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Biking in a controlled environment

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Mountain Bikes
Published
22 January 2005
Last activity
24 January 2005
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Scott
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  1. Biking in a controlled environment
    By Sal Ruibal, USA TODAY
    Ray Petro got fed up trying to ride his mountain bike in Cleveland's wintry
    conditions, so he took the mountains indoors.
    The result is Ray's MTB Indoor Park, a 66,000-square-foot playground that
    gives snow-challenged riders an opportunity to hone their skills on a
    remarkable structure that looks more like a wooden roller coaster than an
    Alpine trail.

    "Way back in the fall of 1996, I got frustrated with the bad riding
    conditions here," he says. "So I started looking for a big, clean place with
    low rent."

    He finally found such a place - a vacant building in the Walford Industrial
    Park near Lake Erie - in September and began laying the groundwork for his
    dream.

    "I thought about trucking in a lot of dirt, but soon discovered that it
    would be a lot cheaper to build it out of wood instead," he says.

    He set up a Web site to let other riders know of his plans. To his surprise,
    a dozen eager cyclists showed up to help him design and build the course.

    That group of volunteers - they worked for food, soda pop and the right to
    ride for free - sawed, hammered and nailed nearly every day since September.

    The serpentine structure is more than a quarter-mile in circumference and
    was inspired by structures built by "freeride" mountain bikers in British
    Columbia's rain forests.

    Riders negotiate a wooden maze that can narrow to just a few inches, then
    suddenly drop several feet to a platform that leads to a see-saw contraption
    or a pile of real boulders.

    The indoor mountain has different sections for skill levels that range from
    rank beginner to pro racer.

    "It may not look like it," Petro says, "but you can get in a hard workout.
    After an hour or 90 minutes, you're beat."

    Injuries have been minor, "just nine stitches," Petro says. More experienced
    riders help school newbies and assist with equipment problems.

    The park's Web site (www.raysmtb.com) has received more than 1.5 million
    hits, and about 800 riders have paid the $10 daily fee, with more expected
    as Cleveland accumulates its yearly average of 50 inches of snow.

    Petro has received inquiries about building similar parks in other cities,
    but he prefers to stay true to the volunteer spirit that built his dream.

    "I'd be glad to get paid to help someone start up a facility in, say, New
    York City," he says. "I have to make a living. But I don't want to become
    the Burger King of mountain biking."

  2. Scott wrote:

    (snip article)

    Quoted message said:


    ......and about 800 riders have paid the $10 daily fee, with
    more expected as Cleveland accumulates its yearly average of 50
    inches of snow.


    That's a whopping $8K of gross income. I can't imagine that covers the
    utilities for a 66 thousand sq ft facility. Real mountain biking or not,
    Ray's doesn't appear to have a functioning business model.

    Quoted message said:

    "I'd be glad to get paid to help someone start up a facility in, say, New
    York City," he says. "I have to make a living. But I don't want to become
    the Burger King of mountain biking."

    I'm guessing he won't have to worry about that.

    Tom

  3. tcmedara said:

    Scott wrote:

    (snip article)

    Quoted message said:


    ......and about 800 riders have paid the $10 daily fee, with
    more expected as Cleveland accumulates its yearly average of 50
    inches of snow.


    That's a whopping $8K of gross income. I can't imagine that covers


    the

    Quoted message said:

    utilities for a 66 thousand sq ft facility. Real mountain biking or


    not,

    Quoted message said:

    Ray's doesn't appear to have a functioning business model.

    Maybe you should look at the website and see the actual cost. Also
    factor in membership fees. $8k is too low of a figure. If half of
    riders in the article are members, you could add over $31k to that.
    Admission by non-members is $15.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "I'd be glad to get paid to help someone start up a facility in,


    say, New

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    York City," he says. "I have to make a living. But I don't want to


    become

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the Burger King of mountain biking."

    I'm guessing he won't have to worry about that.


    You may want to get all the facts first.

