Boutique wheel - I don't believe this!

[richard]

Rode this morning, and a(n over-weight) rider with paired spoke wheels
broke one spoke. Unlike what I've read many times, the wheel remained
reasonably true for the remaining 35 miles or so of the ride!

I'd always heard that, if just one spoke broke, the wheel would warp to
being unusable almost immediately...

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:54:49 -0500, richard <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Rode this morning, and a(n over-weight) rider with paired spoke wheels
>broke one spoke. Unlike what I've read many times, the wheel remained
>reasonably true for the remaining 35 miles or so of the ride!
>
>I'd always heard that, if just one spoke broke, the wheel would warp to
>being unusable almost immediately...

Yeah, I've read stuff like that in this group.

I've broken spokes on 28-hole wheels (not paired spoke super-low spoke
count) and not noticed it till after the race I was in on two
occasions I think. In one of those cases, I rode home about 9 miles
afterwards -- so it was like 18 or 20 miles on the break. In the
other case, I don't know when the spoke broke -- I only noticed it the
next time I used the wheel.

And once where I did notice but kept riding -- near the end of the
event and the wobble wasn't much.

JT

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[G.T.]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:54:49 -0500, richard <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Rode this morning, and a(n over-weight) rider with paired spoke wheels
>> broke one spoke. Unlike what I've read many times, the wheel remained
>> reasonably true for the remaining 35 miles or so of the ride!
>>
>> I'd always heard that, if just one spoke broke, the wheel would warp to
>> being unusable almost immediately...
>
> Yeah, I've read stuff like that in this group.
>
> I've broken spokes on 28-hole wheels (not paired spoke super-low spoke
> count) and not noticed it till after the race I was in on two
> occasions I think. In one of those cases, I rode home about 9 miles
> afterwards -- so it was like 18 or 20 miles on the break. In the
> other case, I don't know when the spoke broke -- I only noticed it the
> next time I used the wheel.
>

Wow, you sure don't have much awareness about how your bike is working.

Greg

 

[Jay S. Hill]

G.T. wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> Wow, you sure don't have much awareness about how your bike is working.
>
> Greg

Uh, or the wheel wasn't deformed enough to be noticeable under a variety
of situations, including racing, which was his point.

 

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:11:46 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:54:49 -0500, richard <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Rode this morning, and a(n over-weight) rider with paired spoke wheels
>>broke one spoke. Unlike what I've read many times, the wheel remained
>>reasonably true for the remaining 35 miles or so of the ride!
>>
>>I'd always heard that, if just one spoke broke, the wheel would warp to
>>being unusable almost immediately...
>
>Yeah, I've read stuff like that in this group.
>
>I've broken spokes on 28-hole wheels (not paired spoke super-low spoke
>count) and not noticed it till after the race I was in on two
>occasions I think. In one of those cases, I rode home about 9 miles
>afterwards -- so it was like 18 or 20 miles on the break. In the
>other case, I don't know when the spoke broke -- I only noticed it the
>next time I used the wheel.
>
>And once where I did notice but kept riding -- near the end of the
>event and the wobble wasn't much.
>
>JT
>
>****************************
>Remove "remove" to reply
>Visit http://www.jt10000.com
>****************************

Dear John,

Sometimes I've had broken spokes that immediately let the rim rub
against the brake pad, but I've had a few experiences like yours,
where the rim seemed to be okay for a while.

I once heard a loud noise when a rear spoke broke on a 36-spoke wheel
while I was cruising along on smooth, clean pavement.

I stopped, saw the broken spoke, noticed no rim rubbing against the
brake pad, and rode half a mile more to my garage without a problem.

What I saw was the button side of the spoke missing. The end of the
spoke was still firmly in the flange hole.

I've wondered if a spoke with a bit of an elbow left can still hold
some tension, due to the 3-cross arrangement keeping it pushed into
the flange hole.

