Blood doping "Fuentes style" explained ?

The Doctor doesn't boost RBC of the blood, he just puts it
back in the athlete and that increases RBC.

http://www.uihealthcare.com/topics/sportsmedicine/spor3322.html

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Since it has caused the demise of one of the best cyclists of the past
10 yeas, might be time to put this to bed.
Anyone got a good link for that ?
I'm assuming that the idea behind this mad doctor's "work" is to
increase the RBC count.The cheaters used to do it with EPO but now EPO
can be detected.
Question is, how did the good doctor boost the RBC in the blood he
took without leaving any traces ? Some kind of "filtering" maybe ?

Keith said:

Quoted message said:

Since it has caused the demise of one of the best cyclists of the past
10 yeas, might be time to put this to bed.
Anyone got a good link for that ?
I'm assuming that the idea behind this mad doctor's "work" is to
increase the RBC count.The cheaters used to do it with EPO but now EPO
can be detected.
Question is, how did the good doctor boost the RBC in the blood he
took without leaving any traces ? Some kind of "filtering" maybe ?

Matt C said:

The Doctor doesn't boost RBC of the blood, he just puts it
back in the athlete and that increases RBC.

http://www.uihealthcare.com/topics/sportsmedicine/spor3322.html

And he's not a mad doctor, just an old fashioned capitalist catering to
the laws of supply and demand.

Oops I mentioned capitalism, I hope greg has his blueberry switched off.

Keith said:

Since it has caused the demise of one of the best cyclists of the past
10 yeas, might be time to put this to bed.
Anyone got a good link for that ?
I'm assuming that the idea behind this mad doctor's "work" is to
increase the RBC count.The cheaters used to do it with EPO but now EPO
can be detected.
Question is, how did the good doctor boost the RBC in the blood he
took without leaving any traces ? Some kind of "filtering" maybe ?

keep looking. did you see the calendar for Tyler Hamilton for 2003 as
published in that newspaper? Basically do epo for two weeks, wait for
it to clear out and wait for the rbc's to rise, take out blood, do epo
again, wait for it to clear out and wait for the rbc's to rise again,
then add back the blood that was taken out. do it once in
winter/spring and once in may/june with a little growth hormone and
testosterone thrown in for good measure.

Quoted message said:

Keith said:

Since it has caused the demise of one of the best cyclists of the past
10 yeas, might be time to put this to bed.
Anyone got a good link for that ?
I'm assuming that the idea behind this mad doctor's "work" is to
increase the RBC count.The cheaters used to do it with EPO but now EPO
can be detected.
Question is, how did the good doctor boost the RBC in the blood he
took without leaving any traces ? Some kind of "filtering" maybe ?

keep looking. did you see the calendar for Tyler Hamilton for 2003 as
published in that newspaper? Basically do epo for two weeks, wait for
it to clear out and wait for the rbc's to rise, take out blood, do epo
again, wait for it to clear out and wait for the rbc's to rise again,
then add back the blood that was taken out. do it once in
winter/spring and once in may/june with a little growth hormone and
testosterone thrown in for good measure.

Right, but that's the "old fashioned way" and clearly not compatible
with the constant random testing these guys are submitted to
throughout the year.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 19:08:01 -0700, "Matt C" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The Doctor doesn't boost RBC of the blood, he just puts it
back in the athlete and that increases RBC.

http://www.uihealthcare.com/topics/sportsmedicine/spor3322.html

Very interesting thanks, but then why is Fuentes needed for that, any
nurse could likely set up the transfusion ?

Quoted message said:

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Since it has caused the demise of one of the best cyclists of the past
10 yeas, might be time to put this to bed.
Anyone got a good link for that ?
I'm assuming that the idea behind this mad doctor's "work" is to
increase the RBC count.The cheaters used to do it with EPO but now EPO
can be detected.
Question is, how did the good doctor boost the RBC in the blood he
took without leaving any traces ? Some kind of "filtering" maybe ?

Quoted message said:

Keith said:

Since it has caused the demise of one of the best cyclists of the past
10 yeas, might be time to put this to bed.
Anyone got a good link for that ?
I'm assuming that the idea behind this mad doctor's "work" is to
increase the RBC count.The cheaters used to do it with EPO but now EPO
can be detected.
Question is, how did the good doctor boost the RBC in the blood he
took without leaving any traces ? Some kind of "filtering" maybe ?

keep looking. did you see the calendar for Tyler Hamilton for 2003 as
published in that newspaper? Basically do epo for two weeks, wait for
it to clear out and wait for the rbc's to rise, take out blood, do epo
again, wait for it to clear out and wait for the rbc's to rise again,
then add back the blood that was taken out. do it once in
winter/spring and once in may/june with a little growth hormone and
testosterone thrown in for good measure.

