Blair's legacy

Bernard said:

From a walker's perspective, has Blair been a success? Is the "right to
roam" providing most or all of what we want?

Speaking as someone living in part of the UK where it's been done much,
much, much better, IMHO the "right to roam" available south of the
border is a half-baked nonsense AFAICT.

And of course the Scottish access legislation has nothing really to do
with Mr. Blair. As with the smoking ban, the Scottish Executive got on
with doing a reasonable job of it while the folk down in Westminster
were moaning it couldn't be done.

So I'm more likely to remember TB for getting us into pointless wars...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Speaking as someone living in part of the UK where it's been done much,
much, much better, IMHO the "right to roam" available south of the
border is a half-baked nonsense AFAICT.

thats interesting. When I think about walking in Scotland I
automatically think about restrictions and phonecalls to keepers, in
England I just get on with it. Thats of course largely due to the land
use. How do you see Scotland as being in a better position?
--
Mike Reid
UK walking, food, photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Spain walking, food, tourism "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk"
Beginners UK flight sim addons "http://www.lawn-mower-man.co.uk"

Message-ID: <[email hidden]> from Peter Clinch
contained the following:

Quoted message said:

And of course the Scottish access legislation has nothing really to do
with Mr. Blair. As with the smoking ban, the Scottish Executive got on
with doing a reasonable job of it while the folk down in Westminster
were moaning it couldn't be done.

Yes, his legacy will be one of wishy washy half heartedness. People
appreciate decisiveness even if they don't wholly agree.

Quoted message said:

So I'm more likely to remember TB for getting us into pointless wars...

Yes, the one part that he was decisive about and he gets it wrong. Of
course that wasn't Blair being decisive, it was Bush.

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

The Reid said:

thats interesting. When I think about walking in Scotland I
automatically think about restrictions and phonecalls to keepers, in
England I just get on with it. Thats of course largely due to the land
use. How do you see Scotland as being in a better position?

I have a full legal right to go pretty much anywhere I please. Stalking
restrictions are not a hard limit against me, just a case of mutually
beneficial consideration.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Bernard" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

From a walker's perspective, has Blair been a success? Is the "right to
roam" providing most or all of what we want?

I think it has been very much over hyped.

I have been hill walking for more than 50 years and for all that time I
have acted as if there was a right to roam.

On many of the higher hills it really was the case that we had de facto
access and as there were no silly green dots wandering aimlessly across
the maps every path and track was an open invitation. In the distant
past I never encountered any restrictions in the Lake District (where I
started walking pre AW) and it has only been in recent years (post rtr)
as I knocked off The Outlying Fells have I met with any barriers,
barriers that weren't there when AW penned his guide.

It is still the case that access on some of the smaller hills (Myarth
and Upper Park among others) is denied so trespassing remains the order
of the day. :-)

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

Roger said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Bernard" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

From a walker's perspective, has Blair been a success? Is the "right to
roam" providing most or all of what we want?

I think it has been very much over hyped.

I have been hill walking for more than 50 years and for all that time I
have acted as if there was a right to roam.

I'm with Roger on this one. CROW has made very little difference (if
any) to where I choose to walk. I never had any problems going where I
wanted on the hills and moorland and I've never felt the need to
frighten livestock and trample crops on farmland, where I still stick to
the paths. So what's new? I'm not sure.

I concede that right to roam may actually have helped in low lying areas
where the older definitions (or poor sight lines) of moor and fell may
not apply. It throws up some oddities though. I came across a little
parcel of land in Dovedale the other day which is now Access Land. It's
about half a kilometre across in either direction. Personally I couldn't
see much point straying from the public footpath which was already there.

Having said all that, it's perhaps not a bad idea though that people
should now where they stand (haha) with respect to access. The only
thing I'm a little wary of is that we seem to be a civilisation (sort
of) which wants rights but isn't prepared to excercise our responsibilites.

Oh back to Blair for a moment. Yes I suppose he will be remembered for
his overseas adventures - as he should be. [censored] doesn't seem to get
much credit for his social reforms in Germany - he rather blotted his
copy book.

Roy.

Roy x@y said:

Roger said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Bernard" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From a walker's perspective, has Blair been a success? Is the "right to
roam" providing most or all of what we want?

Quoted message said:

I think it has been very much over hyped.

Quoted message said:

I have been hill walking for more than 50 years and for all that time I
have acted as if there was a right to roam.

I'm with Roger on this one. CROW has made very little difference (if
any) to where I choose to walk. I never had any problems going where I
wanted on the hills and moorland and I've never felt the need to
frighten livestock and trample crops on farmland, where I still stick to
the paths. So what's new? I'm not sure.

I concede that right to roam may actually have helped in low lying areas
where the older definitions (or poor sight lines) of moor and fell may
not apply. It throws up some oddities though. I came across a little
parcel of land in Dovedale the other day which is now Access Land. It's
about half a kilometre across in either direction. Personally I couldn't
see much point straying from the public footpath which was already there.

