BOG(B)OF

Colin Blackburn said:

Someone had left the telly bit from the Daily Star on the bus this
morning. As I flicked through it I noticed an advert for a bike.

Its headline read: 'BUY ONE BIKE & GET ONE FREE'

The bike costs just £99, so that's £49.50 each with the offer, though
carriage is £7.50 per bike.

The bikes are full suspension Y-frame mountain bikes bearing the
well-known name Summit. They are, apparently, 'the biggest bargain in
the history of cycling,' and are built to, 'British Safety Standards'.

So they come with a bell.

Quoted message said:

I wonder how many people will either (a) be disappointed or (b) just
have some more stuff to fill the garage with.

Not far off the £59.50 being charged at my local H*lf*rds either :-(

John B

Colin Blackburn composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

Its headline read: 'BUY ONE BIKE & GET ONE FREE'

The bike costs just £99, so that's £49.50 each with the offer, though
carriage is £7.50 per bike.

Does it really matter if it gets someone cycling who wouldn't have
normally?

Quoted message said:

I wonder how many people will either (a) be disappointed or (b) just
have some more stuff to fill the garage with.

I'm sure many people, after riding them, maybe won't ride them again,
but there will be some who might. I know someone who bought, about four
months ago, a 'stove pipe special' £89.99 full sus, disc brakes etc from
the local car parts shop, and he loves it ... It's [censored] by comparison to
a decent bike, he always wants to ride my bike when we're out together,
(hardtail with limited front sus) but it was all he could afford and he
does enjoy it. He does, now, see it's limitations, mainly 'cos he has a
yardstick against which he can measure it (my bike), but the price and
'flashiness' was what got him into it. He knew I rode and raced MTB's,
but always saw me coming home muddy or bleeding and couldn't understand
why I spent so much on 'a bike just to get muddy'. Now he does and he's
saving up for a better ride .. 😉

I guess it doesn't matter what they start with as long as they do start
cycling.

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
(8(!) Homer Rules ... 😉
"A [censored] is a [censored], no matter what mode of transport they're using."

Paul - censored said:

Does it really matter if it gets someone cycling who wouldn't have
normally?

"it depends"...

Quoted message said:

I'm sure many people, after riding them, maybe won't ride them again,
but there will be some who might.

As above, "it depends". It also might put someone off who'd be more
receptive to cycling on something better suited (and "better suited"
might be a 4th hand Raleigh 20 for a tenner for some jobs like urban
runaround/shopper before you suspect I'm suggesting everyone must spend
at least £200+ on something shiny and spiffing).

Quoted message said:

I guess it doesn't matter what they start with as long as they do start
cycling.

No, they really have to carry on with it, or it's worse than useless.
Picture the following, and whether you see it as a possible
conversation: "I was thinking of giving cycling a go..."; "Wouldn't
bother, I tried cycling, but even though I bought a modern bike with
loads of gears it still seemed very hard work, and I couldn't stick with
it. You're better off joining a gym, I say" :-(

Yes, you can have fun on it tearing round the woods, but that assumes
you're up for Mud Sandwiches as a tasty lunch order and a lot of people
trying out cycling in the UK aren't. And a bit like their cars, many
will see the fashion of MTBs as something they like the image of, so
might well buy while labouring under the misapprehension that they'll
have a good quality utility machine. I enjoy going to the shops on the
right bike, on the wrong bike it's work though and the sort of work that
is != Fun :-(

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

Paul - [censored] wrote:

<snipped, but only for brevity>

Quoted message said:

I enjoy going to
the shops on the right bike, on the wrong bike it's work though and
the sort of work that is != Fun :-(

OK, you make valid arguments, but I guess we'll have to differ.

I actually started riding on an old bike, many times second hand, but it
was a [censored] second hand bike, and about seven sizes too large a frame for
me. I'd rather see a newcomer get a [censored] new bike, than a [censored]
second-hand bike, especially as the prices of new [censored] bikes are
pro-rata 'these days' many times cheaper than the [censored] second hand bikes
we used to get. At least it's fashionable [censored] and they can put the
crapness down to fashion rather than cycling .. 😉

I guess one problem (might also be perceived as a bonus) with these
cheap bikes is that second hand bike prices are likely to drop out, like
cheap cars have decimated the 'good' old banger market, except among
those people who are already cyclists and know a good frame / component
set when they see one.

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
(8(!) Homer Rules ... 😉
"A [censored] is a [censored], no matter what mode of transport they're using."

Paul - censored said:

I'd rather see a newcomer get a [censored] new bike, than a [censored]
second-hand bike, especially as the prices of new [censored] bikes are
pro-rata 'these days' many times cheaper than the [censored] second hand bikes
we used to get.