Is that consistent with the juvenile blood units you were talking about
last year?

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Keith said:

Since it has caused the demise of one of the best cyclists of the past
10 yeas, might be time to put this to bed.
Anyone got a good link for that ?
I'm assuming that the idea behind this mad doctor's "work" is to
increase the RBC count.The cheaters used to do it with EPO but now EPO
can be detected.
Question is, how did the good doctor boost the RBC in the blood he
took without leaving any traces ? Some kind of "filtering" maybe ?

keep looking. did you see the calendar for Tyler Hamilton for 2003 as
published in that newspaper? Basically do epo for two weeks, wait for
it to clear out and wait for the rbc's to rise, take out blood, do epo
again, wait for it to clear out and wait for the rbc's to rise again,
then add back the blood that was taken out. do it once in
winter/spring and once in may/june with a little growth hormone and
testosterone thrown in for good measure.

Right, but that's the "old fashioned way" and clearly not compatible
with the constant random testing these guys are submitted to
throughout the year.

By random testing do you mean out of competition testing?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

keep looking. did you see the calendar for Tyler Hamilton for 2003 as
published in that newspaper? Basically do epo for two weeks, wait for
it to clear out and wait for the rbc's to rise, take out blood, do epo
again, wait for it to clear out and wait for the rbc's to rise again,
then add back the blood that was taken out. do it once in
winter/spring and once in may/june with a little growth hormone and
testosterone thrown in for good measure.

Right, but that's the "old fashioned way" and clearly not compatible
with the constant random testing these guys are submitted to
throughout the year.

By random testing do you mean out of competition testing?

Yes, at random moments throughout the season, you hear enought
cyclists complaining about that, which I must admit has to be a bit
insulting...

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Right, but that's the "old fashioned way" and clearly not compatible
with the constant random testing these guys are submitted to
throughout the year.

By random testing do you mean out of competition testing?

Yes, at random moments throughout the season, you hear enought
cyclists complaining about that, which I must admit has to be a bit
insulting...

Apparently I'm still of the "old fashioned way". I was not aware that out of
competition testing had expanded to a much wider, if not the full
in-competition, range. But I was wrong.

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 10:02:23 -0500, "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Right, but that's the "old fashioned way" and clearly not compatible
> with the constant random testing these guys are submitted to
> throughout the year.
>

By random testing do you mean out of competition testing?

Yes, at random moments throughout the season, you hear enought
cyclists complaining about that, which I must admit has to be a bit
insulting...

Apparently I'm still of the "old fashioned way". I was not aware that out of
competition testing had expanded to a much wider, if not the full
in-competition, range. But I was wrong.

Yeah they can pretty much be tested at all times, so EPO is out unless
you're an idiot like Hears. Hence my questions about the whole "blood
doping" program. It seems all you need to do is take out blood and the
reinject it later, but then who needs Fuentes for that, if Ullrich had
done that he would have likely thrashed the comptetition today.

Robert Chung said:

Is that consistent with the juvenile blood units you were talking about
last year?

That was "badgersouth". The 2003 program wasn't consistent with
pediatric units. And from the tv coverage of the raid, well lets say
those bags of blood were pretty big. The "Pediatric Unit" theory would
make it easier to take out and add blood without big swings in
hematocrit and performance. And would have explained some of the test
results. If you were looking for evidence of heterologous transfusion,
you would be looking for about a 5% population of cells (presumablly
any less would not effect performance enough)

Quoted message said:

Robert Chung said:

Is that consistent with the juvenile blood units you were talking about
last year?

That was "badgersouth".

Sorry for the misattribution.

Quoted message said:

The 2003 program wasn't consistent with
pediatric units. And from the tv coverage of the raid, well lets say
those bags of blood were pretty big. The "Pediatric Unit" theory would
make it easier to take out and add blood without big swings in
hematocrit and performance. And would have explained some of the test
results. If you were looking for evidence of heterologous transfusion,
you would be looking for about a 5% population of cells (presumablly
any less would not effect performance enough)

I thought the Hamilton results were only consistent pediatric units?

"Matt C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:7Mfwg.2769$Gv.1074@fed1read09...

