Block Chain

Quoted message said:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098

Jobst Brandt

Can't really see the evidence for block chain in those photos, but a
lovely bike nonetheless.

Quoted message said:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098

Jobst Brandt

Nice to look at, but to darn expensive to tear up by riding (wooden
rims?... ?:O ).

Firebikes does a nice repro frame-

Quoted message said:

http://www.firebikes.com/bikes-autocycle.html

Somebody out there is building repro engines too.

People have done reproductions of early Harley and Indians. They look
sweet, and you don't have to feel guilty for taking them out and putting
miles on them.
~

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098

Jobst Brandt

Thank heavens they had not invented traffic lights by then.
At 100 lbs plus rider it would not have been quick off the mark.
Thanks for the photo.

cheers,
Darryl

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt

Can't really see the evidence for block chain in those photos, but a
lovely bike nonetheless.

Look for the skip-tooth chainwheel.

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt

Can't really see the evidence for block chain in those photos, but a
lovely bike nonetheless.

Dear Ryan,

I could have sworn that I posted a reply about this, but I can't find
it, so here it is again.

Block chain would require a gap between each tooth:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ba-n.html#blockchain

I can see only two teeth clearly exposed on the front sprocket, just
below the right crank arm:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098

Enlarging the picture with a free viewer like IrfanView doesn't help
much:

http://www.irfanview.net

Even when I enlarge it, I can't make out what the sign on the lower
left of the picture says, much less tell whether there's a clear gap
(or non-gap) between the two front sprocket teeth.

So I used a free onscreen protractor:

http://www.markus-bader.de/MB-Ruler

The protractor suggests that the teeth are set ~10 degrees apart, or
~36 teeth on a front sprocket.

(Precise measurement is tricky, since the picture was taken at a
slight angle. The angle distorts the sprocket a bit and also requires
you to guess where the center of the sprocket is. But I get ~10
degrees, plus or minus a degree.)

A ~36 tooth normal-chain front sprocket is reasonable, given an
ancient moped.

A ~36 tooth block-chain sprocket doesn't seem likely. If a block chain
skips every other tooth, ~36 teeth would mean that the front sprocket
in the picture is the size of ~72 tooth normal sprocket, which it
clearly isn't.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098
Jobst Brandt

Can't really see the evidence for block chain in those photos, but a
lovely bike nonetheless.

Dear Ryan,

I could have sworn that I posted a reply about this, but I can't find
it, so here it is again.

Block chain would require a gap between each tooth:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ba-n.html#blockchain

I can see only two teeth clearly exposed on the front sprocket, just
below the right crank arm:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098

Enlarging the picture with a free viewer like IrfanView doesn't help
much:

http://www.irfanview.net

Even when I enlarge it, I can't make out what the sign on the lower
left of the picture says, much less tell whether there's a clear gap
(or non-gap) between the two front sprocket teeth.

So I used a free onscreen protractor:

http://www.markus-bader.de/MB-Ruler

The protractor suggests that the teeth are set ~10 degrees apart, or
~36 teeth on a front sprocket.

(Precise measurement is tricky, since the picture was taken at a
slight angle. The angle distorts the sprocket a bit and also requires
you to guess where the center of the sprocket is. But I get ~10
degrees, plus or minus a degree.)

A ~36 tooth normal-chain front sprocket is reasonable, given an
ancient moped.

A ~36 tooth block-chain sprocket doesn't seem likely. If a block chain
skips every other tooth, ~36 teeth would mean that the front sprocket
in the picture is the size of ~72 tooth normal sprocket, which it
clearly isn't.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

From here it looks like a skip tooth chain wheel.
Take a look at the teeth above the crank arm in the upper picture where
they have the black chainstays for a background.
In the lower picture look where the chainwheel has the engine flywheel
as a background. http://www.ody.ca/~marcoles/MarksChain.jpg

Marcus

Marcus Coles said:

From here it looks like a skip tooth chain wheel. Take a look at
the teeth above the crank arm in the upper picture where they have
the black chainstays for a background. In the lower picture look
where the chainwheel has the engine flywheel as a background.

http://www.ody.ca/~marcoles/MarksChain.jpg

I see we don't have a lot of old track riders here. The sprocket is
clearly inch pitch and at that age, roller chain was not yet invented.
Withut doubt, this is block chain.

