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Bikes on Northern Trains

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01 / Original postBikes on Northern TrainsDDEckerslyke · 23 Apr 2006 02 / This pagePosts 1–12Page 1 of 1 · chronological order 03 / Latest replyPost #12wildnorthlands · 24 May 2006

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Original section
UK and Europe
Published
23 April 2006
Last activity
24 May 2006
Original author
DDEckerslyke
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12
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Folding bikes

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  1. Original post
    DDEckerslyke
    Archived post
    #1

    Hi

    For 3½ years my journey to work has been cycle to train station, put my bike
    on the train, then cycle at the other end. Last month the train company,
    Northern, apparently after there were problems with "gangs" of BMXers
    attempting to board their trains, issued the following guidance to their
    conductors:

    "Following recent incidents, regarding the number of cycles attempting to
    board our trains, I have raised the matter with the safety section. The
    company policy is that we accept 2 cycles per unit. Conductors are expected
    to apply this rule consistently."

    This is accompanied by a photocopy of the Northern section of the Cycling by
    Train leaflet which states

    "Most Northern services have space for two cycles." This is like saying
    "Most Northern trains have pink windows." It's simply not true as it's
    worded. But anyway...

    Firstly the safety aspect is demonstrably BS. For instance a "unit" may
    consist of one carriage in which case two bikes is reasonable but a "unit"
    may also consist of two or three (or more) of this type of carriage but
    somehow there is still only safely room for two bikes? Also some trains
    split and/or join together. Separately they have room for four or six (or
    more) bikes but when they join then somehow there is only room for two
    bikes. (I should say that the trains are not overcrowded - in fact they are
    not crowded at all. There is plenty of room for passengers and cyclists.)

    Anyway as you can imagine this is causing all sorts of problems. Personally
    speaking I used to be able to leave the house at 7:00, 7:10, or even 7:25.
    Now I'm having to leave at about 6:55 to try and be one of the first two on
    the train. This means I don't get to see my kids in the morning and,
    speaking frankly, I miss them. Also in the evening when I leave work I have
    no idea when I'm going to be home. This also causes problems as we can't
    organise who'll be where and when for swimming lessons, Beavers, Rainbows
    etc.

    The "conductors" seem generally reluctant to enforce this rule but roughly
    once a week someone will be a Jobsworth about it. This is the real problem
    and I was wondering:

    1) What to do when confronted with a Jobsworth?
    Removing the front and back wheels and lowering the seat means I can get the
    frame and wheels in the luggage rack. After an argument and occasionally
    support from fellow cyclists/passengers I've usually got on doing this. I
    was wondering whether legally a frame and two wheels is the same as a
    bicycle? AFAICS at that point it becomes luggage. If I wanted to be really
    awkward/technical I could give (or take if I was one of the first two on)
    the wheels to (or from) another passenger at which point they become his (or
    my) luggage which is unrestricted and I (or they) just have a frame which is
    also unrestricted. If they persist in not letting me/us on is there anything
    I can do from a legal point of view? To me it seems that to refusal in these
    circumstances is like refusing someone because they have luggage. What if
    they threaten to call the police? Should I/we call their bluff and see what
    happens. There's an older guy, who looks about 55 or 60, who seems
    determined to take a stand and says next time he is going to refuse to get
    off.

    2) What's the best way of trying to get back to the old system which worked
    for everyone for three years or (much) longer?
    The point being that if we kick up a fuss then the managers may well dig in
    their heels and *really* enforce the rules. Then we really would be
    buggered. I've contacted Northern and their Customer Services were
    appalling.

    Any advice gratefully received

    cheers

    dd

    Report
  2. David Hansen
    Archived post
    #2

    On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:00:07 +0100 someone who may be "DDEckerslyke"
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    "Following recent incidents, regarding the number of cycles attempting to
    board our trains, I have raised the matter with the safety section. The
    company policy is that we accept 2 cycles per unit. Conductors are expected
    to apply this rule consistently."

    A unit is a specific term. It may consist of one or more coaches,
    but it is one unit. The number of bike spaces in a unit varies
    depending on the particular design, two is a minimum.

    Quoted message said:

    Firstly the safety aspect is demonstrably BS.

    Debatable. You need to convince the Railway Inspectorate that their
    rules regarding the carriage of bikes on trains are rubbish. Many
    have tried and they have made some changes. However, it remains a
    big frustration for many. The more people that point out the flaws
    in their arguments the better.

    Quoted message said:

    For instance a "unit" may
    consist of one carriage in which case two bikes is reasonable but a "unit"
    may also consist of two or three (or more) of this type of carriage but
    somehow there is still only safely room for two bikes?

    That is the case, because the internal layout in each coach of the
    unit is unlikely to be the same. As a minimum the unit will have two
    spaces for bikes that confirm with the Railway Inspectorate's
    requirements. There may be more, but that depends on the particular
    unit.

    Quoted message said:

    Separately they have room for four or six (or
    more) bikes but when they join then somehow there is only room for two
    bikes.

