body suits

Duncan Heenan said:

Martin, Since you appear to be unable to read what is
written, this dialogue is at an end.

ok, Dunc, but before you go, what is your actual opinion of
coaching as a profession, because I've had three swimming
coaches and one basketball coach who were hugely important
in my life as mentors, teachers, and leaders, and you
apparently had some very bad coaches, so I can't understand
your statement that coaching isn't a valid profession,
unless you were joking about that.

martin

"diablo" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Olivier" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you want to lure kids in swimming by promising them
that they will

get

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"visibility", "exposure", money, or fame, I think you
are plainly wrong.

who said anything about promising them these things?
certainly not me. do you think swimming would ever have
gotten onto all the cable news channels recently if Speedo
hadn't just released it's FSII? what do you think looks
better on televised races? swimmers in high-tech racing
suits or speedo breifs? go take a look at your local
sports store and see the variety of equipment that other
sports have. these are all little things that make
competitive swimming neat to the outsider, rather than a
sport that hasn't changed its appearence in about
oooohhh.....50 years.

Kids don't swim because they see it on TV. There is
virtually no swimming on TV! I never saw a kid swim because
of the FSII. Kids swim because because parents influence
(force?) them to do so. And parents should influence their
kids to train with the best possible sport: swimming
(reasons previously mentionned). And I don't want my
swimming kids to ask me for a FSII !

-- Olivier

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Bill Geiser" <wpgeiser(no.spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Duncan Heenan"
<[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Swimming is a leisutre activity, not a business. It
does not need to be 'viable'. That is the language of
greedy capitalism, not simple

pleasure.

Quoted message said:

"The language of greedy capitalism?" That's stretching
things just a bit, don't you think?

While the viability of the sport may not be important to
you.......it is

to

Quoted message said:

others. There are many people who depend of the
'viability' of the sport

to

Quoted message said:

provide a basic income....note - I'm not talking about a
huge income - I'm talking about earning enough to keep a
roof over your head and pay the utility bills.

The average swim coach in the US is far from wealthy -
most likely he/she needs to find a second job just to
pay the bills. I can't speak for

coaches

Quoted message said:

from other nations, but I doubt they are making much
more. These people

who

Quoted message said:

coached me in my youth....and the youth of
today.....depend on a steady stream of new swimmers to
join and stay with the sport.

I seem to recall you've been involved in swimming the
channel.....if so,

did

Quoted message said:

the guy who drove the boat while you were taking a
leisurely swim do it

for

Quoted message said:

free? How forked over the cash to pay for his time? The
gas? How about all the other people in involved? As I
said - it might be a leisure activity

for

Quoted message said:

you - for others it isn't.

So, next time you want to take your high and mighty
stance regarding

"greedy

Quoted message said:

capitalism" as it pertains to swimming.....you might
want to keep this in mind.

I paid for my channel swims out of my own earnings from a
proper job. The pilot was a fisherman, earning a bit
extra. Turning swimming in to a profession is like turning
walking or breathing in to a profession. It's not a proper
job. I can't expect professionals to agree, for obvious
financial reasons, but they should know that there are

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, is there any coach
position in any coach that you would consider 'proper?' And
if it's not too personal, and again, for my own edification
(to better understand your point,) what is your job?

- Al

I can't make it any simpler than i already have Olivier...

its about *exposure* through *any medium* ...the FSII hubbub
was an *example*...

"Olivier" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"diablo" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de -"]news:[email hidden]-
kc.rr.com...

Quoted message said:

"Olivier" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you want to lure kids in swimming by promising them
that they will

get

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"visibility", "exposure", money, or fame, I think you
are plainly

wrong.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

who said anything about promising them these things?
certainly not me.

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you think swimming would ever have gotten onto all the
cable news

channels

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

recently if Speedo hadn't just released it's FSII? what
do you think

looks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

better on televised races? swimmers in high-tech racing
suits or speedo breifs? go take a look at your local
sports store and see the variety of equipment that other
sports have. these are all little things that make
competitive swimming neat to the outsider, rather than a
sport that

hasn't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

changed its appearence in about oooohhh.....50 years.

