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Body suits should be banned

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
15 September 2003
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15 September 2003
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Duncan Heenan
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  1. The decision by various international swimming regulators to accept body suits for competition is
    regrettable, and should be reversed for several reasons which arise from a consideration of why we
    swim and why we compete.

    Most people who swim regularly do not compete. They swim for the fun, fitness and the sensual
    pleasure of being weightless in the water. This applies as much to club swimmers as to 'leisure'
    swimmers. Young children do not join swimming clubs to race, they learn the competitive spirit
    later, from their coaches and sometimes their parents. And yet the whole ethos of clubs is to push
    young swimmers in to competitions. Indeed the term 'Swimming Club' is a misnomer in many cases,
    because they are in fact racing clubs, with little credit given to members who just want to swim.

    This is not to denigrate competition, just to put it in perspective. For those who like to compete -
    fine, do so, but ask yourself what you are doing. There is a natural competitiveness in some people
    which has led to competitions in virtually every walk of life from fishing to flower arranging.
    However, at the basis of all is the attempt to prove who is the best at the particular activity.
    Where equipment is necessary to the activity the competition becomes a split thing, such as in motor
    racing where there is a drivers' championship and a constructors championship. The drivers compete
    in driving skill, and the engineers in car building. However in many sports which need equipment, to
    try to return the competition to the players, limits are set on the equipment to make for a 'level
    playing field'
    . For example in sailing, most races are class races where boats are essentially the same and it is
    sailing skill that wins the day. In golf, all sets of clubs are more or less the same so no-one
    comments much on the winners irons or woods, they talk about the golfers.

    In swimming, very little equipment is actually necessary. A cap may be needed to control hair in the
    water, goggles to protect the eyes, earplugs and a nose clip for those who are vulnerable, and a
    minimal costume to respect society's sensibilities. That is the only function of the costume - it is
    not meant to improve performance, just not to hamper it. So far costumes have aimed to minimise
    their own drag in the water and thereby keep the performance of the swimmer dependent on their
    strength and technique. Even those techniques (strokes) were made as near equal as possible.

    Body suits are a fundamental departure in philosophy, in that they aim not just to minimise the
    costume's own drag in the water, but to reduce friction with the water below that of the swimmer's
    skin. In effect, they start to make the result depend on equipment as well as the swimmer. If they
    are proved to work they will doubtless become de-rigour for top competitions, and then by imitation,
    their use will work its down the scale to club, and even school level. When the point is reached
    where everyone is wearing them the 'playing field' will be 'level' again, but at a huge cost to all
    and no competitive advantage gained, except where those who can not afford the cost drop out of the
    sport. The only winners in the process will be the costume manufactures who drive this trend for
    obvious commercial reasons.

    Even if using the body suits allows the reduction of records, what is the point of that? The records
    will not be comparable with those set not using the suits. In effect it would be like comparing
    Michael Schumaker's record with that of Fangio - utterly pointless because they had different
    equipment.

    If one allows body suits, an escalation of equipment use and sophistication is inevitable in a world
    obsessed with everything always having to get bigger, better, faster. A sports meet without a new
    record is now condemned as boring. A gold medal without a new record is not enough to the moguls
    with the money and media influence who control the top of sport nowadays. In this never ending
    search for a new record, can we expect to see the use of fins, webbed gloves, webs under the arms,
    snorkels, pointed helmets and so on? And what will it all prove? All too often scientists and
    engineers do things because they can, without ever stopping to think whether they should.

    Going back to the basics of why we swim, body suits have no place. They have to be worn
    uncomfortably tight to work, and thereby remove any pleasure from the water. They are horrendously
    expensive, liable to damage and difficult to look after.

    Very sensibly, the British Long Distance Swimming Association and Channel Swimming Association have
    always resisted pressure to allow wet suits, flippers and other equipment. A dab of grease on the
    bits that rub, and otherwise being at one with the elements is an essential part of the open
    water/long distance sport, whether it is competitive, or you just want to stay the course. The
    sprint sport should be equally strong minded.

    Those who run our sport at the top are largely self appointed. They act as if it is their divine
    right to tell the swimming public what they must accept. However, when they are wrong we should tell
    them so. It time to reclaim our sport for the mass who do it for enjoyment, and have no financial
    motives. What happens at the Olympics today will happen at the Club tomorrow by sheer wannabe
    copycating of the weak minded, fuelled by advertising images which make us ashamed if we don't have
    all the gear they tell us we should have. Join with me in telling the ASA, FINA and anyone else who
    might listen that bodysuits are unnecessary, undesirable and for the good of the wider sport should
    be banned.

  2. If you woould banne bodysuits, there might be one very large issue, When is the garment a body
    suit??? I can think that this is very difficult because they should wear something.

    P.S. It's not "bigger, better, faster." but "Cittius, Altius, Fortius."

    "Duncan Heenan" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The decision by various international swimming regulators to accept body suits for competition is
    regrettable, and should be reversed for several reasons which arise from a consideration of why we
    swim and why we


    compete.