Jobst Brandt

On Sat, 07 Apr 2007 18:44:36 -0400, Marcus Coles <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted post said:

On Apr 5, 1:28 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

> http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098
> Jobst Brandt
Can't really see the evidence for block chain in those photos, but a
lovely bike nonetheless.

Dear Ryan,

I could have sworn that I posted a reply about this, but I can't find
it, so here it is again.

Block chain would require a gap between each tooth:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ba-n.html#blockchain

I can see only two teeth clearly exposed on the front sprocket, just
below the right crank arm:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098

Enlarging the picture with a free viewer like IrfanView doesn't help
much:

http://www.irfanview.net

Even when I enlarge it, I can't make out what the sign on the lower
left of the picture says, much less tell whether there's a clear gap
(or non-gap) between the two front sprocket teeth.

So I used a free onscreen protractor:

http://www.markus-bader.de/MB-Ruler

The protractor suggests that the teeth are set ~10 degrees apart, or
~36 teeth on a front sprocket.

(Precise measurement is tricky, since the picture was taken at a
slight angle. The angle distorts the sprocket a bit and also requires
you to guess where the center of the sprocket is. But I get ~10
degrees, plus or minus a degree.)

A ~36 tooth normal-chain front sprocket is reasonable, given an
ancient moped.

A ~36 tooth block-chain sprocket doesn't seem likely. If a block chain
skips every other tooth, ~36 teeth would mean that the front sprocket
in the picture is the size of ~72 tooth normal sprocket, which it
clearly isn't.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

From here it looks like a skip tooth chain wheel.
Take a look at the teeth above the crank arm in the upper picture where
they have the black chainstays for a background.
In the lower picture look where the chainwheel has the engine flywheel
as a background. http://www.ody.ca/~marcoles/MarksChain.jpg

Marcus

Dear Marcus,

Nice enlargement of the lower picture!

Here it is again, for those who want to check for themselves:

http://www.ody.ca/~marcoles/MarksChain.jpg

My onscreen protractor shows ~16 degrees per tooth, which works out to
~22 teeth, and is quite plausible for skip-tooth. And the gap in your
enlargement looks pretty clear to me.

Here's the original link with two pictures:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098

But the upper picture still looks like ~10 degrees per tooth for the
two teeth against the white background, which works out to ~36 teeth
and doesn't seem plausible for block chain.

This apparent contradiction puzzled me, so I looked some more.

When I enlarge the upper picture with the two teeth that look so close
together against the white background, I _think_ that I can make out
other teeth that are further apart, just like the lower picture.

For the best view of a skip or gap in the upper pciture, look at the
teeth against the black chainstay area.

So now I agree with you that it's block chain.

I suspect that the two "teeth" that caught my eye against the white
background in the upper picture are actually just one tooth and
something else in just the right spot to look like a tooth where
there's actually a gap.

I can't figure out what that false "tooth" is against the white
background in the upper picture--maybe some fitting hanging down on
the far side of the machine?

The upper picture has what looks like a light-colored bar running
under the chainstay, but I think that it's actually just the faint
_shadow_ of the chainstay on the white wall. But the false "tooth"
seems to be next this bar, not part of it, so I still don't know what
that false "tooth" is.

