Bikes in public malls

"Tim McTeague" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

This morning I was a bit later than usual and a few more stores were opening up and the rent-a-cop
told me bicycles were not allowed here. I informed him that state law allows bikes on all public

Were you on a street (with cars) or on a sidewalk (with pedestrians)? Banning bicycles from
sidewalks makes sense. Banning bicycles from private streets may or may not be legal; check your
state or city laws. For some reason, you did not specify where this occurred. Whether or not it is
legal, it is pretty stupid.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:42:22 -0500, "Tim McTeague" <[email hidden]>

from said:

Any legal eagles out there. Nearby we have a fairly new shopping area that is one of those attempts
to recreate the old fashioned shop filled streets of days gone by, or at least remembered from old
movies. Not a covered mall, but an open area with a fancy fountain, sculptures, benchs and trendy
stores. OK, it's "The Avenue at White Marsh" in Baltimore. Complete with piped in Muzak at every
corner, no need for authentic buskers here, they try to really set a mood, kind of a white-bread
bland, cookie cutter mood, but a mood none the less. Last year I was told that my dog was not
allowed and I pointed out that they had a prominent life sized sculpture of a child playing with a
dog but they failed to see the irony. Anyway, sometimes I take my early AM Sunday ride through this
area as it is pretty well deserted and I can check it out without the crowds. The only shops being
open are the coffee and bagel sort. This morning I was a bit later than usual and a few more stores
were opening up and the rent-a-cop told me bicycles were not allowed here. I informed him that
state law allows bikes on all public roads save highways and interstates. He informed me it was
private property and I told him that bicyclists spend money too and I would take mine elsewhere.
Not that I was going to buy a bagel but you never know, lots of bike riders like to stop for that
kind of thing. So, at what point do private malls, that allow, and encourage, the public to attend
them, get to pick and choose their choice of vehicle? You just know they would allow a Segway on
the sidewalk as that would be oh so trendy. It's not a big deal as I seldom ride there but it did
sort of tick me off.

Ignore rental pigs. Wait for the real thing.

--
real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com
Am I elected yet?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tim McTeague said:

Any legal eagles out there. Nearby we have a fairly new shopping area that is one of those attempts
to recreate the old fashioned shop filled streets of days gone by, or at least remembered from old
movies. Not a covered mall, but an open area with a fancy fountain, sculptures, benchs and trendy
stores. OK, it's "The Avenue at White Marsh" in Baltimore. Complete with piped in Muzak at every
corner, no need for authentic buskers here, they try to really set a mood, kind of a white-bread
bland, cookie cutter mood, but a mood none the less. Last year I was told that my dog was not
allowed and I pointed out that they had a prominent life sized sculpture of a child playing with a
dog but they failed to see the irony. Anyway, sometimes I take my early AM Sunday ride through this
area as it is pretty well deserted and I can check it out without the crowds. The only shops being
open are the coffee and bagel sort. This morning I was a bit later than usual and a few more stores
were opening up and the rent-a-cop told me bicycles were not allowed here. I informed him that
state law allows bikes on all public roads save highways and interstates. He informed me it was
private property and I told him that bicyclists spend money too and I would take mine elsewhere.
Not that I was going to buy a bagel but you never know, lots of bike riders like to stop for that
kind of thing. So, at what point do private malls, that allow, and encourage, the public to attend
them, get to pick and choose their choice of vehicle? You just know they would allow a Segway on
the sidewalk as that would be oh so trendy. It's not a big deal as I seldom ride there but it did
sort of tick me off.

The mall sounds like an awful slice of suburban hell, is there no better place to shop? Let them
peddle their whitebread and mayo to someone else.

The mall is not going to give a fart about you because you can't buy enough bagels to matter.

--Paul

"Tim McTeague" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Any legal eagles out there. Nearby we have a fairly new shopping area

that

Quoted message said:

is one of those attempts to recreate the old fashioned shop filled streets of days gone by, or at
least remembered from old movies. Not a covered mall, but an open area with a fancy fountain,
sculptures, benchs and

trendy

Quoted message said:

stores. OK, it's "The Avenue at White Marsh" in Baltimore. Complete with piped in Muzak at every
corner, no need for authentic buskers here, they

try

Quoted message said:

to really set a mood, kind of a white-bread bland, cookie cutter mood, but

a

Quoted message said:

mood none the less. Last year I was told that my dog was not allowed and

I

Quoted message said:

pointed out that they had a prominent life sized sculpture of a child playing with a dog but they
failed to see the irony. Anyway, sometimes I take my early AM Sunday ride through this area as it
is pretty well

deserted

Quoted message said:

and I can check it out without the crowds. The only shops being open are the coffee and bagel
sort. This morning I was a bit later than usual and

a

Quoted message said:

few more stores were opening up and the rent-a-cop told me bicycles were

not

Quoted message said:

allowed here. I informed him that state law allows bikes on all public roads save highways and
interstates. He informed me it was private

property

Quoted message said:

and I told him that bicyclists spend money too and I would take mine elsewhere. Not that I was
going to buy a bagel but you never know, lots

of

Quoted message said:

bike riders like to stop for that kind of thing. So, at what point do private malls, that allow,
and encourage, the public to attend them, get

to

Quoted message said:

pick and choose their choice of vehicle? You just know they would allow a Segway on the sidewalk
as that would be oh so trendy. It's not a big deal as I seldom ride there but it did sort of
tick me off.