Kids don't swim because they see it on TV. There is
virtually no swimming

on

Quoted message said:

TV! I never saw a kid swim because of the FSII. Kids swim
because because parents influence (force?) them to do so.
And parents should influence their kids to train with the
best possible sport: swimming (reasons previously
mentionned). And I don't want my swimming kids to ask me
for a FSII !

-- Olivier

"Al" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ae857c5a864ae0898978b@mayonews...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

snip<

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, next time you want to take your high and mighty
stance regarding "greedy

Quoted message said:

capitalism" as it pertains to swimming.....you might
want to keep this

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mind.

I paid for my channel swims out of my own earnings from
a proper job.

The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pilot was a fisherman, earning a bit extra. Turning
swimming in to a profession is like turning walking or
breathing

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to a profession. It's not a proper job. I can't expect
professionals to agree, for obvious financial reasons,
but they should know that there

are

Quoted message said:

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, is there any coach
position in any coach that you would consider 'proper?'

Possibly, but I haven't met one.

And if it's not too personal,

Quoted message said:

and again, for my own edification (to better understand
your point,) what is your job?

I am now retired, but I spent my working life as an
accountant then in general management in the Aluminium
industry mostly.

Now 2 questions for you; Why does that affect the argument?
What is your job?

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Olivier" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you want to lure kids in swimming by promising them
that they will get "visibility", "exposure", money, or
fame, I think you are plainly wrong.

who said anything about promising them these things?
certainly not me. do you think swimming would ever have
gotten onto all the cable news channels recently if Speedo
hadn't just released it's FSII? what do you think looks
better on televised races? swimmers in high-tech racing
suits or speedo breifs? go take a look at your local
sports store and see the variety of equipment that other
sports have. these are all little things that make
competitive swimming neat to the outsider, rather than a
sport that hasn't changed its appearence in about
oooohhh.....50 years.

I think I mostly agree with your concept that more
visibility is generally better for the sport, but for the
life of me I can't imagine somebody making a distinction
between body suits and briefs that would likely impact TV
sponsorship/coverage/interest. I guess a Madison Avenue ad
analyst could cook up something along those lines (and
maybe, sadly, that's what matters) - but it certainly would
never have occured to me. Personally I think the body suits
look horrific, but admittedly, that's just because of my
conventional (briefs) background. If I were competing today
I wouldn't hesitate to try one if I thought it might make a
difference in my performance.

- Al

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Al" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ae857c5a864ae0898978b@mayonews...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

snip<

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, next time you want to take your high and mighty
stance regarding
"greedy
> capitalism" as it pertains to swimming.....you might
> want to keep this

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> mind.

I paid for my channel swims out of my own earnings
from a proper job.

The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pilot was a fisherman, earning a bit extra. Turning
swimming in to a profession is like turning walking or
breathing

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to a profession. It's not a proper job. I can't expect
professionals to agree, for obvious financial reasons,
but they should know that there

are

Quoted message said:

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, is there any coach
position in any coach that you would consider 'proper?'

Possibly, but I haven't met one.

And if it's not too personal,

Quoted message said:

and again, for my own edification (to better understand
your point,) what is your job?

I am now retired, but I spent my working life as an
accountant then in general management in the Aluminium
industry mostly.

Now 2 questions for you; Why does that affect the
argument? What is your job?

Thanks. I wanted to know your job so I could get a better
idea of what would fall in the "proper" category as you
understand it - on the assumption that you would consider
your own (former)job proper, which I'm sure you do.

So along those lines, how do you distinguish between
accounting and coaching swimming? Swimming coaches are
indeed extraneous for folks that have no interest in
swimming more efficiently, but are a viable option for
people that enjoy swimming more by swimming more efficiently
and don't have the wherewithal to implement stroke
improvements on their own. The same can be said for
accounting I would think - for people that seek to run a
company more efficiently, an accountant is an option
- but then again, I would assume that people at large
generally have access to all the same books as accountants
and might prefer to struggle along with the accounting on
their own (probably to their detriment.) But that doesn't
make the accounting profession any less proper. So I might
have missed your point about coaches - let me know if
that's the case.