Anyway, my reconsidered dental opinion is that I was wrong and that
you're right--it's block chain with a skip-tooth front sprocket, just
as advertised.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Marcus Coles said:

From here it looks like a skip tooth chain wheel. Take a look at
the teeth above the crank arm in the upper picture where they have
the black chainstays for a background. In the lower picture look
where the chainwheel has the engine flywheel as a background.

http://www.ody.ca/~marcoles/MarksChain.jpg

I see we don't have a lot of old track riders here. The sprocket is
clearly inch pitch and at that age, roller chain was not yet invented.
Withut doubt, this is block chain.

Jobst Brandt

Jobst,

You are correct, but you already knew that. ;-)

In checking the Renold Chain history

http://www.renold.com/Renold/web/site/Company/CompanyInformation/History.asp

Your assessment of it being a 1" block chain would seem right and
definitely not 1" x 3/16" skip tooth as I had guessed from the tooth
spacing. You were correct in pointing out bushed roller chain was still
a few years away.

_1885_
A patent for the block chain was applied for by Hans Renold but he
decided to openly give his idea to the cycle trade for all to freely
manufacture. Undoubtedly he gained many friends by this charitable action.

_1899_
Brampton Brothers Ltd. patented the integral bush/inner plate chain upon
which so many cycle chains have been based.

Marcus Coles

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 07 Apr 2007 18:44:36 -0400, Marcus Coles <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Apr 6, 12:02 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Apr 5, 1:28 pm, [email hidden] wrote:
>
>> http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098
>> Jobst Brandt
> Can't really see the evidence for block chain in those photos, but a
> lovely bike nonetheless.

Dear Ryan,

I could have sworn that I posted a reply about this, but I can't find
it, so here it is again.

Block chain would require a gap between each tooth:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ba-n.html#blockchain

I can see only two teeth clearly exposed on the front sprocket, just
below the right crank arm:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098

Enlarging the picture with a free viewer like IrfanView doesn't help
much:

http://www.irfanview.net

Even when I enlarge it, I can't make out what the sign on the lower
left of the picture says, much less tell whether there's a clear gap
(or non-gap) between the two front sprocket teeth.

So I used a free onscreen protractor:

http://www.markus-bader.de/MB-Ruler

The protractor suggests that the teeth are set ~10 degrees apart, or
~36 teeth on a front sprocket.

(Precise measurement is tricky, since the picture was taken at a
slight angle. The angle distorts the sprocket a bit and also requires
you to guess where the center of the sprocket is. But I get ~10
degrees, plus or minus a degree.)

A ~36 tooth normal-chain front sprocket is reasonable, given an
ancient moped.

A ~36 tooth block-chain sprocket doesn't seem likely. If a block chain
skips every other tooth, ~36 teeth would mean that the front sprocket
in the picture is the size of ~72 tooth normal sprocket, which it
clearly isn't.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,

From here it looks like a skip tooth chain wheel.
Take a look at the teeth above the crank arm in the upper picture where
they have the black chainstays for a background.
In the lower picture look where the chainwheel has the engine flywheel
as a background. http://www.ody.ca/~marcoles/MarksChain.jpg

Marcus

Dear Marcus,

Nice enlargement of the lower picture!

Here it is again, for those who want to check for themselves:

http://www.ody.ca/~marcoles/MarksChain.jpg

My onscreen protractor shows ~16 degrees per tooth, which works out to
~22 teeth, and is quite plausible for skip-tooth. And the gap in your
enlargement looks pretty clear to me.

Here's the original link with two pictures:

http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=12098

But the upper picture still looks like ~10 degrees per tooth for the
two teeth against the white background, which works out to ~36 teeth
and doesn't seem plausible for block chain.

This apparent contradiction puzzled me, so I looked some more.

When I enlarge the upper picture with the two teeth that look so close
together against the white background, I _think_ that I can make out
other teeth that are further apart, just like the lower picture.

For the best view of a skip or gap in the upper pciture, look at the
teeth against the black chainstay area.

So now I agree with you that it's block chain.