    Quoted message said:


    Most people who swim regularly do not compete. They swim for the fun, fitness and the sensual
    pleasure of being weightless in the water. This applies as much to club swimmers as to 'leisure'
    swimmers. Young children


    do

    Quoted message said:

    not join swimming clubs to race, they learn the competitive spirit later, from their coaches
    and sometimes their parents. And yet the whole ethos of clubs is to push young swimmers in
    to competitions. Indeed the term 'Swimming Club' is a misnomer in many cases, because they
    are in fact


    racing

    Quoted message said:

    clubs, with little credit given to members who just want to swim.

    This is not to denigrate competition, just to put it in perspective. For those who like to compete
    - fine, do so, but ask yourself what you are doing. There is a natural competitiveness in some
    people which has led to competitions in virtually every walk of life from fishing to flower
    arranging. However, at the basis of all is the attempt to prove who is the best at the particular
    activity. Where equipment is necessary to the activity the competition becomes a split thing, such
    as in motor racing where there is a drivers' championship and a constructors championship.


    The

    Quoted message said:

    drivers compete in driving skill, and the engineers in car building.


    However

    Quoted message said:

    in many sports which need equipment, to try to return the competition to


    the

    Quoted message said:

    players, limits are set on the equipment to make for a 'level playing


    field'

    Quoted message said:

    . For example in sailing, most races are class races where boats are essentially the same and it
    is sailing skill that wins the day. In golf,


    all

    Quoted message said:

    sets of clubs are more or less the same so no-one comments much on the winners irons or woods,
    they talk about the golfers.

    In swimming, very little equipment is actually necessary. A cap may be needed to control hair in
    the water, goggles to protect the eyes, earplugs and a nose clip for those who are vulnerable, and
    a minimal costume to respect society's sensibilities. That is the only function of the


    costume -

    Quoted message said:

    it is not meant to improve performance, just not to hamper it. So far costumes have aimed to
    minimise their own drag in the water and thereby


    keep

    Quoted message said:

    the performance of the swimmer dependent on their strength and technique. Even those techniques
    (strokes) were made as near equal as possible.

    Body suits are a fundamental departure in philosophy, in that they aim not just to minimise the
    costume's own drag in the water, but to reduce


    friction

    Quoted message said:

    with the water below that of the swimmer's skin. In effect, they start to make the result depend
    on equipment as well as the swimmer. If they are proved to work they will doubtless become
    de-rigour for top competitions, and then by imitation, their use will work its down the scale to
    club, and even school level. When the point is reached where everyone is wearing


    them

    Quoted message said:

    the 'playing field' will be 'level' again, but at a huge cost to all and


    no

    Quoted message said:

    competitive advantage gained, except where those who can not afford the


    cost

    Quoted message said:

    drop out of the sport. The only winners in the process will be the costume manufactures who drive
    this trend for obvious commercial reasons.

    Even if using the body suits allows the reduction of records, what is the point of that? The
    records will not be comparable with those set not using the suits. In effect it would be like
    comparing Michael Schumaker's record with that of Fangio - utterly pointless because they had
    different equipment.

    If one allows body suits, an escalation of equipment use and


    sophistication

    Quoted message said:

    is inevitable in a world obsessed with everything always having to get bigger, better, faster. A
    sports meet without a new record is now


    condemned

    Quoted message said:

    as boring. A gold medal without a new record is not enough to the moguls with the money and media
    influence who control the top of sport nowadays.


    In

    Quoted message said:

    this never ending search for a new record, can we expect to see the use of fins, webbed gloves,
    webs under the arms, snorkels, pointed helmets and so on? And what will it all prove? All too
    often scientists and engineers do things because they can, without ever stopping to think
    whether they


    should.

    Quoted message said:


    Going back to the basics of why we swim, body suits have no place. They


    have

    Quoted message said:

    to be worn uncomfortably tight to work, and thereby remove any pleasure


    from

    Quoted message said:

    the water. They are horrendously expensive, liable to damage and difficult to look after.

    Very sensibly, the British Long Distance Swimming Association and Channel Swimming Association
    have always resisted pressure to allow wet suits, flippers and other equipment. A dab of grease on
    the bits that rub, and otherwise being at one with the elements is an essential part of the open
    water/long distance sport, whether it is competitive, or you just want to stay the course. The
    sprint sport should be equally strong minded.

    Those who run our sport at the top are largely self appointed. They act as if it is their divine
    right to tell the swimming public what they must accept. However, when they are wrong we should
    tell them so. It time to reclaim our sport for the mass who do it for enjoyment, and have no
    financial motives. What happens at the Olympics today will happen at the Club tomorrow by sheer
    wannabe copycating of the weak minded, fuelled by advertising images which make us ashamed if we
    don't have all the gear


    they

    Quoted message said:

    tell us we should have. Join with me in telling the ASA, FINA and anyone else who might listen
    that bodysuits are unnecessary, undesirable and for the good of the wider sport should be banned.

  3. Duncan Heenan said:

    The decision by various international swimming regulators to accept body suits for competition is
    regrettable, and should be reversed for several reasons which arise from a consideration of why we
    swim and why we compete.