As for my job, well, that's too personal :-). I was (in this
order) a lifeguard, a courtroom artist, a B-52 Navigator,
and finally a computer programmer. In hindsight, some of
those occupations were more proper than others :-).

I do believe that generally there are far too many folks
riding on the coat tails of athletes, particularly in the
Olympics - but I don't regard coaches as being among them.

Thanks for sharing your info, and congrats on your
retirement!

- Al

Al said:

Personally I think the body suits look horrific,

Just wait 'til they have "Granola" and "Gatorade" plastered
all over them.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

Sorry for my english...
M. Heenan Like in everything, there is good and bad coaches.
But the difference in your situation is the message that
you receive always seems to be negative. One can
questionned. I don't feel the way you describe coaches.
As a coach, I certainly do mistakes, but the only ones
who don't do mistakes are the ones who do nothing. And i
know what is Vo2max... I coach about winning, as well
achieve a 25meter underwater, as well a first provincial
standard, as well the first time a kid put his face in
the water. There is something great about winning and
coming back home with this little smile on your face that
turn your day in a dream come true. I just don't agree
with your comment, it'snot funny, and please, for the
future, there is a way to write publicly. Martin Cléroult

"Duncan Heenan" <[email hidden]> a
écrit dans le message de news:407846f7_1@mk-nntp-
2.news.uk.tiscali.com...

Quoted message said:

"Bill Geiser" <wpgeiser(no.spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Duncan Heenan"
<[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Turning swimming in to a profession is like turning
walking or

breathing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

to a profession. It's not a proper job. I can't expect
professionals

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

agree, for obvious financial reasons, but they should
know that there

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

plenty of amateurs like me who view them mostly as
hangers on, and

largely

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

unnecessary.

So, based on your statement above - being a professional
swim instructor &/or swim coach is not considered to be
a 'proper job'.....you must be kidding!

If not, who died and left you King?

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to list those jobs you do
consider 'proper'

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the rest of us can do some much-needed career
planning........

A real job is one which has intrinsic value. In my view
teaching swimming does, coaching does not. Here are some
thoughts based on my experience of coaches

When I was small, I used to think that a coach (used in
England to also

mean

Quoted message said:

'bus', for US readers) was a large thing with four wheels
which was

smelly

Quoted message said:

and belched out smoke, took you all over the country, cost
a lot and made you sick. Since I have grown up (in body at
least), I realise I was wrong about the four wheels. I
know full well that it is probably a career termination
move to take a swipe at coaches in their own journal, but
having been their victim for so many years, and with so
little to show for it, I just can't resist it.

First

Quoted message said:

let's define our terms. A teacher is someone who takes a
non-swimmer and convinces them that they can swim, whereas
a coach is someone who takes a swimmer and convinces them
that they can't.

I am of course properly qualified to comment on coaches,
having never been one. You may think this strange logic,
but it is every bit as logical as

the

Quoted message said:

convention which seems to debar coaches from ever
swimming. Unfair accusation? Well, when did you last see
your coach in the water? There are

a

Quoted message said:

few exceptions of course, like the coach I once had who
had competed in 3 Olympics and even had a bronze medal to
show for it - but I call that showing off. No. Mostly,
coaches plead that they have no time to swim themselves,
thereby avoiding ever being rumbled as non-swimmers. The
magic words 'do what I say, not what I do' maintains their
authority in the face of any swimmer who may question it.
Take it from me, coaches can't swim.

The

Quoted message said:

ones who will write to Swimming Times incandescent with
'letter rage', are of course rare exceptions to this
otherwise universal truth. [applies

also

Quoted message said:

to those who post on this group].