Having said all that, it's perhaps not a bad idea though that people
should now where they stand (haha) with respect to access. The only
thing I'm a little wary of is that we seem to be a civilisation (sort
of) which wants rights but isn't prepared to excercise our responsibilites.

Oh back to Blair for a moment. Yes I suppose he will be remembered for
his overseas adventures - as he should be. [censored] doesn't seem to get
much credit for his social reforms in Germany - he rather blotted his
copy book.

Roy.

The CROW act has some interesting features, e.g. if the track you live
on had historic rights of access for vehicles, unless you personally
claim those rights, by I think 2020, you will no longer be able to
drive to your house, unless you get an easement from the land owner,
for a fee no doubt!

The NERC bill has a clause that states if cyclists have used a
footpath, without any complaints, for 20 years then they can claim it
as a cycle route.

Both acts just have not been though through logically just think of
the problems these two items will cause, if the cyclists start
claiming these footpaths as cycle routes do the councils have the
manpower to process them? Of course not!

I find the right to roam, in he Peak District, at least not a lot of
use, unless that area already has paths, especailly on the Dark Peak.

Ted
http://gpssharing.com

ted wrote

Quoted message said:

I find the right to roam, in he Peak District, at least not a lot of
use, unless that area already has paths, especailly on the Dark Peak.

I disagree. The CROW land in the White Peak is proving
very interesting. It has changed access in the Dark Peak
very little.

Chris

On Fri, 11 May 2007 12:42:08 GMT, "Chris Gilbert"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

|!ted wrote
|!
|!> I find the right to roam, in he Peak District, at least not a lot of
|!> use, unless that area already has paths, especailly on the Dark Peak.
|!
|!I disagree. The CROW land in the White Peak is proving
|!very interesting. It has changed access in the Dark Peak
|!very little.

You can now wade through knee deep peat bogs *legally*
--
Dave Fawthrop <sf hyphenologist.co.uk> 165 *Free* SF ebooks.
165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any
address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address.

Dave Fawthrop said:

On Fri, 11 May 2007 12:42:08 GMT, "Chris Gilbert"

<[email hidden]> wrote:

|!ted wrote
|!
|!> I find the right to roam, in he Peak District, at least not a lot of
|!> use, unless that area already has paths, especailly on the Dark Peak.
|!
|!I disagree. The CROW land in the White Peak is proving
|!very interesting. It has changed access in the Dark Peak
|!very little.

You can now wade through knee deep peat bogs *legally*
--
Dave Fawthrop <sf hyphenologist.co.uk> 165 *Free* SF ebooks.
165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberghttp://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_PageCompletely Free to any
address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address.

Yup, been there, done it. I have no intention of ever doing it agin,
until next time of course.

Ted
http://gpssharing.com

Ysgrifennodd "Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> mewn neges
newyddion:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bernard said:

From a walker's perspective, has Blair been a success? Is the "right to
roam" providing most or all of what we want?

Speaking as someone living in part of the UK where it's been done much,
much, much better, IMHO the "right to roam" available south of the border
is a half-baked nonsense AFAICT.

And of course the Scottish access legislation has nothing really to do
with Mr. Blair. As with the smoking ban, the Scottish Executive got on
with doing a reasonable job of it while the folk down in Westminster were
moaning it couldn't be done.

So I'm more likely to remember TB for getting us into pointless wars...

Pete.

You've got the legal right to wild camp too, which is something that should
have been legistlated here, west of the border too! Not that it'd change my
habits. I'll still go wild camping where i think it's reasonable to do so.

Haven't they got the smoking ban in place in England yet? Now it's in here,
it feels like it's always been in place.

Tony, well, he's messed up by the company he keeps. Like a schoolboy who's
got involved with the school bully to improve his own standing and got a bit
out of his depth.

T Dave R

Dave Fawthrop <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 11 May 2007 12:42:08 GMT, "Chris Gilbert"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

|!ted wrote
|!
|!> I find the right to roam, in he Peak District, at least not a lot of
|!> use, unless that area already has paths, especailly on the Dark Peak.
|!
|!I disagree. The CROW land in the White Peak is proving
|!very interesting. It has changed access in the Dark Peak
|!very little.

You can now wade through knee deep peat bogs *legally*

Or flounder over 2ft high tussocks of coarse grass.
--
Gordon H
(Remove invalid to email)

On Sat, 12 May 2007 01:19:54 +0100, Gordon H
<[email hidden]> wrote:

|!Dave Fawthrop <[email hidden]> writes
|!>On Fri, 11 May 2007 12:42:08 GMT, "Chris Gilbert"
|!><[email hidden]> wrote:
|!>
|!>|!ted wrote
|!>|!
|!>|!> I find the right to roam, in he Peak District, at least not a lot of
|!>|!> use, unless that area already has paths, especailly on the Dark Peak.
|!>|!
|!>|!I disagree. The CROW land in the White Peak is proving
|!>|!very interesting. It has changed access in the Dark Peak
|!>|!very little.
|!>
|!>You can now wade through knee deep peat bogs *legally*
|!
|!Or flounder over 2ft high tussocks of coarse grass.