I suspect that the two "teeth" that caught my eye against the white
background in the upper picture are actually just one tooth and
something else in just the right spot to look like a tooth where
there's actually a gap.

I can't figure out what that false "tooth" is against the white
background in the upper picture--maybe some fitting hanging down on
the far side of the machine?

The upper picture has what looks like a light-colored bar running
under the chainstay, but I think that it's actually just the faint
_shadow_ of the chainstay on the white wall. But the false "tooth"
seems to be next this bar, not part of it, so I still don't know what
that false "tooth" is.

Anyway, my reconsidered dental opinion is that I was wrong and that
you're right--it's block chain with a skip-tooth front sprocket, just
as advertised.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Oh, dear!

Some browsing leads me to change things slightly.

It's long-link gap-toothed chain.

But whether it's block or roller isn't clear. Both kinds of long-link
chain existed in 1896.

For details, see my reply to Jobst elsewhere in this thread.

CF

Quoted message said:

Marcus Coles said:

From here it looks like a skip tooth chain wheel. Take a look at
the teeth above the crank arm in the upper picture where they have
the black chainstays for a background. In the lower picture look
where the chainwheel has the engine flywheel as a background.

http://www.ody.ca/~marcoles/MarksChain.jpg

I see we don't have a lot of old track riders here. The sprocket is
clearly inch pitch and at that age, roller chain was not yet invented.
Withut doubt, this is block chain.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

After Marcus Coles put up a nice enlargement, I looked further and
decided that I was wrong and that you and he are right--it's long-link
chain.

But whether it's block or roller is another question.

Sharp's 1896 "Bicycles & Tricycles" shows Abingdon roller chain:

http://i13.tinypic.com//4hxd0nq.jpg

It's still long-pitch (one inch) chain, but roller chain was on the
books by 1896.

The Renold's site history confirms the existence of roller chain:

"Although Hans Renold is famous for his patent of 1880 for the 'bush
roller chain' he also introduced had many other chain designs and
patents which include:

- block chain in 1885

- twin roller chain in 1887

- shouldered bush chain in 1889

- silent (inverted tooth) chain in 1895"

http://www.renold.com/Renold/web/site/Company/CompanyInformation/History_of_Renold_continued.asp?MenuLinkID=926&MenuID=98

Confusingly, "twin-roller" in the passage above refers to replacing
the short solid block with two close-set rollers (also known as
"double-roller" chain) connected by short plates. Here's a crude
diagram:

T T 1-inch teeth
BBB BBB BBB 1-inch block
R R R R R R 1-inch pitch double-roller
R R R 1-inch roller
R R R R R 1/2-inch roller
t t t t 1/2-inch teeth

In contrast, the Abingdon chain was just a normal roller chain with
1-inch pitch instead of 1/2 inch pitch.

Frank Berto writes:

"During the 1880's, the simple block chain was the most popular
bicycle chain even though roller chains were available. In the U.S.
block chains continued to be used right through to the 1950s for track
racing. Block chains had a pitch of 1 in. (25.4 mm) and used special
chainwheels and sprockets with a thickness of 1/4 in. (6 mm) in the
19th century and 3/16 in. (5mm) later."

"In 1880, Hans Renold pattented the bush-roller chain. Renold had
purchased Slater's chain works, and he manufactured "long-link"
bush-roller chains with pitches of 1.0, 1.02, 1.19, or 1.3 in. (25.4,
26, 30, and 33 mm) to the customer's order. Renold did not make
ptiches smaller than 1 in. (25.4 mm), so Renold chains were less
suitable for bicycles. After Renold's patent expired in 1894, Perry
and other manufacurers made 1/2-in. (12.7 mm) pitch "short-link"
bush-roller chain. Eventually, in 1899, Renold also started making 1/2
in. (12.7mm) pitch chains."

"Fig. 2.33 Short-link roller chain with 1/2 inch pitch. Lower diagram
shows tooth profile for short-link chain. The 1/2 inch pitch size
increased in popularity, and from 1900 on ward was the standard pitch
around the world."