Viewing these authority figures goose-stepping about on
the poolside from the water, the poor swimmer is on a
psychological hiding to nothing. They tower over you and
make you feel like a primary school kid again. This
particular form of intimidation only works however if they
dress for the part. I recall the loss of dignity to one
lady coach who, on her way to a barn dance, turned up in a
skirt, only to have her undies thoroughly appraised by the
below-foot-level swimmers. Perhaps that's why they're so
wedded to their track suits. There is no logic to wearing
a track suit - none of them ever goes near a track- but
they mostly do, don't they? Especially when travelling,
the track suit is the uniform which lifts them above
normal mortals. I suppose too, they think it looks racy
and hints at

a

Quoted message said:

prowess that they are too modest to disclose.

To call all coaches closet Nazis would be unfair. I heard
of one who

wasn't

Quoted message said:

( - he was thrown out of the Nazi party for cruelty).
However, the power which accompanies the job has to be one
of their main turn-ons. As well as enabling them always to
nick the front seat in the bus on the way to

galas,

Quoted message said:

this can easily lead to a sadism second only to that of a
Parking Warden. The setting of exercises is a field day
for their love of others'

suffering.

Quoted message said:

I once laboured under a coach who was so obsessed with 'throw-
overs' and 'catch-ups', that we re-named them 'catch-overs
and throw-ups', with good reason. On one occasion I recall
the pool had to be cleared because of the after effects of
this nauseating (sic) exercise. IM's stood for Individual
Maladies in our club. Also, I wonder if coaches carry on
shouting when

they

Quoted message said:

get home? It can become a bit embarrassing outside the
pool, especially

when

Quoted message said:

she shouts across the pub that she didn't recognise you
with your clothes on. Leastways, I told my wife she was
the coach.

To add mystique to this control freaky, many coaches also
become equipment junkies. These ones think of all sorts of
extra kit their swimmers should have. We had a coach once
who had acquired a job lot of heart rate

monitors

Quoted message said:

and insisted we use them. The sensor was supposedly held
on by a thing resembling a twisted bra. The men, being
used only to handling bras on the people for whom they
were designed, could not get the hang of this.
Consequently the damn things slipped, and most of the men
were pronounced dead after 400 metres, as the sensors
could find no pulse in their backsides. My vast belly
stopped mine slipping, but I was nevertheless condemned
by the coach for not trying, as my heart rate actually
slowed as

I

Quoted message said:

started swimming, in recovery from the effort of putting
on the bra. You could say I got the booby prize.
Incidentally, the best electronic

training

Quoted message said:

aid I have come across was a simple video camera. At least
seeing myself

in

Quoted message said:

action gave me some slight sympathy for the hosts of
coaches who have

given

Quoted message said:

up on me.

Jargon comes close to equipment in coaches' affection.
Don't be bamboozled in to thinking they know what it means
though. Make them explain. Once, overhearing a coach going
on about a VO2 max, I called for an explanation and was
told that it was a milder version of VO5 shampoo. The same
coach told me that aerobic exercise was a warm up done
with your dressing gown

on.

Quoted message said:

A coach is a professional critic, which explains in part
why I love them about equally with literary critics and
haemorrhoids. I shall however

prove

Quoted message said:

with this short article that they can not themselves take
criticism from swimmers. Now you've heard it I await your
response. Coaches who write in complaining that I am wrong
will prove my point. Those who write in

agreeing

Quoted message said:

also prove my point. Those who say nothing allow my
point to go

unchallenged

Quoted message said:

by their silence. This self justifying argument is based
on the same logic which allows the coaches always to be
right about my training. They say

"do

Quoted message said:

what I say,

Heenan, and you will improve.". I do, and I don't improve.
So they say

"you

Quoted message said:

didn't do what I said, or else not well enough." See what
I mean? When did your coach ever say , "oops, sorry! I got
that wrong."

