Block Training

normZurawski said:

SolarEnergy,

I was basically doing nothing but L2, maybe occasional L3. No intervals at all.

I am 5-11, medium-large build. Not an ideal biker frame, to be sure. Maybe more of a football player but, as Popeye says, I yam what I yam.

I hadn't trained enough for the 50k. The terrain was extremely technical and after the midway point I started to really hurt.

I agree that tapering too much for the 24 is not a good idea. For an event like that, I'm not sure a huge taper really does me a lot of good.

The 50k is probably more important right now. But time will tell.

Oh. Ok.

Finally, would you say that there are many segments done at L5 or higher during the 50k?

SolarEnergy said:

Finally, would you say that there are many segments done at L5 or higher during the 50k?

Absolutely. I have no idea how to gauge it but I would guess there were technical climbs that put me in L5+ every mile or so. There were 5000 feet of vertical climbing over that 50k.

normZurawski said:

Absolutely. I have no idea how to gauge it but I would guess there were technical climbs that put me in L5+ every mile or so. There were 5000 feet of vertical climbing over that 50k.

Listen. I find you're a very interesting case. Rather complex I find.

In a longer term perspective, I think you should aim at improving your performance over very long events year after year for many years to come. I don't actually see how performances could go down with time in this department except maybe for injuries or overtraining (which would have a negative impact only for a limited time). So don't rush in this department. I wouldn't train to really *perform* over this type of duration before few years. Your decision to favor the 50k event earlier in your career is a good one imo.

First you might want to improve power output. A good pal of mine, I'm actually helping him with his program is exactly your body type. 6feet 190 (race fit). He's a climber so weight shouldn't be that much of an issue given that you can actually carry it uphill. And to do that you'll need to get comfortable at L5 uphill. And at L4.

Therefore if you really want to tackle these two event types in a same season, one smart approach would be that you simply overload at higher intensity earlier in the microcycle, then pad with lower level training, broken with small higher intensity bouts if you want or can.

If you don't have a lot of training time then yes. Blocking one department after the other, from L5/4/3-2 could be something to try. But L5/5/5 for instance, well I'd wait to see how you do with a wider approach first. It's your first season doing those long events full duration. Be careful to include enough lower intensity training all year round.

You need to learn to choose the right pace early in long events, and later experiment this feeling of riding on low (but sufficient) glycogen level. You need to learn to feed during, and after each training. Feeding is the key you can't imagine how important it will be during 12 adn 24hr long events.

It sounds like block training would really take the joy out of cycling.🙂

wiredued said:

It sounds like block training would really take the joy out of cycling.🙂

No I disagree. You can still throw in the group rides and nice easy recovery rides...and you can block train L2 too .
It makes cycling more enjoyable for me because I am spending much less total time on my ass riding and I look for to riding as a result.
🙂

wiredued said:

It sounds like block training would really take the joy out of cycling.🙂

I disagree. This whole discussion of block training centers on two subjects: (1) how to allocate high-intensity efforts both day to day and cyclically and (2) how to decide when to take a recovery day. It has nothing to do with total volume or training stress. I can conceive of block training plans with both high and low total volume and training stress.

RapDaddyo said:

I disagree. This whole discussion of block training centers on two subjects: (1) how to allocate high-intensity efforts both day to day and cyclically and (2) how to decide when to take a recovery day. It has nothing to do with total volume or training stress. I can conceive of block training plans with both high and low total volume and training stress.

One thing that Morris says is that when you are doing L4 or L5 block work the total volume the trainee logs on the bike MUST be lower than with more traditional training methods simply because you are doing 4-5 hard structured days of this intense stuff in a 7 day period.

However, Morris also believes in block training L2 and in this case he leans towards plenty of hours on the road.

TiMan said:

However, Morris also believes in block training L2 and in this case he leans towards plenty of hours on the road.

And to think about a quarter of a century ago I used to just get on my bike, ride long rides day after day and then take a few days off when I got tired. Who knew I was doing twenty first century L2 block training🙂

Sorry I'm so late in getting around to thanking TiMan and Norm for taking the time out to suggest a "block training schedule" for me.

