheels (ie. low spoke count, funky lacing pattern wheels) really any faster than a well-built traditional wheel? If so, then are they less durable?

I bought a wheelset from Joe Young (used to build for team Ritchey) and he said for my weight (205, hope to be at 185 for my first race season next year) he recommended Mavic CXP33 rims 32 spoke. I had it built with Hugi 240 hubs and it is perfectly true after 2500 late season hard miles. He also said that low spoke counts go against good wheel building principles...something like, for a given strength wheel, a low spoke count requires a much heavier/stronger rim than a higher spoke count wheel and thus adds to the rotational inertia of the wheel.

Granted, he builds custom wheels and therefore has a stake in people avoiding the "boutique wheels" I suppose, but he sounded very sincere and knowledgable. He also tensions the wheel higher than most and will exchange spokes/rims until he can get a tension +/- 5% I think he said.

These wheels feel very responsive compared to my other Dura-Ace/Open pro wheels, even though the weights aren't significantly different. I'm wondering if a set of Ksyriums SL's would really be any faster or more durable?

Thanks in advance for any insight you all may provide.

Ksyrium's could be slightly faster due to the lower spoke count.
I doubt that they would be more durable than your current wheelset. Joe Young uses all the right techniques to build a durable wheel. Joe also uses high quality components.
I build wheels as a hobby. I find CXP-33 rims to work well and provide strength and a slight aero advantage over Open Pro rims.
Joe's spoke tension balancing is a very important part of his quality build.
If you are looking for additional perfomance for your money, you might consider training aids, heart rate monitor, professional coaching, and those types of things. It is really about the rider.

 

[rv]

I'm sure the wheels you describe are just as good or better than most of the prebuilt wheelsets out there. while not as light-weight as the ksyriums, the aerodynamics are reasonably close even with the higher spoke count. wheels with a rim profile less than 38mm are not really "aero" wheels, anyway.

I did something similar to you. I had a wheelset built by a local who is a great wheelsmith. I used 28 hole chris king hubs, 14 gauge spokes, and open pro rims, but I weigh 160 instead of 205. my wheels weigh 1685g which compares favorably with quite a few "boutique" wheelsets. also, any bike shop in the boonies can replace a broken spoke. try to find a bladed ksyrium spoke in Smalltown, Anywhere when you're in a hurry.

while they don't have the cachet of big name pre-built wheels, they are bomb proof, relatively light, and should provide long reliable, robust service. mine and yours.

and this is not a knock against prebuilt wheelsets. I have a set of rolf and a set of hed wheels. both of which have been problem free, but they are limited duty wheels and cost alot more than my locally hand built wheels.

 

[Germanboxer]

Originally posted by daveornee
Ksyrium's could be slightly faster due to the lower spoke count.
I doubt that they would be more durable than your current wheelset. Joe Young uses all the right techniques to build a durable wheel. Joe also uses high quality components.
I build wheels as a hobby. I find CXP-33 rims to work well and provide strength and a slight aero advantage over Open Pro rims.
Joe's spoke tension balancing is a very important part of his quality build.
If you are looking for additional perfomance for your money, you might consider training aids, heart rate monitor, professional coaching, and those types of things. It is really about the rider.

Thanks Dave! This is the conclusion I came to less than 5 months ago when I ended up buying the wheels from Joe Young. I do love the way some of the boutique wheels look and the light weights are enticing, but after talking with Joe for some time on the phone, I came away feeling that he knows and understands a GREAT deal about wheel building.

I'm sure my desire for less weight/lower spoke counts was evident at the beginning, but he continued to steer me away from even 28 spoke wheels built by him. This could have cost him a sale, but in the end I left the conversation feeling that I would have as responsive of a wheelset that was possible for my weight and style (more sprinter / masher type).

He talked for some time about the transfer of power to the wheel and how a well balanced, properly tensioned conventional wheel cannot be surpassed (again for someone my size and style).

BTW, do you have a book or website you recommend for learning how to build wheels? I'm an engineer and feel myself really wanting to learn/understand this art. Thanks!!

 

[Germanboxer]

Originally posted by rv
I'm sure the wheels you describe are just as good or better than most of the prebuilt wheelsets out there. while not as light-weight as the ksyriums, the aerodynamics are reasonably close even with the higher spoke count. wheels with a rim profile less than 38mm are not really "aero" wheels, anyway.