    If the train consists of two or more units then each unit should be
    able to take a minimum of two bikes. If staff are claiming two bikes
    per train then they are wrong if the train consists of more than one
    unit. The easy way to tell what is a unit is that the outer ends of
    a unit have yellow warning panels.

    Quoted message said:

    2) What's the best way of trying to get back to the old system which worked
    for everyone for three years or (much) longer?

    Have you contacted what used to be called the Rail Passenger's
    Council, now Passengerfocus, the "official" passenger
    representatives? Have you contacted Railfuture, the "unofficial"
    passenger representatives? Have you contacted any local user group?

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh
    I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

    Report
  3. Mark Thompson
    Archived post
    #3
    Quoted message said:

    1) What to do when confronted with a Jobsworth?

    Look him in the eye, then continue looking him in the eye as you place
    bicycle in a sack. Carry the luggage onto the train.

    If you don't want to be confrontational then start with it in the sack.
    This is probably better as it means even if there's only one other on
    the train, cyclists further down the line will not be inconvenienced.

    But do all the other stuff and write letters etc, as making bicycle
    luggage won't get it changed.

    Mark

    --
    posting from Google Groups - please tell me if there's a problem with
    the post.

    Report
  4. Tony Raven
    Archived post
    #4
    DDEckerslyke said:


    Any advice gratefully received

    You could try this trick out
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,173-2142266,00.html
    or get a Brompton

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

    Report
  5. vernon
    Archived post
    #5

    "DDEckerslyke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Any advice gratefully received


    A folding bike is the answer. No
    arguments/disputes/confrontations/refusals/ill will etc.

    Some train operating companies are very strict in their enforcement of the
    bicycle carriage rules. Scot Rail springs to mind - I was asked twice for
    evidence of a ticket for my bike before I got onto the train and knowing
    that they only allow two bike per train my heart sank when i saw two cyclist
    wheel their bikes onto the train i was about to catch. However, the train
    comprised two units and there was room for me in the second unit - common
    sense prevailed.

    I'm not sure what a confrontation would lead to - perhaps a refusal on the
    guard's part to allow the train to proceed until the number of bikes on the
    train were acceptable to the guard?

    Good luck with your campaign.

    Report
  6. David Hansen
    Archived post
    #6

    On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:25:20 +0100 someone who may be "vernon"
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    Some train operating companies are very strict in their enforcement of the
    bicycle carriage rules. Scot Rail springs to mind - I was asked twice for
    evidence of a ticket for my bike before I got onto the train and knowing
    that they only allow two bike per train

    Not a rule that I have ever noted. However, they do have a rule
    about two bikes per unit, unless the unit has more spaces or is in
    Strathclyde.

    As elsewhere staff are good, bad and indifferent. Some staff do
    appear to ease their worthless lives by being anti-cyclist, while
    being welcoming to passengers with large cases, rucksacks and prams.
    Several of these jobsworths have been ground down by pressure
    exerted by various means, though there are still some around.
    However, most treat these rules with the contempt they deserve,
    because they believe happy customers are more likely to be repeat
    customers.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh
    I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

    Report
  7. BigRab
    Archived post
    #7

    "South Eastern said that overcrowded trains could be delayed by the
    extra time taken to load and unload bikes"

    Aye and maybe if there were no passengers then they would always be on
    time eh?

    BigRab

    Report
  8. BigRab
    Archived post
    #8

    "South Eastern said that overcrowded trains could be delayed by the
    extra time taken to load and unload bikes"

    Aye and maybe if there were no passengers then they would always be on
    time eh?

    BigRab

    Report
  9. Tony Raven
    Archived post
    #9
    BigRab said:


    Aye and maybe if there were no passengers then they would always be on
    time eh?

    There speaks an optimist ;-) Its a bit like a Zen koan. If a train
    runs late but there are no passengers around to notice is anyone bothered?

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

    Report
  10. Phil Cook
    Archived post
    #10
    BigRab said:

    "South Eastern said that overcrowded trains could be delayed

    This post has been delayed eight seconds later than the previous one
    :-)
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

    Report
  11. DDEckerslyke
    Archived post
    #11

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    If the train consists of two or more units then each unit should be
    able to take a minimum of two bikes. If staff are claiming two bikes
    per train then they are wrong if the train consists of more than one
    unit. The easy way to tell what is a unit is that the outer ends of
    a unit have yellow warning panels.

    This whole reply was very useful and this bit in particular.

    Many thanks

    dd

    Report
  12. wildnorthlands
    Archived post
    #12

    Sorry, I have only just caught up with this thread. Northern Rail has a
    Cycle Forum and its Chair is Paul Salveson. I have been raising this
    issue over the past two meetings and pleading with them to give their
    conductors more flexibility, so far without success, and the other
    members of the forum don't seem too bothered, although we are getting
    the Rolling Stock manager to come along next time to explain the
    situation . Any support that can be given, by writing letters etc,
    (perhaps to your MP?) would be appreciated.

    Simon

    Report

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