I'd rather that the common perception that a Lada is a false economy
would permeate the bicycle market so people might see beyond price and
bullet point "more is better" marketing. The average Dutch spend on a
new bike is something like £350 IIRC.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Paul - censored said:

Colin Blackburn composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

Its headline read: 'BUY ONE BIKE & GET ONE FREE'

The bike costs just £99, so that's £49.50 each with the offer, though
carriage is £7.50 per bike.

Does it really matter if it gets someone cycling who wouldn't have
normally?

Quoted message said:

I wonder how many people will either (a) be disappointed or (b) just
have some more stuff to fill the garage with.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I guess it doesn't matter what they start with as long as they do start
cycling.

If the experience is unpleasant enough that they decide they'll never do
it again, it has hardly helped the cause of cycling. If it convinces
them that cycling is so horrible that people should be dissuaded by all
means from cycling as an act of mercy, it has done active harm.

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

JLB composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

Paul - censored said:

Colin Blackburn composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

Its headline read: 'BUY ONE BIKE & GET ONE FREE'

The bike costs just £99, so that's £49.50 each with the offer,
though carriage is £7.50 per bike.

Does it really matter if it gets someone cycling who wouldn't have
normally?

Quoted message said:

I wonder how many people will either (a) be disappointed or (b) just
have some more stuff to fill the garage with.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I guess it doesn't matter what they start with as long as they do
start cycling.

If the experience is unpleasant enough that they decide they'll never
do it again, it has hardly helped the cause of cycling. If it
convinces them that cycling is so horrible that people should be
dissuaded by all means from cycling as an act of mercy, it has done
active harm.

I can't see that, myself. As with PC's post, it's a valid argument, but
give people their due, if something's [censored] they don't always assume that
just 'cos one bit is [censored] then per se the rest is.

Surely someone who starts cycling, but gives up, is better than one who
never even starts ... And almost any new bike today, even the £30 bikes,
are way better than their equivalents in terms of useability than they
were 'in my day', '69 ish plus ... 😉

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
(8(!) Homer Rules ... 😉
"A [censored] is a [censored], no matter what mode of transport they're using."

Paul - censored said:

JLB composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

Paul - censored said:

Colin Blackburn composed the following;:

> Its headline read: 'BUY ONE BIKE & GET ONE FREE'
>
> The bike costs just £99, so that's £49.50 each with the offer,
> though carriage is £7.50 per bike.

Does it really matter if it gets someone cycling who wouldn't have
normally?

> I wonder how many people will either (a) be disappointed or (b) just
> have some more stuff to fill the garage with.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I guess it doesn't matter what they start with as long as they do
start cycling.

If the experience is unpleasant enough that they decide they'll never
do it again, it has hardly helped the cause of cycling. If it
convinces them that cycling is so horrible that people should be
dissuaded by all means from cycling as an act of mercy, it has done
active harm.

I can't see that, myself. As with PC's post, it's a valid argument, but
give people their due, if something's [censored] they don't always assume that
just 'cos one bit is [censored] then per se the rest is.

I did not suggest that must be the outcome, I just suggested two
possible outcomes that don't fit with your optimism. Also, if the buyer
of such bikes really has no other experience of modern cycling, they
have nothing to measure it against. That increases the chance they will
assume all bikes are like that.

From my own experience, I had no idea what was better about good
quality bikes until I actually rode one.

Quoted message said:

Surely someone who starts cycling, but gives up, is better than one who
never even starts ...

Not if it turns them anti-cycling.

And almost any new bike today, even the £30 bikes,

Quoted message said:

are way better than their equivalents in terms of useability than they
were 'in my day', '69 ish plus ... 😉

Possibly. I started off in the mid-60s on a Hercules (AFAIR)
hand-me-down girls bike with rod brakes and knackered tyres. It took
years before I was willing to try riding again.

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

Quoted message said:

I'd rather that the common perception that a Lada is a false economy
would permeate the bicycle market so people might see beyond price and
bullet point "more is better" marketing.

True, got a mate that wishes he hadn't got a bike with suspension forks.
The thingy in the pedals is somehow knackered too.

On the other hand, apart from the pedals and the weight, it's a perfectly
fine bike for what he wants it for. According to last months CTC mag the
group consensus of £200+ is well off the mark. Price has come down, but so
has the price of quality.

Colin Blackburn said:

I wonder how many people will either (a) be disappointed or (b) just
have some more stuff to fill the garage with.

The sort of person buying a £49 bike is very unlikely to lay out for a
"proper" bike so is it better they are riding a bike and possibly
getting hooked than not riding at all? Most of the people in your
categories a and b would be in those categories still with a more
expensive bike.