This explanation seems unlikely, but it seemed just as unlikely that
the rim didn't notice that the spoke had broken.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:42:30 -0700, "G.T." <[email protected]>
wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:54:49 -0500, richard <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Rode this morning, and a(n over-weight) rider with paired spoke wheels
>>> broke one spoke. Unlike what I've read many times, the wheel remained
>>> reasonably true for the remaining 35 miles or so of the ride!
>>>
>>> I'd always heard that, if just one spoke broke, the wheel would warp to
>>> being unusable almost immediately...
>>
>> Yeah, I've read stuff like that in this group.
>>
>> I've broken spokes on 28-hole wheels (not paired spoke super-low spoke
>> count) and not noticed it till after the race I was in on two
>> occasions I think. In one of those cases, I rode home about 9 miles
>> afterwards -- so it was like 18 or 20 miles on the break. In the
>> other case, I don't know when the spoke broke -- I only noticed it the
>> next time I used the wheel.
>>
>
>Wow, you sure don't have much awareness about how your bike is working.

In a hard race I sure don't.

In one case I thought I'd just dented the wheel and flipped the quick
release open as it seemd to be rubbing a little. Only when I stopped
did I see the spoke was broken.

In another the brakes weren't rubbing at all -- in fact the wheel
*barely* had a wobble (a deep carbon rim). That's the one I didn't
notice till the next time I used it.

JT

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[jim beam]

richard wrote:
> Rode this morning, and a(n over-weight) rider with paired spoke wheels
> broke one spoke. Unlike what I've read many times, the wheel remained
> reasonably true for the remaining 35 miles or so of the ride!
>
> I'd always heard that, if just one spoke broke, the wheel would warp to
> being unusable almost immediately...

depends on the rim and whether you believe the fud. a wheel is not
solely the products of its spokes as some would have you believe - the
rim is a significant, arguably dominant, contributor to the wheel
equation. so, since low spoke count wheels generally have stiff rims,
there really should be not too much surprise here.

 

[G.T.]

Jay S. Hill wrote:
> G.T. wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>
>> Wow, you sure don't have much awareness about how your bike is working.
>>
>> Greg
>
>
> Uh, or the wheel wasn't deformed enough to be noticeable under a variety
> of situations, including racing, which was his point.

Well, I guess it's been so long since I or my riding partners have
broken a spoke that the last time was back when rims were weak and no
one was using these fancy strong deep dish rims.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 22:38:12 -0700, "G.T." <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Well, I guess it's been so long since I or my riding partners have
>broken a spoke that the last time was back when rims were weak and no
>one was using these fancy strong deep dish rims.

Congratulations.

JT

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[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

richard wrote:
> Rode this morning, and a(n over-weight) rider with paired spoke wheels
> broke one spoke. Unlike what I've read many times, the wheel remained
> reasonably true for the remaining 35 miles or so of the ride!
>
> I'd always heard that, if just one spoke broke, the wheel would warp to
> being unusable almost immediately...

Some do and some don't...what is amazing to me is some sales
butt-nugget sold this gent these wheels and convinced him they would be
fine and dandy-

 

[daveornee]

Jay S. Hill wrote:
> G.T. wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>
>> Wow, you sure don't have much awareness about how your bike is working.
>>
>> Greg
>
>
> Uh, or the wheel wasn't deformed enough to be noticeable under a variety
> of situations, including racing, which was his point.

Well, I guess it's been so long since I or my riding partners have
broken a spoke that the last time was back when rims were weak and no
one was using these fancy strong deep dish rims.

Greg

--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

Some stiff rims are coupled with stiff spokes. If a stiff rim/spoke combination has a broken spoke there will be very little loss of true. This doesn't mean that the wheel is stable with the loss of spoke support.

 

[Werehatrack]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:54:49 -0500, richard <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Rode this morning, and a(n over-weight) rider with paired spoke wheels
>broke one spoke. Unlike what I've read many times, the wheel remained
>reasonably true for the remaining 35 miles or so of the ride!
>
>I'd always heard that, if just one spoke broke, the wheel would warp to
>being unusable almost immediately...