The strange thing is, the more you read the advice offered in these forums, the more confused you become. (well I do anyway) 🙁

There are so many good tips, arguments and counter arguments, it becomes more and more difficult to know which way to go. I think in the end you have to decide on what you think is beneficial for you. It could be so easy to jump from horse to horse and end up falling between horses and getting nowhere.

My "virtual" coach, namely RapDaddyo has so far taken me from a 130W FT to a .....[censored] Watt FT (soon to be revealed, but at least 250W😉 ) in 9 months.

So I think I can safely say his method has worked for me. However, we are different animals and perhaps a slight deviation in places will do no harm.

When and if I stop making progress, perhaps then a rethink is called for.

And finally, I don't believe in "silver bullets"; there is no substitute for hard work whichever path you decide upon.

Sillyoldtwit said:

I think I can safely say his method has worked for me. However, we are different animals and perhaps a slight deviation in places will do no harm.

There's no problem with that, now or ever. I would only offer two pieces of advice. One, pursue training methodologies that are grounded in science (versus anecdotal). Two, know in advance how you are going to measure your progress and performance under the planned methodology. If one doesn't adhere to these two principles, he is likely to find himself wandering aimlessly in the vast canyons of training folklore.😄

RapDaddyo said:

There's no problem with that, now or ever. I would only offer two pieces of advice. One, pursue training methodologies that are grounded in science (versus anecdotal). Two, know in advance how you are going to measure your progress and performance under the planned methodology. If one doesn't adhere to these two principles, he is likely to find himself wandering aimlessly in the vast canyons of training folklore.😄

So well said! Anecdotal evidence given earlier in this thread I totally ignored.

I don't remember exactly, but some woman TTer improved her FTP by 46 Watts in 18 months. Now, 18 months is a long time and who's to say she wouldn't have made the same progress or even greater progress following a different methodology. It obviously cannot be proved/disproved.

Here's an interview with Dave Morris that I found interesting:

http://www.thebikinghub.com/mtb/ashwin-interviews-dave-morris/

Enjoy.

greg

SolarEnergy said:

Listen. I find you're a very interesting case.

Woo hoo! My mom always said I was special! 🙂

SolarEnergy said:

I wouldn't train to really *perform* over this type of duration before few years.

Absolutely agree. Goals on the endurance events for 2007 are geared towards just finishing.

SolarEnergy said:

Therefore if you really want to tackle these two event types in a same season, one smart approach would be that you simply overload at higher intensity earlier in the microcycle, then pad with lower level training, broken with small higher intensity bouts if you want or can.

That's basically my intent. The current high-level plan is L3 in the offseason, with L4 added more and more each week to establish that a) I can ride at 5:00 am consistently, b) I can handle 5 days/week, and c) I'm ready for higher intensity work when that time comes.

SolarEnergy said:

You need to learn to choose the right pace early in long events, and later experiment this feeling of riding on low (but sufficient) glycogen level. You need to learn to feed during, and after each training. Feeding is the key you can't imagine how important it will be during 12 adn 24hr long events.

I agree. The nutritional needs and pacing are huge in these events. Small mistakes get amplified tremendously when you ride for 6+ hours.

Sillyoldtwit said:

The strange thing is, the more you read the advice offered in these forums, the more confused you become. (well I do anyway) 🙁

Confusion often leads to future enlightenment. If you're not confused, it means you've got it all figured out. And nobody has it all figured out. So you're on the right path.

Sillyoldtwit said:

There are so many good tips, arguments and counter arguments, it becomes more and more difficult to know which way to go. I think in the end you have to decide on what you think is beneficial for you. It could be so easy to jump from horse to horse and end up falling between horses and getting nowhere.