    As you have correctly identified there are many reasons why people swim. Most people swim for fun,
    and for them the equipment is of little importance. For others, the reason to swim is to win. This
    is particularly relevant to the elite swimmers. For them, the equipment makes a difference.

    Quoted message said:


    Most people who swim regularly do not compete. They swim for the fun, fitness and the sensual
    pleasure of being weightless in the water. This applies as much to club swimmers as to 'leisure'
    swimmers. Young children do not join swimming clubs to race, they learn the competitive spirit
    later, from their coaches and sometimes their parents. And yet the whole ethos of clubs is to push
    young swimmers in to competitions. Indeed the term 'Swimming Club' is a misnomer in many cases,
    because they are in fact racing clubs, with little credit given to members who just want to swim.

    If you just want to swim, you do not need a club. Competitive swimming clubs are there to promote
    and facilitate competitive swimming. A member of a competitive swimming club should expect to be
    pushed to achieve their best.

    Quoted message said:


    Body suits are a fundamental departure in philosophy, in that they aim not just to minimise the
    costume's own drag in the water, but to reduce friction with the water below that of the swimmer's
    skin. In effect, they start to make the result depend on equipment as well as the swimmer.

    If body suits make such a difference, why was there such a range of equipment seen at this years
    world championships? It was not necessarily wearing body suits that were breaking records and
    winning. Don't forget that the body suits also restrict movement - there are disadvantages as well
    as advantages.

    Quoted message said:


    Even if using the body suits allows the reduction of records, what is the point of that? The
    records will not be comparable with those set not using the suits. In effect it would be like
    comparing Michael Schumaker's record with that of Fangio - utterly pointless because they had
    different equipment.

    What is the point in allowing the strokes to evolve? Can a backstroke event now be compared with
    one 20 years ago? Of course not, the tumble turns are significantly faster than old style turns.
    Sport changes.

    Quoted message said:


    Very sensibly, the British Long Distance Swimming Association and Channel Swimming Association
    have always resisted pressure to allow wet suits, flippers and other equipment. A dab of grease on
    the bits that rub, and otherwise being at one with the elements is an essential part of the open
    water/long distance sport, whether it is competitive, or you just want to stay the course. The
    sprint sport should be equally strong minded.

    There is a big difference between a wet suit in open water swimming and a body suit in racing. A wet
    suit provides significant insulation and a great advantage in cold water. The two situations are not
    equivalent.

    If you do not wish to compete then you will not need any special equipment. For those that do
    compete, they need any small advantage that can be gained.

    --
    Chris Lambert (web.trout-fish.org.ukweb.trout-fish.org.uk) "If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you
    must first create the universe." - Carl Sagan

  4. "Duncan Heenan":

    Quoted message said:

    Body suits are a fundamental departure in philosophy, in that they aim not just to minimise the
    costume's own drag in the water, but to reduce friction with the water below that of the swimmer's
    skin. In effect, they start to make the result depend on equipment as well as the swimmer. If they
    are proved to work they will doubtless become de-rigour for top competitions, and then by
    imitation, their use will work its down the scale to club, and even school level. When the point
    is reached where everyone is wearing them the 'playing field' will be 'level' again, but at a huge
    cost to all and no competitive advantage gained, except where those who can not afford the cost
    drop out of the sport. The only winners in the process will be the costume manufactures who drive
    this trend for obvious commercial reasons.

    I think the only people claiming that these things "work" are the manufacturers. I wouldn't worry
    about it. The main purpose of these kinds of changing styles is to continually create a market for
    products. The athletes wear the stuff because the companies pay them money to do so. If another
    company offers to pay more, the athlete will switch in a moment. Given, as you pointed out, that
    there is precious little equipment involved in swimming, it's kind of hard for athletes to make a
    buck and support themselves by endorsing equipment. So I would cut them a little slack and not
    criticize them if they play along with the swimsuit manufacturers fanciful claims.

  5. "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If you woould banne bodysuits, there might be one very large issue, When is the garment a body
    suit??? I can think that this is very difficult because they should wear


    something.

    Quoted message said:


    P.S. It's not "bigger, better, faster." but "Cittius, Altius, Fortius."

    Citius, with just one t.

    O.

  6. "Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Duncan Heenan":

    Quoted message said:

    Body suits are a fundamental departure in philosophy, in that they aim


    not

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    just to minimise the costume's own drag in the water, but to reduce


    friction

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    with the water below that of the swimmer's skin. In effect, they start


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    make the result depend on equipment as well as the swimmer. If they are proved to work they will
    doubtless become de-rigour for top


    competitions,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and then by imitation, their use will work its down the scale to club,


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    even school level. When the point is reached where everyone is wearing


    them

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the 'playing field' will be 'level' again, but at a huge cost to all and


    no

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    competitive advantage gained, except where those who can not afford the


    cost

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    drop out of the sport. The only winners in the process will be the


    costume

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    manufactures who drive this trend for obvious commercial reasons.

