Bobby does it again !

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Giro COURSE was certainly first rate. But the pace was MUCH slower
with riders saying that for most of the race they were riding at a
touring pace and not a racing pace.

Same example: Tour 1972 average speed 35,71 km/h; Giro 1972 36,12 km/h.

Benjo Maso

benjo maso said:

"Gabe Brovedani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

Quoted message said:

Kelly for all of his power and speed and grace just wasn't a man for
grand tours. When Kelly won the Vuelta it was NOTHING like it is today.
Since about '85 the Vuelta and the Giro have been getting progressively
harder until now they're only one step below the Tour in difficulty. And
they probably have at least one stage in each that are HARDER than any
Tour stage save for distance.

How many steps below the Tour were they before, just above Paris-Nice?

The Giro was already in the 1970's as hard or almost as hard as the Tour.
See for instance 1972: Tour 3846 km with five climbs higher than 2000m and
the Giro 3725 km with six climbs higher than 2000m. The Vuelta is quite
another matter, especially because its status was much lower than the Giro
or the Tour and the direction was usually prepared to go to great lenght to
persuade one or two topriders to participate. But but from the moment he had
become a star, they couldn't even convince Induráin.

Benjo

I think you're only going to confuse Mr. Kunich with facts. Lance never
raced the Giro, so it is a few steps below the Tour.

I wonder how much harder it got after Hampsten won. I remember some
bad weather when Hampsten clinched the maglia rosa, but nothing as
difficult as the heat of France in July, of course. Then again, with
all that snow, they were going really slow - not much of a race really.

Gabe Brovedani

Tom Kunich said:

Err Kelly finished fourth and so he was a contender? Last year
Francisco Mancebo finished fourth. Do you consider him a contender?

Leipheimer never made it to the top-5 at the Tour and this year he is
considered as one of the main tour contenders; (however a step lower
than JU and IB). According to many even Georgie has a chance and he
never ended in the top 10.
If a guy who ended 4th isn't even considered as a contender, then who
is? And what if he Kelly did it the Armstrong-way: focus on the Tour,
35 race days a year. Don't you think he could make it to the podium
then?

Kenny

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kenny said:

Tom Kunich said:

Err Kelly finished fourth and so he was a contender? Last year
Francisco Mancebo finished fourth. Do you consider him a contender?

Leipheimer never made it to the top-5 at the Tour and this year he is
considered as one of the main tour contenders; (however a step lower
than JU and IB). According to many even Georgie has a chance and he
never ended in the top 10.
If a guy who ended 4th isn't even considered as a contender, then who
is? And what if he Kelly did it the Armstrong-way: focus on the Tour,
35 race days a year. Don't you think he could make it to the podium
then?

Kenny

Obviously a rider's chances as a "contender" change year to year, based on
several factors (who's racing, the course, etc.) As for Boonen being one for a
GT win, I don't think it'll happen based on comments he's made regarding how
long he thinks he'll be racing. He'd need to do a lot of work to change several
aspects of his riding, and I don't think he has time to effectively do that
before he quits racing (assuming he finishes when he said he thinks he will).

--
tanx,
Howard

Grandma Smith said a curious thing
Boys must whistle, girls must sing

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Howard Kveck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kenny said:

Tom Kunich said:

Err Kelly finished fourth and so he was a contender? Last year
Francisco Mancebo finished fourth. Do you consider him a contender?

Leipheimer never made it to the top-5 at the Tour and this year he is
considered as one of the main tour contenders; (however a step lower
than JU and IB). According to many even Georgie has a chance and he
never ended in the top 10.
If a guy who ended 4th isn't even considered as a contender, then who
is? And what if he Kelly did it the Armstrong-way: focus on the Tour,
35 race days a year. Don't you think he could make it to the podium
then?

Kenny

Obviously a rider's chances as a "contender" change year to year, based on
several factors (who's racing, the course, etc.) As for Boonen being one for a
GT win, I don't think it'll happen based on comments he's made regarding how
long he thinks he'll be racing. He'd need to do a lot of work to change several
aspects of his riding, and I don't think he has time to effectively do that
before he quits racing (assuming he finishes when he said he thinks he will).

I was talking about Kelly, not Boonen. Boonen will never ride a good
classement general in a GT. Everybody should know that. I think he is
smart enough to continue doing what he's good at right now: classics.
The only evolution i expect him to make is winning less bunch sprints
but becoming competitive in Liege or Lombardy and maybe a 1-week stage
race like the Tirreno.

Kenny said:

I was talking about Kelly, not Boonen. Boonen will never ride a good
classement general in a GT. Everybody should know that. I think he is
smart enough to continue doing what he's good at right now: classics.
The only evolution i expect him to make is winning less bunch sprints
but becoming competitive in Liege or Lombardy and maybe a 1-week stage
race like the Tirreno.