  4. Ray's is all over the news in the MTB'ing community here in the tri
    state area (PA, OH, NY). Dirt Rag is featuring it in their next issue
    and I heard that one of the other major magazines has featured it in
    one of their issues. I spoke to one of the main designers of the park
    and he offered me a free one day pass. I think I'll stick to riding in
    the snow.

  5. tcmedara said:

    Scott wrote:

    (snip article)

    Quoted message said:

    ......and about 800 riders have paid the $10 daily fee, with
    more expected as Cleveland accumulates its yearly average of 50
    inches of snow.

    That's a whopping $8K of gross income. I can't imagine that covers the
    utilities for a 66 thousand sq ft facility. Real mountain biking or not,
    Ray's doesn't appear to have a functioning business model.

    My point exactly! I said this when they first mentioned this monstrosity.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "I'd be glad to get paid to help someone start up a facility in, say, New
    York City," he says. "I have to make a living. But I don't want to become
    the Burger King of mountain biking."

    I'm guessing he won't have to worry about that.

    He won't, since it's not Mountain Biking!

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

  6. Scott said:


    "Way back in the fall of 1996, I got frustrated with the bad riding
    conditions here," he says. "So I started looking for a big, clean place with
    low rent."

    He finally found such a place - a vacant building in the Walford Industrial
    Park near Lake Erie - in September and began laying the groundwork for his
    dream.

    Eleven years to find a place to build? And these are better riding
    conditions? .25 miles of wood?

    Quoted message said:


    Riders negotiate a wooden maze that can narrow to just a few inches, then
    suddenly drop several feet to a platform that leads to a see-saw contraption
    or a pile of real boulders.

    Real boulders. {Donkey Voice} Is that your boulder? That's a nice
    boulder! {End Donkey Voice}

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

  7. Quoted message said:
    tcmedara said:

    Scott wrote:

    (snip article)

    Quoted message said:


    ......and about 800 riders have paid the $10 daily fee, with
    more expected as Cleveland accumulates its yearly average of 50
    inches of snow.


    That's a whopping $8K of gross income. I can't imagine that
    covers the utilities for a 66 thousand sq ft facility. Real
    mountain biking or not, Ray's doesn't appear to have a functioning
    business model.

    Maybe you should look at the website and see the actual cost. Also
    factor in membership fees. $8k is too low of a figure. If half of
    riders in the article are members, you could add over $31k to that.
    Admission by non-members is $15.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "I'd be glad to get paid to help someone start up a facility in,
    say, New York City," he says. "I have to make a living. But I don't
    want to become the Burger King of mountain biking."

    I'm guessing he won't have to worry about that.


    You may want to get all the facts first.

    I don't care either way. I sincerely wish the guy the best, but the USA
    today articles facts don't really point to a successful business
    proposition. If there's more to it, then good for him. Even with the
    figures you cite, I wonder how long he's gonna last. Insurance (gotta be a
    huge liability premium), employees, rent, advertising, HVAC for a huge
    (probably pretty uninsulated) space, maintenance, supplies/materials........
    He's got his work cut out for him. I wouldn't be surprised if he's dropping
    40K a month just to keep the doors open. The riding has no appeal to me at
    all, but I'm curious to see if he can manage to make it a successful
    business proposition.

    Tom

  8. "tcmedara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:0muId.87023$Jk5.17878@lakeread01...

    Quoted message said:

    Scott wrote:

    (snip article)

    Quoted message said:


    ......and about 800 riders have paid the $10 daily fee, with
    more expected as Cleveland accumulates its yearly average of 50
    inches of snow.


    That's a whopping $8K of gross income. I can't imagine that covers the
    utilities for a 66 thousand sq ft facility. Real mountain biking or not,
    Ray's doesn't appear to have a functioning business model.

    Quoted message said:

    "I'd be glad to get paid to help someone start up a facility in, say, New
    York City," he says. "I have to make a living. But I don't want to become
    the Burger King of mountain biking."

    I'm guessing he won't have to worry about that.

    Tom


    Those figures are not only inaccurate but you also jump to too many
    conclusions to fast. There are a plethora of other things that are
    profitable within this timeframe. Not only that but business models can
    function positive or negative. You idea is inferior.