Quoted message said:

The Doctor doesn't boost RBC of the blood, he just puts it
back in the athlete and that increases RBC.

Not quite. They spin the blood down and drain off most of the serum. This
leaves about 50% of the volume left and so when that's reinfused it can
increase not only the Hct but total blood volume as well. Both effectively
increase 92 carriage in the blood.

You CAN simply put back in the blood you pulled out as well but the other
way you can put in up to two units of blood for the same volume.

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 20:52:23 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

Quoted message said:

"Matt C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:7Mfwg.2769$Gv.1074@fed1read09...

Quoted message said:

The Doctor doesn't boost RBC of the blood, he just puts it
back in the athlete and that increases RBC.

Not quite. They spin the blood down and drain off most of the serum. This
leaves about 50% of the volume left and so when that's reinfused it can
increase not only the Hct but total blood volume as well. Both effectively
increase 92 carriage in the blood.

You CAN simply put back in the blood you pulled out as well but the other
way you can put in up to two units of blood for the same volume.

Yeah and I guess there is a limit to how much you can reinject back !
So where does Fuentes come in with that type of approach ?

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 20:52:23 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

Quoted message said:

"Matt C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:7Mfwg.2769$Gv.1074@fed1read09...

Quoted message said:

The Doctor doesn't boost RBC of the blood, he just puts it
back in the athlete and that increases RBC.

Not quite. They spin the blood down and drain off most of the serum. This
leaves about 50% of the volume left and so when that's reinfused it can
increase not only the Hct but total blood volume as well. Both effectively
increase 92 carriage in the blood.

You CAN simply put back in the blood you pulled out as well but the other
way you can put in up to two units of blood for the same volume.

Yeah and I guess there is a limit to how much you can reinject back !
So where does Fuentes come in with that type of approach ?

I haven't read the report but I assume that he did all the lab work as well
as proscribing the various dopes such as testosterone patches, EPO
injections (which you need to rapidly recover from drawing blood), hGH
(which as far as I can tell does nothing at all except build the ego of
those using it) and the like.

I assume that he was also doing the NORMAL doctor stuff such as vitamin
injections etc.

Keith said:

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 10:02:23 -0500, "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>By random testing do you mean out of competition testing?
Yes, at random moments throughout the season, you hear enought
cyclists complaining about that, which I must admit has to be a bit
insulting...

Apparently I'm still of the "old fashioned way". I was not aware that out of
competition testing had expanded to a much wider, if not the full
in-competition, range. But I was wrong.

Yeah they can pretty much be tested at all times, so EPO is out unless
you're an idiot like Hears. Hence my questions about the whole "blood
doping" program. It seems all you need to do is take out blood and the
reinject it later, but then who needs Fuentes for that, if Ullrich had
done that he would have likely thrashed the comptetition today.

How do you know how often they're tested out of competition?
EPO is only detectable in a few day window. The chances of
getting popped in that window in the winter are probably
pretty small.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You CAN simply put back in the blood you pulled out as well but the other
way you can put in up to two units of blood for the same volume.

Yeah and I guess there is a limit to how much you can reinject back !
So where does Fuentes come in with that type of approach ?

I haven't read the report but I assume that he did all the lab work as well
as proscribing the various dopes such as testosterone patches, EPO
injections (which you need to rapidly recover from drawing blood), hGH
(which as far as I can tell does nothing at all except build the ego of
those using it) and the like.

I assume that he was also doing the NORMAL doctor stuff such as vitamin
injections etc.

Interesting, so if he'd uses any other doctor he would have been ok,
tough break !

Quoted message said:

How do you know how often they're tested out of competition?
EPO is only detectable in a few day window. The chances of
getting popped in that window in the winter are probably
pretty small.

Smaller still when they can disappear for a few days without much
trouble.

Uh, I heard he went camping. Somewhere in Colorado, or maybe it was in
the Pyrenees. Should be back in a week or so.

"Warren G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How do you know how often they're tested out of competition?
EPO is only detectable in a few day window. The chances of
getting popped in that window in the winter are probably
pretty small.

Smaller still when they can disappear for a few days without much
trouble.

Uh, I heard he went camping. Somewhere in Colorado, or maybe it was in
the Pyrenees. Should be back in a week or so.

That wouldn't work. Gotta notify drug control of your whereabouts pretty
continuously. Continuously enough to ensure that you are able to receive
notification to show up at a lab within (I believe) 24 hours.