Yes, that seems within Boonen's reach. Van Petegem was a contender in
Paris-Nice once.

JT

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quote='Kenny'Howard Kveck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kenny said:

Tom Kunich said:

Err Kelly finished fourth and so he was a contender? Last year
Francisco Mancebo finished fourth. Do you consider him a contender?

Leipheimer never made it to the top-5 at the Tour and this year he is
considered as one of the main tour contenders; (however a step lower
than JU and IB). According to many even Georgie has a chance and he
never ended in the top 10.
If a guy who ended 4th isn't even considered as a contender, then who
is? And what if he Kelly did it the Armstrong-way: focus on the Tour,
35 race days a year. Don't you think he could make it to the podium
then?

Kenny

Obviously a rider's chances as a "contender" change year to year, based on
several factors (who's racing, the course, etc.) As for Boonen being one for a
GT win, I don't think it'll happen based on comments he's made regarding how
long he thinks he'll be racing. He'd need to do a lot of work to change several
aspects of his riding, and I don't think he has time to effectively do that
before he quits racing (assuming he finishes when he said he thinks he will).

I was talking about Kelly, not Boonen. Boonen will never ride a good
classement general in a GT. Everybody should know that. I think he is
smart enough to continue doing what he's good at right now: classics.
The only evolution i expect him to make is winning less bunch sprints
but becoming competitive in Liege or Lombardy and maybe a 1-week stage
race like the Tirreno.[/QUOTE]

You expect Boonen to waste his time so that he could win a garbage one week race?

Why less bunch sprints? He has gotten better at it recently. Sprinters get better with age. To a point of course.

I don't have a citation on this but I recall one of Boonen's Directors/Coaches saying that they thought he could challenge for a GC in a few years if he focused. To be honest he is very young and could change his body a lot. That said there are a lot of parcours that he could never win on like the Giro this year, but if he lost a little weight, got in the wind tunnel and had an awesome team he could win a Tour on a course like this one. I really don't think Boonen is that different physically then Jan. Although he will probably stick to winning Classics/WC he might get kinda bored when he is 29 and has won more Flanders and PRs then anyone ever has (3 for each).

I like watching every break get rolled up in the last kilometer.

Ron[/QUOTE]

Its not just the radios but also better team organization and parcours... If the tour had finishes like the giro then we would see more exciting stages. I think its good when good riders win whether thats the sprinters, or the classics type guys like Bettini and DiLuca at the Giro.

As far as I'm concerned seeing Dider Rous win a stage on Bastille day is not exciting.

Without radios I think the teams Milram, Lotto, and QS would just control the races even more on clear sprinters stages.

lazysegall said:

You expect Boonen to waste his time so that he could win a garbage one
week race?

Why less bunch sprints? He has gotten better at it recently.
Sprinters get better with age. To a point of course.

I don't have a citation on this but I recall one of Boonen's
Directors/Coaches saying that they thought he could challenge for a GC
in a few years if he focused. To be honest he is very young and could
change his body a lot. That said there are a lot of parcours that he
could never win on like the Giro this year, but if he lost a little
weight, got in the wind tunnel and had an awesome team he could win a
Tour on a course like this one. I really don't think Boonen is that
different physically then Jan. Although he will probably stick to
winning Classics/WC he might get kinda bored when he is 29 and has won
more Flanders and PRs then anyone ever has (3 for each).

In PN QuickStep really doesn't have the team to go for a GC win, nor
did they intend to, aiming for a win or two for TB, and this they have
already achieved. Also they wanted to give some of the younger riders
some experience and this seems to be working quite well.

Whilst they don't get much of a mention in the Press, the team are
working like dogs to make sure TB is where he ought to be in the final
klicks and in this they have been very successful

And as for the Giro, the strategy will probably be to showcase the
Italian squad members like the one cleaning up currently in the Due
Mare over in SpaghettiReich

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Kenny said:

I was talking about Kelly, not Boonen. Boonen will never ride a good
classement general in a GT. Everybody should know that. I think he is
smart enough to continue doing what he's good at right now: classics.
The only evolution i expect him to make is winning less bunch sprints
but becoming competitive in Liege or Lombardy and maybe a 1-week stage
race like the Tirreno.

I think he can become that little bit more competetive in races like Liege
and Lombardy without losing too much of what he has going for him now. But I
don't think he'd be bothered with worrying about winning a race like Tirreno
overall.

--
tanx,
Howard

Grandma Smith said a curious thing
Boys must whistle, girls must sing

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

lazysegall said:

Kenny said:

I was talking about Kelly, not Boonen. Boonen will never ride a good
classement general in a GT. Everybody should know that. I think he
is
smart enough to continue doing what he's good at right now: classics.
The only evolution i expect him to make is winning less bunch sprints
but becoming competitive in Liege or Lombardy and maybe a 1-week stage
race like the Tirreno.