Much of the jaundice in my view comes, of course, from
being a straight cross of those two least of tameable
breeds - the master swimmer and the open water swimmer.
Master swimmers have all 'been there, done it' - and

got

Quoted message said:

not only the tee shirt but the truss as well. Once Prime
Ministers start being younger than you, there's nothing
much anyone can tell you. We were swimming before Pontius
Pilate even started his flying lessons, after all. As for
open water swimmers, we're all a bit weird anyway;
brainwashed

from

Quoted message said:

the hours of sensory deprivation. We're so practised in
the masochism necessary for our branch of the sport that
we need no sadist on the

poolside

Quoted message said:

to help us. At best we will trade insults with some poor
devil stuck for hours in a rowing boat, with blistered
hands, freezing cold and dying for

a

Quoted message said:

loo. Add to this already powerful combination of
delinquency a naturally stroppy nature, and you can see
why coaches leave me alone nowadays.

Anyway,

Quoted message said:

one thing's for certain I shall never be allowed to become
a coach if this article ever gets published, so now you
can all breath a sigh of relief.

© Duncan HeenanDecember 1998

Published in Swimming Times December 1999

I await the wrath of coaches, proving that they have no
sense of humour (though I think they've already
demonstrated that).

"Al" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:MPG.1aea0e5be17f56bc98978d@mayonews...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Al" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ae857c5a864ae0898978b@mayonews...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

snip<

Quoted message said:

> So, next time you want to take your high and mighty
> stance

regarding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "greedy
> > capitalism" as it pertains to swimming.....you
> > might want to keep

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

> > mind.
>
> I paid for my channel swims out of my own earnings
> from a proper

job.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The

Quoted message said:

> pilot was a fisherman, earning a bit extra. Turning
> swimming in to a profession is like turning walking
> or

breathing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

> to a profession. It's not a proper job. I can't
> expect professionals

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> agree, for obvious financial reasons, but they
> should know that

there

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are

Quoted message said:

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, is there any coach
position in any coach that you would consider
'proper?'

Possibly, but I haven't met one.

And if it's not too personal,

Quoted message said:

and again, for my own edification (to better
understand your point,) what is your job?

I am now retired, but I spent my working life as an
accountant then in general management in the Aluminium
industry mostly.

Now 2 questions for you; Why does that affect the
argument? What is your job?

Thanks. I wanted to know your job so I could get a better
idea of what would fall in the "proper" category as you
understand it - on the assumption that you would consider
your own (former)job proper, which I'm sure you do.

Only part of what I did. Part was wage slavery which did not
increase the sum total of human happiness. But that's
irreleveant to this debate, as is much of what follows.

Quoted message said:

So along those lines, how do you distinguish between
accounting and coaching swimming? Swimming coaches are
indeed extraneous for folks that have no interest in
swimming more efficiently, but are a viable option for
people that enjoy swimming more by swimming more
efficiently and don't have the wherewithal to implement
stroke improvements on their own. The same can be said for
accounting I would think - for people that seek to run a
company more efficiently, an accountant is an option
- but then again, I would assume that people at large
generally have access to all the same books as
accountants and might prefer to struggle along with the
accounting on their own (probably to their detriment.)
But that doesn't make the accounting profession any less
proper. So I might have missed your point about coaches
- let me know if that's the case.

You have.

Quoted message said:

As for my job, well, that's too personal :-).

But it was OK to ask me, eh? Discussion over.

I was (in this order) a

Quoted message said:

lifeguard, a courtroom artist, a B-52 Navigator, and
finally a computer programmer. In hindsight, some of those
occupations were more proper than others :-).

I do believe that generally there are far too many folks
riding on the coat tails of athletes, particularly in the
Olympics - but I don't regard coaches as being among them.

Thanks for sharing your info, and congrats on your
retirement!

- Al

"martin cléroult" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sorry for my english...
M. Heenan Like in everything, there is good and bad
coaches. But the difference in your situation is the
message that you receive

always

Quoted message said:

seems to be negative. One can questionned. I don't feel
the way you describe coaches. As a coach, I certainly do
mistakes, but the only ones who don't do mistakes are
the ones who do nothing. And i know what is Vo2max... I
coach about winning, as well achieve a 25meter
underwater, as well a

first

Quoted message said:

provincial standard, as well the first time a kid put his
face in the

water.