    I think the only people claiming that these things "work" are the manufacturers. I wouldn't worry
    about it. The main purpose of these kinds of changing styles is to continually create a market for
    products.

    As if the swimsuits don't wear out fast enough ! I actually like bodysuits because my skin is
    sensitive to the seam rash at the moving parts. When the seams are at the ankle and the wrist, no
    problem. Especially on distances 3000M and up. Oh, and the 'feel' of the suit tends to remind me to
    streamline better.

    Quoted message said:

    The athletes wear the stuff because the companies pay them money to do so. If another company
    offers to pay more, the athlete will switch in a moment. Given, as you pointed out, that there is
    precious little equipment involved in swimming, it's kind of hard for athletes to make a buck and
    support themselves by endorsing equipment. So I would cut them a little slack and not criticize
    them if they play along with the swimsuit manufacturers fanciful claims.

    yea, I really wonder how much advantage a body suit really gives someone, I'm guessing about as much
    as shaving Psych advantage, and some minuscule amount of drag reduction. Then again, there are seams
    on those suits that one could start arguing they increase drag, then add the potential range of
    motion reduction that someone in here mentioned, whether it's real or
    psychological... I would venture a guess it all pretty much cancels out in the end.

  7. "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If you woould banne bodysuits, there might be one very large issue, When is the garment a body
    suit??? I can think that this is very difficult because they should wear


    something.

    Quoted message said:


    P.S. It's not "bigger, better, faster." but "Cittius, Altius, Fortius."


    Why wear anything?
    PS it's not banne, it's ban.

  8. "Chris Lambert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    snip<. If you do not wish to compete then you will not need any special


    equipment.

    Quoted message said:

    For those that do compete, they need any small advantage that can be gained.


    And once everyone has one, where is the advantage? And at what cost?

  9. Quoted message said:

    As you have correctly identified there are many reasons why people swim. Most people swim for fun,
    and for them the equipment is of little importance. For others, the reason to swim is to win. This
    is particularly relevant to the elite swimmers. For them, the equipment makes a difference.


    Hmm, still there is a point in the previous post. Let's put this in the extreme, a person with a
    body suit today, and some training, can easily overrun the time of a top swimmer who competed twenty
    years ago. The philosophy in sport, like swimming, should be that players/swimmers wear as little
    equipment as possible (this of course doesn't count in the sports such as F1, but then again how
    much Shumacher needs to be in good condition to win the race ? It's a
    pseudo sport.), so that the results from tommorow's race can be competed to the ones of the
    old greeks.

    Just my opinion.

    Luka Djigas [email hidden]

  10. Luka Djigas said:

    Let's put this in the extreme, a person with a body suit today, and some training, can easily
    overrun the time of a top swimmer who competed twenty years ago.

    I would dispute that. This statement degrades the achievements of todays elite swimmers. The
    equipment makes only a very small difference to the improved times. You only have to compared the
    strokes used 20 years ago and now to see that the changes in technique will have made much more of a
    difference than any equipment.

    --
    Chris Lambert (web.trout-fish.org.ukweb.trout-fish.org.uk) Hey! It compiles! Ship it!

  11. "Duncan Heenan" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If you woould banne bodysuits, there might be one very large issue, When is the garment a body
    suit??? I can think that this is very difficult because they should wear


    something.

    Quoted message said:


    P.S. It's not "bigger, better, faster." but "Cittius, Altius, Fortius."


    Why wear anything?
    PS it's not banne, it's ban.


    Well it's in the FINA Rules,

    but I don't mind if the girls don't wear anything, perhaps it's a good way to make sure that there
    will be much more swimming on TV.

    Concordia, Libertas Freterna nos Petamus

  12. Duncan Heenan said:


    The decision by various international swimming regulators to accept body suits for competition is
    regrettable, and should be reversed for several reasons which arise from a consideration of why we
    swim and why we compete.

    Did you used to be John Heenan?

    martin

    --
    Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

  13. Duncan Heenan said:

    However, at the basis of all is the attempt to prove who is the best at the particular activity.

    I don't think that is the basis in swimming. It is probably a basis for some swimmers, but as
    swimmers reach the elite level, I think the two bases become: 1. winning the race, and 2. setting a
    record. Neither of these is meant to prove who is the best. They are both simply measurements of
    success. Maybe I'm different, but in all my years of competitive swimming, I never tried to prove I
    was the best in my events. I tried to win each race, if I had a ghost of chance, but I did not
    consider that winning proved anything. Winning and losing were just the results of the competition.
    For me the competition ended when I touched the wall, and I loved a close race, but I never thought,
    on those rare occassions when I touched out the other guy, that I had proved I was better than he
    was. I just beat him in that race, or, more often, he beat me. The race was the thing, and achiving
    a new personal best was far more rewarding to me than winning.

    Quoted message said:

    In swimming, very little equipment is actually necessary. A cap may be needed to control hair in
    the water, goggles to protect the eyes, earplugs and a nose clip for those who are vulnerable, and
    a minimal costume to respect society's sensibilities. That is the only function of the costume -
    it is not meant to improve performance, just not to hamper it. So far costumes have aimed to
    minimise their own drag in the water and thereby keep the performance of the swimmer dependent on
    their strength and technique. Even those techniques (strokes) were made as near equal as possible.