  9. "Ride-A-Lot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Scott said:


    "Way back in the fall of 1996, I got frustrated with the bad riding
    conditions here," he says. "So I started looking for a big, clean place
    with low rent."

    He finally found such a place - a vacant building in the Walford
    Industrial Park near Lake Erie - in September and began laying the
    groundwork for his dream.

    Eleven years to find a place to build? And these are better riding
    conditions? .25 miles of wood?

    Quoted message said:


    Riders negotiate a wooden maze that can narrow to just a few inches, then
    suddenly drop several feet to a platform that leads to a see-saw
    contraption or a pile of real boulders.

    Real boulders. {Donkey Voice} Is that your boulder? That's a nice
    boulder! {End Donkey Voice}

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

    Your ideas are inferior as well. Please look deeper you are missing a lot.

  10. Scott said:

    "Ride-A-Lot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Scott said:

    "Way back in the fall of 1996, I got frustrated with the bad riding
    conditions here," he says. "So I started looking for a big, clean place
    with low rent."

    He finally found such a place - a vacant building in the Walford
    Industrial Park near Lake Erie - in September and began laying the
    groundwork for his dream.

    Eleven years to find a place to build? And these are better riding
    conditions? .25 miles of wood?

    Quoted message said:

    Riders negotiate a wooden maze that can narrow to just a few inches, then
    suddenly drop several feet to a platform that leads to a see-saw
    contraption or a pile of real boulders.

    Real boulders. {Donkey Voice} Is that your boulder? That's a nice
    boulder! {End Donkey Voice}

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

    Your ideas are inferior as well. Please look deeper you are missing a lot.

    Huh? WHere did I mention inferior?

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

  11. "Ride-A-Lot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Scott said:

    "Ride-A-Lot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Scott wrote:

    >"Way back in the fall of 1996, I got frustrated with the bad riding
    >conditions here," he says. "So I started looking for a big, clean place
    >with low rent."
    >
    >He finally found such a place - a vacant building in the Walford
    >Industrial Park near Lake Erie - in September and began laying the
    >groundwork for his dream.

    Eleven years to find a place to build? And these are better riding
    conditions? .25 miles of wood?

    >Riders negotiate a wooden maze that can narrow to just a few inches,
    >then suddenly drop several feet to a platform that leads to a see-saw
    >contraption or a pile of real boulders.

    Real boulders. {Donkey Voice} Is that your boulder? That's a nice
    boulder! {End Donkey Voice}

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

    Your ideas are inferior as well. Please look deeper you are missing a
    lot.

    Huh? WHere did I mention inferior?

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

    Nice one! Boy's club for you too lol.
    weenftp.orgboy's%20club.mp3

  12. tcmedara said:
    Quoted message said:
    tcmedara said:

    Scott wrote:

    (snip article)
    >
    > ......and about 800 riders have paid the $10 daily fee, with
    > more expected as Cleveland accumulates its yearly average of 50
    > inches of snow.
    That's a whopping $8K of gross income. I can't imagine that
    covers the utilities for a 66 thousand sq ft facility. Real
    mountain biking or not, Ray's doesn't appear to have a functioning
    business model.

    Maybe you should look at the website and see the actual cost. Also
    factor in membership fees. $8k is too low of a figure. If half of
    riders in the article are members, you could add over $31k to that.
    Admission by non-members is $15.

    Quoted message said:

    > "I'd be glad to get paid to help someone start up a facility in,
    > say, New York City," he says. "I have to make a living. But I


    don't

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > want to become the Burger King of mountain biking."

    I'm guessing he won't have to worry about that.


    You may want to get all the facts first.

    I don't care either way. I sincerely wish the guy the best, but the


    USA

    Quoted message said:

    today articles facts don't really point to a successful business
    proposition.<snip>


    That's the problem with USA today, getting the facts straight.