Quoted message said:

There is something great about winning and coming back
home with this

little

Quoted message said:

smile on your face that turn your day in a dream come
true. I just don't agree with your comment, it'snot funny,
and please, for the future, there is a way to write
publicly. Martin Cléroult

Clearly my attempt at irony and humour didn't translate. I
apologise.

Duncan Heenan said:

Discussion over.

Are you going to explain whether you think coaching is a
legitimate profession or not, and if not, why not?
...because you haven't yet.

martin

Duncan Heenan said:

"martin cléroult" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sorry for my english...
M. Heenan Like in everything, there is good and bad
coaches. But the difference in your situation is the
message that you receive

always

Quoted message said:

seems to be negative. One can questionned. I don't feel
the way you describe coaches. As a coach, I certainly do
mistakes, but the only ones who don't do mistakes are
the ones who do nothing. And i know what is Vo2max... I
coach about winning, as well achieve a 25meter
underwater, as well a

first

Quoted message said:

provincial standard, as well the first time a kid put his
face in the

water.

Quoted message said:

There is something great about winning and coming back
home with this

little

Quoted message said:

smile on your face that turn your day in a dream come
true. I just don't agree with your comment, it'snot
funny, and please, for the future, there is a way to
write publicly. Martin Cléroult

Clearly my attempt at irony and humour didn't translate. I
apologise.

It didn't work in English either.

martin

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for my job, well, that's too personal :-).

But it was OK to ask me, eh? Discussion over.

I would like to think that since I went on to explain
about the jobs I had that you would realize I wasn't
serious. Oh well.

Quoted message said:

I was (in this order) a

Quoted message said:

lifeguard, a courtroom artist, a B-52 Navigator, and
finally a computer programmer. In hindsight, some of
those occupations were more proper than others :-).

I do believe that generally there are far too many
folks riding on the coat tails of athletes,
particularly in the Olympics - but I don't regard
coaches as being among them.

Thanks for sharing your info, and congrats on your
retirement!

- Al

I find these "purity of the sport" arguments very
entertaining.

The horrors of society for changing the sport as they see
fit with no regard for those who dedicate their lives to the
pursuit... Please spare me the tears.

I believe your point is a good one - that the fastskin
suits supposedly reduce the participants own friction and
because of it should not be compared to previous world
records. Okay so be it.

Personally I think there is an inherent understanding that a
world record is a measurement of the era the record was
generated - not necessarily the person behind the record.
Look at how we talk about it. "What is the current world
record in the 100 butterfly?" It's not "who holds the
current world record?". When you scan a list of records what
do you look at. Times and dates. Then maybe the names.

I find your argument about science hollow. Maybe you mean
something deeper, but I question your claims that scientist
would be more socially responsible if they didn't fall
victim to the evils of hydrodynamic research.

To be the Devil's advocate, where exactly is the line? I
mean is nutrition research too much. How about using
waveless pools? What about using heart rate monitors during
training? For that matter what about keeping track of your
hear rate with out a HR monitor?

Even in your beloved long distance open water events -
where "just a dab" of ointment to prevent chaffing - what
if I need two dabs? Would that be okay? No I mean two big
dabs - one to cover each knee - I get "chaffed" there. What
if Joan needs to cover her body - to prevent the chaffing -
will that be okay? Well since you allowing petroleum
products, can I use something that might be a little
"slicker"? And does your nose plug attaches to your ear
plug? Because there is a guy over there who is wearing a
single nose, ear, eye piece.

The "high cost" that we all pay - does not exist. I mean I
can't believe you of all people would ever buy a fastskin
suit - and there are others who won't either. The advantage
these suits create are minimal, well potentially huge where
hundreds of seconds count, but at the local swim club times
are off by seconds. So yeah, there will be the rich kid on
the block who has an "unfair" advantage - but the advantage
will be immeasurable at that level. Will others want to
emulate him, or their stars? Well yes if there is excitement
around the sport. If there is no excitement left then the
sport dies - I mean who watches/plays squash anymore? Seems
to me that is a much higher price to pay.

-CF

"Duncan Heenan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
kc.rr.com...