You expect Boonen to waste his time so that he could win a garbage one
week race?

Since when is Paris-Nice or Tirreno-Adriatico a garbage race? Check
out the list of winners.

Quoted message said:

Why less bunch sprints? He has gotten better at it recently.
Sprinters get better with age. To a point of course.

1. When you have the ability to win 260km classics solo, i think the
choice is easily made. You're not going to take enormous risks in
bunch sprint as a preperation for a classic.
2. Getting older also means you start to fear the dangers and risks of
a bunch sprint
3. He's only 25 but he already said this week that winning stages in a
bunch sprint isn't really giving him a kick anymore.
4. There is a certain example called Johan Museeuw.
5. There is a certain DS called Patrick Lefevere who would be very glad
if he could walk the same path with Boonen as he did with Museeuw

Quoted message said:

I don't have a citation on this but I recall one of Boonen's
Directors/Coaches saying that they thought he could challenge for a GC
in a few years if he focused. To be honest he is very young and could
change his body a lot. That said there are a lot of parcours that he
could never win on like the Giro this year, but if he lost a little
weight, got in the wind tunnel and had an awesome team he could win a
Tour on a course like this one. I really don't think Boonen is that
different physically then Jan. Although he will probably stick to
winning Classics/WC he might get kinda bored when he is 29 and has won
more Flanders and PRs then anyone ever has (3 for each).

I'll bet a €100000 he'll never prepare only to ride a good GC at the
Tour. He isn't in the right team for that. And there is no pressure
at all from the fans or the press to change into a GC rider. Belgium
has always dominated the classics and the WC. We should keep that in
mind and not start to dream about a future Tour winner. (We kinda did
that with VDB). With the typical atmosphere hanging around the week of
RVV and PR, i don't think a rider will ever get tired of that. And
it's always fun to see how Roger De Vlaeminck gets nervous as riders
adds another PR win to his list. Boonen still has 3 PR's to go
however.

Kenny

Since when is Paris-Nice or Tirreno-Adriatico a garbage race? Check
out the list of winners.

Quoted message said:

Why less bunch sprints? He has gotten better at it recently.
Sprinters get better with age. To a point of course.

1. When you have the ability to win 260km classics solo, i think the
choice is easily made. You're not going to take enormous risks in
bunch sprint as a preperation for a classic.
2. Getting older also means you start to fear the dangers and risks of
a bunch sprint
3. He's only 25 but he already said this week that winning stages in a
bunch sprint isn't really giving him a kick anymore.
4. There is a certain example called Johan Museeuw.
5. There is a certain DS called Patrick Lefevere who would be very glad
if he could walk the same path with Boonen as he did with Museeuw

A good list of winners doesn't make a race that important to win. I think that in a given year only 2-3 people go to Paris Nice TA to win. I don't think boonen would risk his MSR, Flanders, PR chances by stretching himself in these races, ever.

I'll bet a €100000 he'll never prepare only to ride a good GC at the
Tour. He isn't in the right team for that. And there is no pressure
at all from the fans or the press to change into a GC rider. Belgium
has always dominated the classics and the WC. We should keep that in
mind and not start to dream about a future Tour winner. (We kinda did
that with VDB). With the typical atmosphere hanging around the week of
RVV and PR, i don't think a rider will ever get tired of that. And
it's always fun to see how Roger De Vlaeminck gets nervous as riders
adds another PR win to his list. Boonen still has 3 PR's to go
however.

Kenny[/QUOTE]

You may be right that he will never try to win GC. I wouldn't consdier the team the problem. I don't think that boonen will gain GC aspirations for at least 3 years and I think that QS would move mountains to help boonen do anything he wanted.

lazysegall said:

You may be right that he will never try to win GC. I wouldn't consdier
the team the problem. I don't think that boonen will gain GC aspirations
for at least 3 years and I think that QS would move mountains to help
boonen do anything he wanted.

Moving mountains is precisely what would be required.

Are you going to be surprised that the top ten are Basso, Ullrich,
Landis, Valverde, Cunego, Vino, etc?

The question seemed to be whether Kelly was a contender and I don't
think that he or anyone else ever seriously considered him a Grand Tour
contender if the big dogs were running.

Tom Kunich said:

Are you going to be surprised that the top ten are Basso, Ullrich,
Landis, Valverde, Cunego, Vino, etc?

The question seemed to be whether Kelly was a contender and I don't
think that he or anyone else ever seriously considered him a Grand Tour
contender if the big dogs were running.

I have him pegged as my favorite for the 1988 Vuelta. Remember, you heard it here
first!

Dan