  13. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    tcmedara said:
    Quoted message said:

    tcmedara wrote:
    > Scott wrote:
    >
    > (snip article)
    >>
    >> ......and about 800 riders have paid the $10 daily fee, with
    >> more expected as Cleveland accumulates its yearly average of 50
    >> inches of snow.
    > That's a whopping $8K of gross income. I can't imagine that
    > covers the utilities for a 66 thousand sq ft facility. Real
    > mountain biking or not, Ray's doesn't appear to have a functioning
    > business model.

    Maybe you should look at the website and see the actual cost. Also
    factor in membership fees. $8k is too low of a figure. If half of
    riders in the article are members, you could add over $31k to that.
    Admission by non-members is $15.

    >> "I'd be glad to get paid to help someone start up a facility in,
    >> say, New York City," he says. "I have to make a living. But I


    don't

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> want to become the Burger King of mountain biking."
    >
    > I'm guessing he won't have to worry about that.
    You may want to get all the facts first.

    I don't care either way. I sincerely wish the guy the best, but the


    USA

    Quoted message said:

    today articles facts don't really point to a successful business
    proposition.<snip>


    That's the problem with USA today, getting the facts straight.

    True for most of us. I gotta agree.

  14. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Ray's is all over the news in the MTB'ing community here in the tri
    state area (PA, OH, NY). Dirt Rag is featuring it in their next issue
    and I heard that one of the other major magazines has featured it in
    one of their issues. I spoke to one of the main designers of the park
    and he offered me a free one day pass. I think I'll stick to riding in
    the snow.

    Give it a shot you have nothing to lose. Or just come up to the free Rythem
    Jump Contest Feb 5th. Aaron Chase, JeffLenowski, Joe Prisel, and many other
    top pros will be there. They are all really down to earth and cool guys.
    Jeff gave me a lot of help last Thursday night. What a great guy. I think
    the foam pit will be finished today. I am heading there now and if it is I
    am going to start trying to learn how to backflip. Man the pro's are always
    ready to lend a hand and teach! If you are in the area come on out to the
    HiFi club after 10 PM and drink with us!

  15. Scott said:

    "Ride-A-Lot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Scott said:

    "Ride-A-Lot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >Scott wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>"Way back in the fall of 1996, I got frustrated with the bad riding
    >>conditions here," he says. "So I started looking for a big, clean place
    >>with low rent."
    >>
    >>He finally found such a place - a vacant building in the Walford
    >>Industrial Park near Lake Erie - in September and began laying the
    >>groundwork for his dream.
    >
    >Eleven years to find a place to build? And these are better riding
    >conditions? .25 miles of wood?
    >
    >
    >
    >>Riders negotiate a wooden maze that can narrow to just a few inches,
    >>then suddenly drop several feet to a platform that leads to a see-saw
    >>contraption or a pile of real boulders.
    >
    >Real boulders. {Donkey Voice} Is that your boulder? That's a nice
    >boulder! {End Donkey Voice}
    >
    >
    >--
    >o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    >www.schnauzers.ws

    Your ideas are inferior as well. Please look deeper you are missing a
    lot.

    Huh? WHere did I mention inferior?

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

    Nice one! Boy's club for you too lol.
    weenftp.orgboy's%20club.mp3

    Is that you singing?

    LOL!

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

  16. "Ride-A-Lot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Scott said:

    "Ride-A-Lot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Scott wrote:

    >"Ride-A-Lot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >
    >>Scott wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>"Way back in the fall of 1996, I got frustrated with the bad riding
    >>>conditions here," he says. "So I started looking for a big, clean
    >>>place with low rent."
    >>>
    >>>He finally found such a place - a vacant building in the Walford
    >>>Industrial Park near Lake Erie - in September and began laying the
    >>>groundwork for his dream.
    >>
    >>Eleven years to find a place to build? And these are better riding
    >>conditions? .25 miles of wood?
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>Riders negotiate a wooden maze that can narrow to just a few inches,
    >>>then suddenly drop several feet to a platform that leads to a see-saw
    >>>contraption or a pile of real boulders.
    >>
    >>Real boulders. {Donkey Voice} Is that your boulder? That's a nice
    >>boulder! {End Donkey Voice}
    >>
    >>
    >>--
    >>o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    >>www.schnauzers.ws
    >
    >
    >Your ideas are inferior as well. Please look deeper you are missing a
    >lot.