    But all of the items of the swimmer's costume do improve performance, and I disagree that they are
    not meant to improve performance. The cap certainly improves performance. Why not disallow it? Why
    not return to the days of woolen bloomers instead of nylon speedos? Goggles improve performance at
    the wall. Real men don't use them, of course.

    Quoted message said:

    Body suits are a fundamental departure in philosophy, in that they aim not just to minimise the
    costume's own drag in the water, but to reduce friction with the water below that of the
    swimmer's skin.

    ...which is exactly what the cap does, and is meant to do, for the friction caused by the hair.

    Quoted message said:

    In effect, they start to make the result depend on equipment as well as the swimmer.

    They do that, but they don't start that process. It was begun long ago, when nylon was discovered
    and plastic was made stable enough to be used to make a swimming cap.

    Quoted message said:

    If they are proved to work they will doubtless become de-rigour for top competitions, and then by
    imitation, their use will work its down the scale to club, and even school level. When the point
    is reached where everyone is wearing them the 'playing field' will be 'level' again, but at a huge
    cost to all and no competitive advantage gained, except where those who can not afford the cost
    drop out of the sport. The only winners in the process will be the costume manufactures who drive
    this trend for obvious commercial reasons.

    That is true, but I don't think it will be a big deal at the club level. In the first place, the
    effect at the lower speeds of kids will be minimal compared to the elite swimmers. I don't think
    kids will use them until they reach senior level and then only for the top level competitions like
    qualifying for national championships and beyond.

    Quoted message said:

    Even if using the body suits allows the reduction of records, what is the point of that? The
    records will not be comparable with those set not using the suits. In effect it would be like
    comparing Michael Schumaker's record with that of Fangio - utterly pointless because they had
    different equipment.

    But comparing records of people who didn't swim in the same race is kind of pointless anyway. We
    argue about who was the greatest swimmer of all time, but it doesn't mean much except that the Duke
    was actually the greatest swimmer of all time.

    Quoted message said:

    If one allows body suits, an escalation of equipment use and sophistication is inevitable in a
    world obsessed with everything always having to get bigger, better, faster.

    Can the flipper division be far behind? We can only hope.

    Quoted message said:

    A sports meet without a new record is now condemned as boring.

    Swimming meets are boring anyway. The only thing more boring than a swim meet is a cricket test, but
    they don't sell beer at swim meets.

    Quoted message said:

    A gold medal without a new record is not enough to the moguls with the money and media influence
    who control the top of sport nowadays. In this never ending search for a new record, can we expect
    to see the use of fins, webbed gloves, webs under the arms, snorkels, pointed helmets and so on?
    And what will it all prove? All too often scientists and engineers do things because they can,
    without ever stopping to think whether they should.

    You're going over the top now. Your valid point is that body suits will increase the cost of
    swimming for each swimmer. It will probably be true to some degree, but I don't think it is a
    compelling reason not to allow them, given that speedos, caps, and goggles are already approved.

    Quoted message said:

    Going back to the basics of why we swim, body suits have no place. They have to be worn
    uncomfortably tight to work, and thereby remove any pleasure from the water. They are horrendously
    expensive, liable to damage and difficult to look after.

    But, going back to the basics of why we swim, we wouldn't buy one in the first place, so the basics
    of why we swim need not influence what goes on at the top levels of competition.

    Quoted message said:

    Very sensibly, the British Long Distance Swimming Association and Channel Swimming Association
    have always resisted pressure to allow wet suits, flippers and other equipment. A dab of grease on
    the bits that rub, and otherwise being at one with the elements is an essential part of the open
    water/long distance sport, whether it is competitive, or you just want to stay the course. The
    sprint sport should be equally strong minded.

    Killjoy. I feel the need for speed.

    Quoted message said:

    Those who run our sport at the top are largely self appointed. They act as if it is their divine
    right to tell the swimming public what they must accept. However, when they are wrong we should
    tell them so. It time to reclaim our sport for the mass who do it for enjoyment, and have no
    financial motives. What happens at the Olympics today will happen at the Club tomorrow by sheer
    wannabe copycating of the weak minded, fuelled by advertising images which make us ashamed if we
    don't have all the gear they tell us we should have. Join with me in telling the ASA, FINA and
    anyone else who might listen that bodysuits are unnecessary, undesirable and for the good of the
    wider sport should be banned.

    You *are* John Heenan! I would know that shrill electronic voice anywhere.

    martin

    --
    Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
    P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

  14. Duncan Heenan said:


    The decision by various international swimming regulators to accept body suits for competition is
    regrettable, and should be reversed for several reasons which arise from a consideration of why we
    swim and why we compete.

    Incidentally, AFAIA there was no decision to "accept" body suits. I didn't think there had ever been
    a rule to prevent them.