Maybe and maybe not. It may also be a case of there being many ways to skina cat. No matter what, if you put in the hard word, you skin the cat. This may really be a matter of what works for you mentally. From what I've read, Morris also thinks you should do all/most of this stuff on a trainer. Put in enough time on a trainer and you've got to find the best way to sort it all out that makes you keep going back for more. I imagine that's the hardest aspect of it all - throwing your leg over that bar again only to pedal to nowhere.

As you mention, you have a plan which works for you. And obviously you're not burned out. So really there's no current need to change unless you stall.

yawg said:

Here's an interview with Dave Morris that I found interesting:

thebikinghub.comashwin interviews dave morrisOpen ↗

Enjoy.

greg

I actually read the interviewer's (ashwinearl) blog fairly regularly, and it strikes me that his case is certainly rife with anecdotal evidence. Basically, he was a guy who had no plan for a lot of years until he had a kid. Then his time was limited to he trained harder/smarter. It just so happens he used the Morris principles. He saw gains. But the real question is, did he make gains because of Morris principles, or because he started training harder?

You seems to be on the right track Norm. I can't wait to hear some more about how your training and racing seasons will unfold.

Cheers

SolarEnergy said:

You seems to be on the right track Norm. I can't wait to hear some more about how your training and racing seasons will unfold.

Cheers

Thanks! A lot of time between now and then.

I have some questions for Timan... Do you feel like you have reached or are very close to your genetic FTP limit? If so could that be a reason for choosing block training and high volume endurance training to squeeze out as much performance as possible to get an edge on the competition? I did some high volume endurance training last winter and only saw my climbing power go up by 10 watts on a half hour climb in the spring. It's better than a decrease in power but I feel alot of time was wasted at L2 although I can't really prove that yet.

wiredued said:

I have some questions for Timan... Do you feel like you have reached or are very close to your genetic FTP limit? If so could that be a reason for choosing block training and high volume endurance training to squeeze out as much performance as possible to get an edge on the competition? I did some high volume endurance training last winter and only saw my climbing power go up by 10 watts on a half hour climb in the spring. It's better than a decrease in power but I feel alot of time was wasted at L2 although I can't really prove that yet.

L2 is not so valuable IF you are in decent shape already. That said it does indeed increase FTP, and VO2 max. However, my endurance work has always been upper level L2 and with some L3 thrown in for good measure. I just don't feel like I get much out of long slow rides. Many guys did not like, and still don't like, to ride with me on long days because they wanted/want to go slow.

I feel that if you want to really increase your FTP then you need to spend tons of time on L4 workouts on the flats, the trainer and climbing. Motor pacing is a superior way to get lots ofL4 work in.

I am past my prime and also don't have as much time to train as I used to. I don't do large blocks of high volume L2-3 work. I no longer compete at the national Cat 1 level.
In my prime I peaked at holding 440 watts for a 45 minute all out TT so I estimate my FTP was about 400 watts and 5.67 watts per kilo.

Right now my FTP is about 315 watts, which has dropped from Summer, and I am doing the block training to try to kick it up to maybe 330-340 by Spring with low total training volume, and then try some Cat 1 stuff again just for fun. I am over 40 years old and still weigh 70.5 kilo's.

Something just clicked in my head and said that block training L4 simply has to work...it isn't rocket science.

Could you please reconcile this quote I grabbed from a previous post of yours with what you just said? cyclingforums.comt 369646 15 2.htmlOpen ↗ 😕

"If you ever want to race Cat 1 or even Cat 2 at a decent level then you better get a great deal of low intensity endurance miles in starting this time of year or you will never get as good as you can with higher intensity training. Trouble is most of these guys here don't have the time and of course if you cannot put in the miles then you must increase intensity."

TiMan said:

...I just don't feel like I get much out of long slow rides. Many guys did not like, and still don't like, to ride with me on long days because they wanted/want to go slow.

I feel that if you want to really increase your FTP then you need to spend tons of time on L4 workouts on the flats, the trainer and climbing. Motor pacing is a superior way to get lots ofL4 work in...Something just clicked in my head and said that block training L4 simply has to work...it isn't rocket science.