I did something similar to you. I had a wheelset built by a local who is a great wheelsmith. I used 28 hole chris king hubs, 14 gauge spokes, and open pro rims, but I weigh 160 instead of 205. my wheels weigh 1685g which compares favorably with quite a few "boutique" wheelsets. also, any bike shop in the boonies can replace a broken spoke. try to find a bladed ksyrium spoke in Smalltown, Anywhere when you're in a hurry.

while they don't have the cachet of big name pre-built wheels, they are bomb proof, relatively light, and should provide long reliable, robust service. mine and yours.

and this is not a knock against prebuilt wheelsets. I have a set of rolf and a set of hed wheels. both of which have been problem free, but they are limited duty wheels and cost alot more than my locally hand built wheels.

This was another aspect that slightly swayed me toward the conventional wheel, RV. I like to be able to take care of my equipment myself and the thought of not being able to replace a spoke on my own was a minus for the "boutique" wheels. That said, I may never need to replace a spoke on this wheelset. I cannot see a measurable change in the "trueness" of these wheels since I received them 2500 miles ago.

BTW, how do you like your Chris King hubs? I think they are similar in weight and function as the DT Swiss Hugi's that are on my wheels?

 

[rv]

as far as I'm concerned, there is no better hub. I have a friend who has built 3 sets of mtb wheels around the same set of chris king hubs...that is, he's replaced full sets of spokes and rims, but used the original hubs.

 

[nogami]

Joe Young has a great reputation. I've had no experience with low spoke count wheels myself, and I don't race, but I see a lot of them up on repair stands during Dalmac, along with some grumbling about Mavics in particular as far as durability on rough roads.

 

[drewski]

Originally posted by Germanboxer
BTW, do you have a book or website you recommend for learning how to build wheels? I'm an engineer and feel myself really wanting to learn/understand this art. Thanks!!

the old standby is "The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt. one of the big advocates of the higher spoke tensions.

you can find him on rec.bicycles.tech belittling posters from all walks and backgrounds . . . uh . . . i mean . . . he has a ton of knowledge, but can be stubborn and has strong opinions on many things.

 

[sea]

I use the low end wheel of the Rolf Victor line. It's true, because of the heaver rim the start from a stop is noticable slower. Remember the laws of moton, though - once it's going it wants to keep going. That, of course, could be an advantage or a disadvantage.

On the other hand I've had them 22 months and never had to true them. I even had an accident that would have distroyed a lesser wheel these survived without any damage. Since I commute on very bad streets their toughness & lack of a need for frequent maintance makes up for the slugish starts.

Sea

 

[Germanboxer]

Originally posted by sea
Remember the laws of moton, though - once it's going it wants to keep going. That, of course, could be an advantage or a disadvantage.


Sea

Hmmm... maybe that's why when I've been riding fast for awhile I eventually start slowing down. Not enough inertia?? Perhaps I've been thinking about this completely wrong? Maybe I should go with even heavier rims to keep that damn object in motion?! Now if I can just find a Mack truck wheel that will fit my Serotta?

 

[JohnO]

My experience: Have had a set of Rolf Vector Pro's for almost two years. Very low spoke count - 14 front / 16 rear, about the lowest ever made, 30mm rim depth - moderate aero, but enough to cover the spoke nipples.

Compared to the more traditional wheelset I have used - Mavic Open Pro on Chorus hubs in 3 cross laced pattern, the Rolfs seem to be better in high speed situations, especially fast downhill runs.

On level ground, they might hold a slightly higher speed, but I don't have hard figures to back that up, might be just a perceived advantage.

Durability on the Rolfs has been terrific. They were just a hair out of true when I got them almost two years ago, and have needed no attention in around 2k miles of riding. I weigh 170, and while I don't abuse wheels, these have had a hard lick or two and come through with flying colors.

However, there are some drawbacks. The low spoke count aero wheels tend to deliver a harsh ride. You pretty much need to get a trained wheelbuilder to true them, they take special equipment and knowledge. (but they don't need truing very often) I'm not bad at wheelwork, but when I found a spare set of rims for my Rolfs, and later a set of hubs, I got a pro to build them up for me. Just too different.

Oh, and if you get any sort of aero wheel, get some spare spokes. Each tends to have its own unique spoke length and design, and most LBS's don't stock that wide a variety of spokes.

Another reason I like the Rolfs - they're reasonably priced on the used market. A clean set of vector pros on ebay sells in the $300-350 range.