Tony

Paul - censored said:

I can't see that, myself. As with PC's post, it's a valid argument, but
give people their due, if something's [censored] they don't always assume that
just 'cos one bit is [censored] then per se the rest is.

I'll give /some/ people that, but not *everyone*!

Quoted message said:

And almost any new bike today, even the £30 bikes,
are way better than their equivalents in terms of useability than they
were 'in my day', '69 ish plus ... 😉

Up to a point... my Raleigh Olympus was basically a [censored] thing designed
to primarily appeal to fashion (of kids wanting "racers"😉, /but/ it
would have weighed less than a full sus Y frame with "fat tubing for
extra strength" and it didn't have suspension to pogo the bike and waste
energy going up a hill, so as a result there were many circumstances
where it would be easier to propel at a reasonable speed. A smaller
choice of gears that were harder to use, but amongst people who can't or
won't use gears well (I was certainly one of those, what a masher!)
that's a moot point. The brakes today are miles better, but I spend
more time pedalling than braking. It was also a damn site easier to put
a rack on the back to take some Stuff because the back didn't bounce up
and down.

So define "way better"... As I pointed out, a 4th hand Raleigh 20 is a
better basic design of urban runaround than a new Y frame comedy MTB.
It's a better basic design of urban runaround than a Cannondale Raven Y
frame Extremely Expensive MTB, for that matter, and they were £4,000!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

So define "way better"...

As I said, in terms of useability. The components used today are much
more cohesive packages, that work together far better than they did.

Needs and requirements have changed over the years, so I guess direct
comparisons can't be drawn easily, at least nowadays not everyone wants
a 'racer' but that was about all that was available 'then'.

Quoted message said:

As I pointed out, a 4th hand Raleigh 20 is
a better basic design of urban runaround than a new Y frame comedy
MTB.

Providing one wants an urban runaround. I don't and neither did my
friend who bought the autoshop special .. 😉

Quoted message said:

It's a better basic design of urban runaround than a Cannondale
Raven Y frame Extremely Expensive MTB, for that matter, and they were
£4,000!

I agree.

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
(8(!) Homer Rules ... 😉
"A [censored] is a [censored], no matter what mode of transport they're using."

Paul - censored said:

Providing one wants an urban runaround. I don't and neither did my
friend who bought the autoshop special .. 😉

But some people do: my point is that Getting People On Any Bike is not
/necessarily/ a good thing *if* it's the wrong bike that might put them
off. I'm not claiming 100% of cases here!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

But some people do: my point is that Getting People On Any Bike is not
/necessarily/ a good thing *if* it's the wrong bike that might put
them off.

OK, I take your point, but disagree. People have always been put of f
when they first get on a bike by how hard it is initially, no matter
what the bike is. OTOH, people have also ridden a [censored] bike for the
first time and finally got an inkling of why cyclists love it so much,
and carry on cycling ... A feeling which they'd never have got if they
never ride at all.

Quoted message said:

I'm not claiming 100% of cases here!

Heheheh, neither am I .. 😉

It'd be an interesting exercise (for someone I guess) to note names and
addresses from people who buy these cheap bikes, then follow up a year
and two / three years later to see if they were still cycling, had
bought a better bike, just carried on with that bike or it's
replacement, or indeed never ridden again.

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
(8(!) Homer Rules ... 😉
"A [censored] is a [censored], no matter what mode of transport they're using."

Paul - [censored] wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

It'd be an interesting exercise (for someone I guess) to note names and
addresses from people who buy these cheap bikes, then follow up a year
and two / three years later to see if they were still cycling, had
bought a better bike, just carried on with that bike or it's
replacement, or indeed never ridden again.

Good grief, man, what are you *on*?

What the hell would happen to Usenet if people simply did research to
establish the facts instead of jumping straight into the arguments full
of baseless opinions, prejudice and hand-waving?

End of Civilisation As We Know It, that's what...

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

JLB said:

What the hell would happen to Usenet if people simply did research to
establish the facts instead of jumping straight into the arguments full
of baseless opinions, prejudice and hand-waving?

At least he said he wasn't going to do it himself! ;-)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

JLB said:

What the hell would happen to Usenet if people simply did research to
establish the facts instead of jumping straight into the arguments
full of baseless opinions, prejudice and hand-waving?

At least he said he wasn't going to do it himself! ;-)

Damn right .. I'll see if I can get a government grant, setup a research
foundation and pay myself a fortune as director, with a view to
extrapolating the results to include those who also bought which
accessories and who still wears said accessories even though they might
have dubious, unproven, safety merits ... Or has this bit already been
done somewhere 😉

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
(8(!) Homer Rules ... 😉
"A [censored] is a [censored], no matter what mode of transport they're using."