Just jump from tussock to tussock, but you have to be younger and more
agile than I am ATM to do that,

More realistically, wait for a long drought, as is forecast for this
summer. Then you can walk normally. I have *once* been up there when
the boggy bits were dry and cracked.
--
Dave Fawthrop <sf hyphenologist.co.uk> 165 *Free* SF ebooks.
165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any
address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address.

Dave Fawthrop said:

On Sat, 12 May 2007 01:19:54 +0100, Gordon H

<[email hidden]> wrote:

|!Dave Fawthrop <[email hidden]> writes
|!>On Fri, 11 May 2007 12:42:08 GMT, "Chris Gilbert"|!><[email hidden]> wrote:

|!>
|!>|!ted wrote
|!>|!
|!>|!> I find the right to roam, in he Peak District, at least not a lot of
|!>|!> use, unless that area already has paths, especailly on the Dark Peak.
|!>|!
|!>|!I disagree. The CROW land in the White Peak is proving
|!>|!very interesting. It has changed access in the Dark Peak
|!>|!very little.
|!>
|!>You can now wade through knee deep peat bogs *legally*
|!
|!Or flounder over 2ft high tussocks of coarse grass.

Just jump from tussock to tussock, but you have to be younger and more
agile than I am ATM to do that,

More realistically, wait for a long drought, as is forecast for this
summer. Then you can walk normally. I have *once* been up there when
the boggy bits were dry and cracked.
--
Dave Fawthrop <sf hyphenologist.co.uk> 165 *Free* SF ebooks.
165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberghttp://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_PageCompletely Free to any
address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address.

Ahh but when I was young we had snow, 'crossing' the snow filled
groughs was 'fun', but we never actually lost any one!

Ted
http://gpssharing.com

Dave Fawthrop <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Just jump from tussock to tussock, but you have to be younger and more
agile than I am ATM to do that,

More realistically, wait for a long drought, as is forecast for this
summer. Then you can walk normally. I have *once* been up there when
the boggy bits were dry and cracked.

On Friday 4th May, it was lovely dry stuff over Higher Shelf Stones and
Bleaklow after four dry weeks. :-)
--
Gordon H
(Remove invalid to email)

In article <[email hidden]>, Gordon H
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Dave Fawthrop <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Just jump from tussock to tussock, but you have to be younger and more
agile than I am ATM to do that,

More realistically, wait for a long drought, as is forecast for this
summer. Then you can walk normally. I have *once* been up there when
the boggy bits were dry and cracked.

On Friday 4th May, it was lovely dry stuff over Higher Shelf Stones and
Bleaklow after four dry weeks. :-)

Kinder was lovely on Monday 7th until the heavens opened late afternoon.
Then the air got a bit soggy but the ground lapped it up!

--

Dominic Sexton

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Reid said:

thats interesting. When I think about walking in Scotland I
automatically think about restrictions and phonecalls to keepers, in
England I just get on with it. Thats of course largely due to the land
use. How do you see Scotland as being in a better position?

I have a full legal right to go pretty much anywhere I please. Stalking
restrictions are not a hard limit against me, just a case of mutually
beneficial consideration.

I'd take issue with that! Actually the Scottish "right to roam" reforms have
not given you any better access. IMO

As for Stalking what limitations were imposed before this new legislation?
None. Only advise!
--
Craven and Pendle Birds:
Bird watching in and around Craven & Pendle.
North Yorkshire and East Lancashire.
http://craven-and-pendle-birding.org/

"Bernard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From a walker's perspective, has Blair been a success? Is the "right to
roam" providing most or all of what we want?

No! Nothing as actually changed except "new laws" that aren't actually that
helpful for the walking public

Quoted message said:

When the legislation came out a few years ago, it seemed to me to be a
"dogs breakfast" designed to create an illusion of progress, however it
does seem to working on the whole. There are however some areas where the
"right to roam" has been negated by the farmers "right to put fences up in
seemingly random places".

Certainly true! Nothing has changed. Farmers are still either for or against
walkers on "their" land. I'd, have preferred the status quo;-) I never
seemed to have problems then;-) I do now:-(

A good gimmick though for Blair and his ilk to get votes;-) John Smith is
sadly missed:-( Blair was/is a usurper of his turning around the "socialist"
party. He will be turning in his grave:-(
--
Craven and Pendle Birds:
Bird watching in and around Craven & Pendle.
North Yorkshire and East Lancashire.
http://craven-and-pendle-birding.org/

The message <[email hidden]>
from The Reid <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

How do you see Scotland as being in a better position?
--

Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, that's how!
Richard