--"Dancing Chain," 2nd edition, p. 30

So it's long-link chain (you and Marcus are right and I was wrong),
but without a better picture, a citation, or someone who's seen the
real thing, I don't see how to tell whether the 1896 Marks used
long-link block-chain or long-link roller-chain.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I see we don't have a lot of old track riders here. The sprocket is
clearly inch pitch and at that age, roller chain was not yet invented.
Withut doubt, this is block chain.

There are some... And yes, this looks like a block chain to me. But
due to the lack of resolution you can't tell whether or not the chain is
really a block chain or a double-roller, which were a common replacement
on these old bikes after block chain was no longer available.

Quoted message said:

"During the 1880's, the simple block chain was the most popular
bicycle chain even though roller chains were available. In the U.S.
block chains continued to be used right through to the 1950s for track
racing.

This actually extended into the 1970s. I used it then, and I wasn't the
only one. It was dying out, but some sprinters preferred it since they
thought of themselves as too strong for 1/8" roller chains.

One thing is that a block chain lasted a long time. No need to throw it
away after only a couple thousand miles.

--

David L. Johnson

If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach
a conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw

Marcus Coles said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From here it looks like a skip tooth chain wheel. Take a look at
the teeth above the crank arm in the upper picture where they have
the black chainstays for a background. In the lower picture look
where the chainwheel has the engine flywheel as a background.

http://www.ody.ca/~marcoles/MarksChain.jpg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I see we don't have a lot of old track riders here. The sprocket
is clearly inch pitch and at that age, roller chain was not yet
invented. Without doubt, this is block chain.

Quoted message said:

You are correct, but you already knew that. ;-)

Quoted message said:

In checking the Renold Chain history

http://www.renold.com/Renold/web/site/Company/CompanyInformation/History.asp

Quoted message said:

Your assessment of it being a 1" block chain would seem right and
definitely not 1" x 3/16" skip tooth as I had guessed from the tooth
spacing. You were correct in pointing out bushed roller chain was
still a few years away.

Puleeze, not "skip tooth" but inch pitch chain, that was originally
block chain. When roller chain came along there were so many of these
sprockets in use that chains with closely paired rollers were made to
fit them in replacement. However, all my early bicycles had these
paired roller chains to fit block chain sprockets. Only later when I
went to a bicycle track did I understand why they were that way.
Track riders swore that only a block chain was strong enough to
withstand the enormous torque of sprinters. I suppose some time later
people called them skip-tooth although they didn't skip anything.
Their teeth are so long that they would not fit into a derailleur
chain even if the width were correct.

Quoted message said:

_1885_

Quoted message said:

A patent for the block chain was applied for by Hans Renold but he
decided to openly give his idea to the cycle trade for all to freely
manufacture. Undoubtedly he gained many friends by this charitable
action.

Quoted message said:

_1899_

Quoted message said:

Brampton Brothers Ltd. patented the integral bush/inner plate chain
upon which so many cycle chains have been based.

Yes, we rode Brampton chains, the best ones for derailleur bicycles
until Regina caught up and made the CX-S, an asymmetric chain with
cutouts on the left side so climbing to the next larger sprocket worked
as well as some of the newer systems.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Marcus Coles said:

From here it looks like a skip tooth chain wheel. Take a look at
the teeth above the crank arm in the upper picture where they have
the black chainstays for a background. In the lower picture look
where the chainwheel has the engine flywheel as a background.

Quoted message said:

http://www.ody.ca/~marcoles/MarksChain.jpg
I see we don't have a lot of old track riders here. The sprocket is
clearly inch pitch and at that age, roller chain was not yet invented.
Withut doubt, this is block chain.

Yeah, it's clear and distinctive in that photo. Unmistakable.

(I only glanced at the first photo but couldn't see the detail well.)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971