    --
    Chris Lambert (web.trout-fish.org.ukweb.trout-fish.org.uk) Error: Sector not found -- search behind couch? (Y/N)

  15. Lets cut to the basics. Body suits are probably illegal in the true interpretation of the FINA
    rules (unless they have changed since I last looked) as they produce positively buoyancy (possibly
    up to 200m ?)

    They have been produced for one purpose, profit for the manufacturers.

    If I produced a neutrally buoyant fairing attachment for a swimmer, to produce a more hydrodynamic
    profile, would that be accepted as legal? Where do you draw the line

    Keep swimming accessible and affordable! Stuz FISTC UK

    "Duncan Heenan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The decision by various international swimming regulators to accept body suits for competition is
    regrettable, and should be reversed for several reasons which arise from a consideration of why we
    swim and why we


    compete.

    Quoted message said:


    Most people who swim regularly do not compete. They swim for the fun, fitness and the sensual
    pleasure of being weightless in the water. This applies as much to club swimmers as to 'leisure'
    swimmers. Young children


    do

    Quoted message said:

    not join swimming clubs to race, they learn the competitive spirit later, from their coaches
    and sometimes their parents. And yet the whole ethos of clubs is to push young swimmers in
    to competitions. Indeed the term 'Swimming Club' is a misnomer in many cases, because they
    are in fact


    racing

    Quoted message said:

    clubs, with little credit given to members who just want to swim.

    This is not to denigrate competition, just to put it in perspective. For those who like to compete
    - fine, do so, but ask yourself what you are doing. There is a natural competitiveness in some
    people which has led to competitions in virtually every walk of life from fishing to flower
    arranging. However, at the basis of all is the attempt to prove who is the best at the particular
    activity. Where equipment is necessary to the activity the competition becomes a split thing, such
    as in motor racing where there is a drivers' championship and a constructors championship.


    The

    Quoted message said:

    drivers compete in driving skill, and the engineers in car building.


    However

    Quoted message said:

    in many sports which need equipment, to try to return the competition to


    the

    Quoted message said:

    players, limits are set on the equipment to make for a 'level playing


    field'

    Quoted message said:

    . For example in sailing, most races are class races where boats are essentially the same and it
    is sailing skill that wins the day. In golf,


    all

    Quoted message said:

    sets of clubs are more or less the same so no-one comments much on the winners irons or woods,
    they talk about the golfers.

    In swimming, very little equipment is actually necessary. A cap may be needed to control hair in
    the water, goggles to protect the eyes, earplugs and a nose clip for those who are vulnerable, and
    a minimal costume to respect society's sensibilities. That is the only function of the


    costume -

    Quoted message said:

    it is not meant to improve performance, just not to hamper it. So far costumes have aimed to
    minimise their own drag in the water and thereby


    keep

    Quoted message said:

    the performance of the swimmer dependent on their strength and technique. Even those techniques
    (strokes) were made as near equal as possible.

    Body suits are a fundamental departure in philosophy, in that they aim not just to minimise the
    costume's own drag in the water, but to reduce


    friction

    Quoted message said:

    with the water below that of the swimmer's skin. In effect, they start to make the result depend
    on equipment as well as the swimmer. If they are proved to work they will doubtless become
    de-rigour for top competitions, and then by imitation, their use will work its down the scale to
    club, and even school level. When the point is reached where everyone is wearing


    them

    Quoted message said:

    the 'playing field' will be 'level' again, but at a huge cost to all and


    no

    Quoted message said:

    competitive advantage gained, except where those who can not afford the


    cost

    Quoted message said:

    drop out of the sport. The only winners in the process will be the costume manufactures who drive
    this trend for obvious commercial reasons.

    Even if using the body suits allows the reduction of records, what is the point of that? The
    records will not be comparable with those set not using the suits. In effect it would be like
    comparing Michael Schumaker's record with that of Fangio - utterly pointless because they had
    different equipment.

    If one allows body suits, an escalation of equipment use and


    sophistication

    Quoted message said:

    is inevitable in a world obsessed with everything always having to get bigger, better, faster. A
    sports meet without a new record is now


    condemned

    Quoted message said:

    as boring. A gold medal without a new record is not enough to the moguls with the money and media
    influence who control the top of sport nowadays.


    In

    Quoted message said:

    this never ending search for a new record, can we expect to see the use of fins, webbed gloves,
    webs under the arms, snorkels, pointed helmets and so on? And what will it all prove? All too
    often scientists and engineers do things because they can, without ever stopping to think
    whether they


    should.

    Quoted message said:


    Going back to the basics of why we swim, body suits have no place. They


    have

    Quoted message said:

    to be worn uncomfortably tight to work, and thereby remove any pleasure


    from

    Quoted message said:

    the water. They are horrendously expensive, liable to damage and difficult to look after.

    Very sensibly, the British Long Distance Swimming Association and Channel Swimming Association
    have always resisted pressure to allow wet suits, flippers and other equipment. A dab of grease on
    the bits that rub, and otherwise being at one with the elements is an essential part of the open
    water/long distance sport, whether it is competitive, or you just want to stay the course. The
    sprint sport should be equally strong minded.