    Huh? WHere did I mention inferior?

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

    Nice one! Boy's club for you too lol.
    weenftp.orgboy's%20club.mp3

    Is that you singing?

    LOL!

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

    Ahhh you got me! Ya ya yeah ya yeah talk'in bout Boy's Club Boys Club!

    I live in ghey area this is the cities theme song...
    http://www.weenftp.org/ween/Various%20Singles/The%20Rainbow%20DEMO%20version%20-%20Chef%20Aid.mp3

  17. Scott said:

    "tcmedara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:0muId.87023$Jk5.17878@lakeread01...

    Quoted message said:

    Scott wrote:

    (snip article)

    Quoted message said:


    ......and about 800 riders have paid the $10 daily fee, with
    more expected as Cleveland accumulates its yearly average of 50
    inches of snow.


    That's a whopping $8K of gross income. I can't imagine that covers
    the utilities for a 66 thousand sq ft facility. Real mountain
    biking or not, Ray's doesn't appear to have a functioning business
    model.

    Quoted message said:

    "I'd be glad to get paid to help someone start up a facility in,
    say, New York City," he says. "I have to make a living. But I don't
    want to become the Burger King of mountain biking."

    I'm guessing he won't have to worry about that.

    Tom


    Those figures are not only inaccurate but you also jump to too many
    conclusions to fast. There are a plethora of other things that are
    profitable within this timeframe. Not only that but business models
    can function positive or negative. You idea is inferior.

    The only "idea" I'm espousing here is that in order for a business to be a
    sucess its income needs to exceed expenses. If the USA today facts are
    inaccurate, then I will await better information. None the less, the
    expenses of operating a 66K sq ft facility in the dead of winter are gonna
    be a challenge anyway you slice it. Not sure what you mean by functioning
    "positive or negative", but either way he's gonna have to function with a
    positive cash flow at some point. If not, he'd better have a pretty big
    trust fund to blow. I'm wondering how many daily passes and memberships
    he's gonna have to sell to make money.

    The dude's obviously got a good bit of scratch invested in the operation. I
    really wish him the best, I just have my doubts that it can be sustained
    financially.

    Tom

  18. Quoted message said:
    tcmedara said:

    Scott wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    (snip article)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    ......and about 800 riders have paid the $10 daily fee, with
    more expected as Cleveland accumulates its yearly average of 50
    inches of snow.


    That's a whopping $8K of gross income. I can't imagine that
    covers the utilities for a 66 thousand sq ft facility. Real
    mountain biking or not, Ray's doesn't appear to have a functioning
    business model.

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe you should look at the website and see the actual cost. Also
    factor in membership fees. $8k is too low of a figure. If half of
    riders in the article are members, you could add over $31k to that.
    Admission by non-members is $15.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "I'd be glad to get paid to help someone start up a facility in,
    say, New York City," he says. "I have to make a living. But I don't
    want to become the Burger King of mountain biking."

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm guessing he won't have to worry about that.


    You may want to get all the facts first.

    Quoted message said:

    I don't care either way.

    I'm sure they don't care what you think either. Any way you look at
    it, if you plug the figures into the Tom Medara equation that you use
    on everything else, it wouldn't be worth your money to spend on tolls
    and admission to travel to Cleveland.

  19. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I'm sure they don't care what you think either. Any way you look at
    it, if you plug the figures into the Tom Medara equation that you use
    on everything else, it wouldn't be worth your money to spend on tolls
    and admission to travel to Cleveland.

    Even if he made it there, he'd [censored] and whine at the door that it cost too
    much

  20. The Jester said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I'm sure they don't care what you think either. Any way you look at
    it, if you plug the figures into the Tom Medara equation that you use
    on everything else, it wouldn't be worth your money to spend on tolls
    and admission to travel to Cleveland.

    Even if he made it there, he'd [censored] and whine at the door that it cost too
    much

    What rock did you come out from under? There are an abundance or [censored]
    clones lately.

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

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