Quoted message said:

"Duncan Heenan"
<[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Swimming is a leisutre activity, not a business. It
does not need to be 'viable'. That is the language of
greedy capitalism, not simple

pleasure.

Quoted message said:

No, Duncan, Swimming *to you* is a leisure activity. To
others its a sport and a profession.

Yes, and it is they - the money grubbers - who are
spoiling it for the many, like me, who just do it because
we like it.

How in the world is it being spoiled for you? If you're
swimming "leisurely" then can buy $10 swim "trunks" and $5
goggles and wait for the local pond to open up. Or go to
most "Ys" which typically have water temperature at 82-85
and only have "lap swimming" for a limited time during the
day. Your world of swimming and the competitive world of
swimming don't overlap - ever. So I am sitting here
dumfounded on how you could possibly have your leisure
time spoiled.

-CF

"Duncan Heenan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dude you're one messed up individual. I've never had a coach
in all my years of sports - (swimming, running, (American)
football, basketball, baseball, soccer (football),
weightlifting, volleyball, and yes, I even have a business
coach) ever belittle me or make me feel otherwise worthless.

You are correct. A "teacher" teaches you proper technique. A
coach is someone with a gift - they have the ability to help
you find yourself - to reach down get more out of your body,
mind, soul, than you ever thought possible.

If you've never experienced a real coach then you truly have
missed out - and it explains your pent-up hostilities. A
coach is not a drill sergeant, nor are they a personal
assistant. They are there to help your mind discover and
accept what your body is capable of doing.

All of my coaches have been active in the sports (and
business) that they coached in, and I wouldn't dream of
selecting a coach that wasn't.

By the way. I'm not a coach.

-CF

In article <3Xaic.16584$S42.13639@lakeread03>,

ChronoFish said:

Dude you're one messed up individual. I've never had a
coach in all my years of sports - (swimming, running,
(American) football, basketball, baseball, soccer
(football), weightlifting, volleyball, and yes, I even
have a business coach) ever belittle me or make me feel
otherwise worthless.

Just to jump in for a sec...

Gee, you've lived a blessed life. I think, in my limited
experience with high school coaches and PE instructors
many years ago, that I usually wound up with the drill
sergeant type.

I recall one good one, though. The one who made me feel good
about being on the swim team was the school's band teacher.
He volunteered to act as the swim coach one year when the
school didn't have a regular coach. Unfortunately, his
swimming knowledge wasn't much better than mine. He coached
with Councilman's book in one hand.

Ross

"ChronoFish" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3Xaic.16584$S42.13639@lakeread03...

Quoted message said:

"Duncan Heenan" <[email hidden]>
wrote in

message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dude you're one messed up individual. I've never had a
coach in all my

years of sports - (swimming, running, (American) football,

Quoted message said:

basketball, baseball, soccer (football), weightlifting,
volleyball, and

yes, I even have a business coach) ever belittle me or make

Quoted message said:

me feel otherwise worthless.

You are correct. A "teacher" teaches you proper technique.
A coach is

someone with a gift - they have the ability to help you find

Quoted message said:

yourself - to reach down get more out of your body, mind,
soul, than you

ever thought possible.

Quoted message said:

If you've never experienced a real coach then you truly
have missed out -

and it explains your pent-up hostilities. A coach is not

Quoted message said:

a drill sergeant, nor are they a personal assistant. They
are there to

help your mind discover and accept what your body is capable

Quoted message said:

of doing.

All of my coaches have been active in the sports (and
business) that they

coached in, and I wouldn't dream of selecting a coach that

Quoted message said:

wasn't.

By the way. I'm not a coach.

-CF

Of course you don't see through them. You've fallen for the
Coaches' patter, that's all. It's the American way......

Quoted message said:

Hm, still no experiences from users. Just a discussion
about banning them

or

Quoted message said:

not and the use of coaches. Banning suits would be stupid
in my opinion. Let there be freedom!! Or you should ban
everythging that isn't available to everybody, like

books

Quoted message said:

on training, supplements, etc.

Fred

Well, adding a propeller on your ass is available to
everyone if someone made it. Should that be ok as well?

Curt