    Those who run our sport at the top are largely self appointed. They act as if it is their divine
    right to tell the swimming public what they must accept. However, when they are wrong we should
    tell them so. It time to reclaim our sport for the mass who do it for enjoyment, and have no
    financial motives. What happens at the Olympics today will happen at the Club tomorrow by sheer
    wannabe copycating of the weak minded, fuelled by advertising images which make us ashamed if we
    don't have all the gear


    they

    Quoted message said:

    tell us we should have. Join with me in telling the ASA, FINA and anyone else who might listen
    that bodysuits are unnecessary, undesirable and for the good of the wider sport should be banned.

  16. Chris Lambert <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    If you just want to swim, you do not need a club. Competitive swimming clubs are there to promote
    and facilitate competitive swimming. A member of a competitive swimming club should expect to be
    pushed to achieve their best.

    That may well be true of masters swimming but is generally not the case for children's
    swimming clubs.

    My sister was a keen swimmer and joined the local swim club when we were kids but dropped out very
    quickly because she did not want to "compete", which was very much the focus of the club. That is
    still the case with most kids swim clubs that I know of.

    There is very limited scope for kids who want to swim a couple of times a week for fun & fitness, in
    structured and coached sessions, that are not oriented around "competitive" swimming. Some clubs do
    have "teen fitness squads" but the commitment is still 3+ sessions per week in the early morning.
    For younger kids, they seem to be expected to get on the treadmill & work their way up as the club
    dictates, if they want to swim with the club.

    Quoted message said:

    If body suits make such a difference, why was there such a range of equipment seen at this years
    world championships? It was not necessarily wearing body suits that were breaking records and
    winning. Don't forget that the body suits also restrict movement - there are disadvantages as well
    as advantages.

    At last year's World Masters Swimming Championships, I was interested to see the number of
    competitors wearing those hugely expensive bodysuits. It wasn't always the fastest swimmers in any
    age group, a lot of very mediocre swimmers were also wearing them. I came to the conclusion it was
    like "designer" wear for swimming competitions - a statement of your bank balance rather than
    swimming ability.

    Liz D

  17. "Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Duncan Heenan said:


    The decision by various international swimming regulators to accept body suits for competition
    is regrettable, and should be reversed for several reasons which arise from a consideration of
    why we swim and why we


    compete.

    Quoted message said:


    Did you used to be John Heenan?

    martin.

    No, sorry, I've always been Duncan. I don't think I know a John Heenan.

  18. "Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Duncan Heenan said:

    However, at the basis of all is the attempt to prove who is the best at the particular activity.

    I don't think that is the basis in swimming. It is probably a basis for some swimmers, but as
    swimmers reach the elite level, I think the two bases become: 1. winning the race, and 2. setting
    a record. Neither of these is meant to prove who is the best. They are both simply measurements of
    success. Maybe I'm different, but in all my years of competitive swimming, I never tried to prove
    I was the best in my events. I tried to win each race, if I had a ghost of chance, but I did not
    consider that winning proved anything. Winning and losing were just the results of the
    competition. For me the competition ended when I touched the wall, and I loved a close race, but I
    never thought, on those rare occassions when I touched out the other guy, that I had proved I was
    better than he was. I just beat him in that race, or, more often, he beat me. The race was the
    thing, and achiving a new personal best was far more rewarding to me than winning.

    Quoted message said:

    In swimming, very little equipment is actually necessary. A cap may be needed to control hair in
    the water, goggles to protect the eyes,


    earplugs

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and a nose clip for those who are vulnerable, and a minimal costume to respect society's
    sensibilities. That is the only function of the


    costume -

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    it is not meant to improve performance, just not to hamper it. So far costumes have aimed to
    minimise their own drag in the water and thereby


    keep

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the performance of the swimmer dependent on their strength and


    technique.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Even those techniques (strokes) were made as near equal as possible.

    But all of the items of the swimmer's costume do improve performance, and I disagree that they are
    not meant to improve performance. The cap certainly improves performance. Why not disallow it? Why
    not return to the days of woolen bloomers instead of nylon speedos? Goggles improve performance at
    the wall. Real men don't use them, of course.

    Quoted message said:

    Body suits are a fundamental departure in philosophy, in that they aim


    not

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    just to minimise the costume's own drag in the water, but to reduce


    friction

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    with the water below that of the swimmer's skin.

    ...which is exactly what the cap does, and is meant to do, for the friction caused by the hair.

    Quoted message said:

    In effect, they start to make the result depend on equipment as well as the swimmer.

    They do that, but they don't start that process. It was begun long ago, when nylon was discovered
    and plastic was made stable enough to be used to make a swimming cap.

    Quoted message said:

    If they are proved to work they will doubtless become de-rigour for top


    competitions,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and then by imitation, their use will work its down the scale to club,


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    even school level. When the point is reached where everyone is wearing


    them

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the 'playing field' will be 'level' again, but at a huge cost to all and


    no

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    competitive advantage gained, except where those who can not afford the


    cost

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    drop out of the sport. The only winners in the process will be the


    costume

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    manufactures who drive this trend for obvious commercial reasons.