It would. It was almost certainly undertensioned. That would also
tend to increase the chances of a spoke breaking.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Werehatrack]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 20:32:54 -0600, [email protected] wrote:


>I've wondered if a spoke with a bit of an elbow left can still hold
>some tension, due to the 3-cross arrangement keeping it pushed into
>the flange hole.

The cross pattern won't hold the spoke in place. No useful tension
would remain unless the head of the spoke still had enough material
left to prevent the wire from pulling through the flange. I've seen
that once, so it's possible to lose part of the button and still keep
some tension on the spoke. It chews up the flange if not corrected,
though. Breakage at the elbow is the more usual failure in my
experience.

>This explanation seems unlikely, but it seemed just as unlikely that
>the rim didn't notice that the spoke had broken.

36-spoke wheels that lose tension on one spoke can be remarkably good
about not skewing, depending on the rim employed and the spoke tension
levels.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[daveornee]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 20:32:54 -0600, [email protected] wrote:


>I've wondered if a spoke with a bit of an elbow left can still hold
>some tension, due to the 3-cross arrangement keeping it pushed into
>the flange hole.

The cross pattern won't hold the spoke in place. No useful tension
would remain unless the head of the spoke still had enough material
left to prevent the wire from pulling through the flange. I've seen
that once, so it's possible to lose part of the button and still keep
some tension on the spoke. It chews up the flange if not corrected,
though. Breakage at the elbow is the more usual failure in my
experience.

>This explanation seems unlikely, but it seemed just as unlikely that
>the rim didn't notice that the spoke had broken.

36-spoke wheels that lose tension on one spoke can be remarkably good
about not skewing, depending on the rim employed and the spoke tension
levels.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

I just measured a 36-Spoke Front wheel I built 3 cross with Sapim Race 14/15 DB spokes, XT-M760 hub, and Velocity Dyad rim. All spokes started at 100 kgf and the rim was laterally and radially true within .2 mm. I reduced the tension on one spoke from 100 kgf to 0 kgf. The rim deflected laterally 5 mm.
Velocity Dyad rim is 24 mm wide, 22 mm tall, and 480 grams.
I could ride with my brake pads backed away from the rim so they didn't rub, but I would fix it as soon as I could as I would nearly bottom out my brake levers with things adjusted this way.
If the spokes were stiffer, as with 14 g, there would be less deflection. If the spokes were more elastic as with 14/17 g there would be more deflection.
If there was less static tension in all spokes there would be less deflection.
If the rim were stiffer there would be less deflection.
Few standard road rims are as stiff as Velocity Dyad rims.

 

[[email protected]]

richard wrote:
> Rode this morning, and a(n over-weight) rider with paired spoke wheels
> broke one spoke. Unlike what I've read many times, the wheel remained
> reasonably true for the remaining 35 miles or so of the ride!
>
> I'd always heard that, if just one spoke broke, the wheel would warp to
> being unusable almost immediately...

Don't believe everything you hear or read. Wheels with minimal spokes
have heavy, deep section rims. These rims are pretty darn stiff. So
they stay truer with broken spokes than a regular box section rim. A
couple weeks ago I was on a ride and broke a rear non drive side spoke
on my 32 hole Open Pro wheel. It went out of true a lot. I had to
undo the rear brake cable to keep it from rubbing. But when we stopped
for lunch an hour or so later I was able to pull out my black Park
spoke wrench I always carry in my saddlebag and true it up enough to
finish the remainder of the day. One of my riding companions had a
spare spoke he gave me and I put it in the next day in about 10
minutes. And the wheel finished the next week of riding just fine.
So when something goes wrong, not if but when, conventional spoked
wheels are easier to deal with than wheels requiring odd spokes or
nipples or wrenches.