    That is true, but I don't think it will be a big deal at the club level. In the first place, the
    effect at the lower speeds of kids will be minimal compared to the elite swimmers. I don't think
    kids will use them until they reach senior level and then only for the top level competitions like
    qualifying for national championships and beyond.

    Quoted message said:

    Even if using the body suits allows the reduction of records, what is


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    point of that? The records will not be comparable with those set not


    using

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the suits. In effect it would be like comparing Michael Schumaker's


    record

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    with that of Fangio - utterly pointless because they had different equipment.

    But comparing records of people who didn't swim in the same race is kind of pointless anyway. We
    argue about who was the greatest swimmer of all time, but it doesn't mean much except that the
    Duke was actually the greatest swimmer of all time.

    What, John Wayne?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If one allows body suits, an escalation of equipment use and


    sophistication

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is inevitable in a world obsessed with everything always having to get bigger, better, faster.

    Can the flipper division be far behind? We can only hope.

    Quoted message said:

    A sports meet without a new record is now condemned as boring.

    Swimming meets are boring anyway. The only thing more boring than a swim meet is a cricket test,
    but they don't sell beer at swim meets.

    For spectators yes, for the competitors less so.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    A gold medal without a new record is not enough to the moguls with the money and media influence
    who control the top of sport


    nowadays. In

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    this never ending search for a new record, can we expect to see the use


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    fins, webbed gloves, webs under the arms, snorkels, pointed helmets and


    so

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    on? And what will it all prove? All too often scientists and engineers


    do

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    things because they can, without ever stopping to think whether they


    should.

    Quoted message said:


    You're going over the top now. Your valid point is that body suits will increase the cost of
    swimming for each swimmer. It will probably be true to some degree, but I don't think it is a
    compelling reason not to allow them, given that speedos, caps, and goggles are already approved.

    Quoted message said:

    Going back to the basics of why we swim, body suits have no place. They


    have

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to be worn uncomfortably tight to work, and thereby remove any pleasure


    from

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the water. They are horrendously expensive, liable to damage and


    difficult

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    to look after.

    But, going back to the basics of why we swim, we wouldn't buy one in the first place, so the
    basics of why we swim need not influence what goes on at the top levels of competition.

    Quoted message said:

    Very sensibly, the British Long Distance Swimming Association and


    Channel

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Swimming Association have always resisted pressure to allow wet suits, flippers and other
    equipment. A dab of grease on the bits that rub, and otherwise being at one with the elements is
    an essential part of the


    open

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    water/long distance sport, whether it is competitive, or you just want


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    stay the course. The sprint sport should be equally strong minded.

    Killjoy. I feel the need for speed.

    Then stap an ourboard to your [censored]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Those who run our sport at the top are largely self appointed. They act


    as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    if it is their divine right to tell the swimming public what they must accept. However, when
    they are wrong we should tell them so. It time to reclaim our sport for the mass who do it for
    enjoyment, and have no financial motives. What happens at the Olympics today will happen at the
    Club tomorrow by sheer wannabe copycating of the weak minded, fuelled by advertising images
    which make us ashamed if we don't have all the gear


    they

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    tell us we should have. Join with me in telling the ASA, FINA and anyone else who might listen
    that bodysuits are unnecessary, undesirable and


    for

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the good of the wider sport should be banned.

    You *are* John Heenan! I would know that shrill electronic voice anywhere.

    No. And I've never heard of him, but he sounds OK from your recommendation.

    Quoted message said:

    martin

    Did you used to be Martin Smith? Many people consider him a looney.

  19. "Chris Lambert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Duncan Heenan said:


    The decision by various international swimming regulators to accept body suits for competition
    is regrettable, and should be reversed for several reasons which arise from a consideration of
    why we swim and why we compete.

    Incidentally, AFAIA there was no decision to "accept" body suits. I


    didn't

    Quoted message said:

    think there had ever been a rule to prevent them.

    See ASA and FINA rules on allowable costumes and equipment for competition.

  20. Stuart Luscombe said:

    Lets cut to the basics. Body suits are probably illegal in the true interpretation of the FINA
    rules (unless they have changed since I last looked) as they produce positively buoyancy (possibly
    up to 200m ?)

    They have been produced for one purpose, profit for the manufacturers.

    If I produced a neutrally buoyant fairing attachment for a swimmer, to produce a more hydrodynamic
    profile, would that be accepted as legal? Where do you draw the line


    Maybe in producing a bodysuit that will change the human longitudinal form (and add a little to the
    transverse part) to a hydrodynamical profile. It is well known that laminar flow requires as less
    inflexions on a curve (curves of a human body) - let's add a little fabric to some places of a suit,
    as smoother surface (no problem, reducing drag coefficient; in a body suit which has less drag
    coeff. that human skin, even when shaved) .... where is the limit ?

    Oh well, the sport meeting rules have gone to hell anyway, and they don't seem too interested
    in coming back. Anybody watched yesterday athletic meeting and the new rule about repeating
    starts ? Nice.

    Luka Djigas [email hidden] [email hidden]

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