Tim McTeague

Rent-a-cops are morons. They usually don't know what the hell the management company thinks ... it's
not they move in the same circles, and I doubt most of the can read past the 3rd grade level even if
someone did hand them a copy of the official policy.

There was just an incident around here where a mother and her daughter had locked up their bikes
outside a mall, and the rent-a-cops ... in a typical display of penis envy ... cut their locks
and stole their bikes. However, they wrote the manager of the mall, and not only received a
statement saying bicycles were welcome and an apology, but gift certificates in excess of the
value of the locks.

Write the management, they may want to know what their hired gorillas are doing and they may not
agree with it. Write the local newspaper as well.

It's your money, that mall wouldn't be the first business that went under 'cause it treated it's
customers like [censored].

C.Q.C.

Tim McTeague said:

This morning I was a bit later than usual and a few more stores were opening up and the rent-a-cop
told me bicycles were not allowed here.

What an [censored].

--

I think. Therefore, I am not a conservative!
----- members.iglou.combanditOpen ↗ ------

Check out my blog blogga blog at bandit73.pitas.combandit73.pitas.comOpen ↗

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

allowed here. I informed him that state law allows bikes on all public

Were you on a street (with cars) or on a sidewalk (with pedestrians)? Banning bicycles from
sidewalks makes sense.

I was riding in the street. It never occured to me that I should write that as I never ride on
sidewalks but I suppose some do. As for other posts, I don't expect to change the policy of the mall
mgt. I just want to know if they actually had any legal legs to stand on. If not, I may go back just
to be a [censored].

Tim McTeague

Hi said:

Quoted message said:

This morning I was a bit later than usual and a few more stores were opening up and the rent-a-
cop told me bicycles were not allowed here.

What an [censored].

Some rent-a-cops are actually armed with real guns and big sticks.

Malls are a blight upon the land and the best of them should be plowed under and the land sowed
with salt.

--
Cheers, Bev
---------------------------------
aibohphobia - fear of palindromes

"The Real Bev" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi said:

Quoted message said:

This morning I was a bit later than usual and a few more stores were opening up and the rent-a-
cop told me bicycles

were not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

allowed here.

What an [censored].

Around these parts, rent-a-goons don't have ANY special powers, apart from the same rights any
citizen has when it comes to arrest. When push comes to shove they don't have a leg to stand on,
unless you actually are breaking the law. I love informing them that unlawful detainment is a
serious crime, and if they think I'm breaking the law they'd better call in a uniformed policeman
... if not, get the hell away from me.

Quoted message said:

Some rent-a-cops are actually armed with real guns ...

So am I (c:

Quoted message said:

... and big sticks.

Doubtful.

Quoted message said:

Malls are a blight upon the land and the best of them should be plowed under and the land sowed
with salt.

Agreed! But, why only the best of them?

C.Q.C.

Tim McTeague said:

covered mall, but an open area with a fancy fountain, sculptures, benchs and trendy stores.

1) It's all probably owned by the corporation that owns the storefronts. It's uses are really what
they say they are. It's not a public street.

2) What "vehicles" are allowed?  Isn't it a _pedestrian_ mall?  That means walking, not riding.

Quoted message said:

Last year I was told that my dog was not allowed and I pointed out that they had a prominent life
sized sculpture of a child playing with a dog but they failed to see the irony.

OK, they are into rules. Only bronze dogs allowed. Live with it.

Quoted message said:

I informed him that state law allows bikes on all public roads save highways and interstates. He
informed me it was private property

Hence not a public road. It he's right, then you really don't have any beef. Find out who owns it.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | I don't believe you, you've got the whole damn thing all wrong. _`\(,_ | He's not the kind
you have to wind-up on Sundays. --Ian (_)/ (_) | Anderson

Quoted message said:

"Tim McTeague" [email hidden]

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

So, at what point do private malls, that allow, and encourage, the public to attend them, get to
pick and choose their choice of vehicle?

From your description I'd guess that the mall you're talking about is private property. The mall
owners have exactly the same rights over their property as you do over your property. You can check
with the mall owners to see if their policy allows bikes but questions like that almost always get
the easiest answer- no. As I see it you have two options: Option #1- Find a different Sunday morning
ride. Option #2- Ride somewhere you don't really care for anyway (that mall) and risk arrest for
criminal trespass to real property. It sounds like a no-brainer to me.

Regards, Bob Hunt

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:12:52 -0800, The Real Bev <[email hidden]> from

Quoted message said:

Malls are a blight upon the land and the best of them should be plowed under and the land sowed
with salt.

No ... don't salt the earth. It can grow hemp.

--
real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com
What would your closest friend do?

=v= Was there a road or street already existing there before the mall was built? Various private
entities attempt to seize public rights of way and claim it as their own, but your right to use it
goes all the way back to English Common Law. You'll probably need to assert this right, though.

=v= If it's an entirely new "street" on private land, then technically they can prohibit you. But I
wouldn't take a rent-a-cop's word on what the policy is. <_Jym_>

(I Am Not A Lawyer. Just repeating what I've read and heard.)

On 29 Dec 2003 04:24:35 GMT, [email hidden] (Hunrobe) from AOL

url='http://www.aol.com/'http://www.aol.com/url said:

As I see it you have two options: Option #1- Find a different Sunday morning ride. Option #2- Ride
somewhere you don't really care for anyway (that mall) and risk arrest for criminal trespass to
real property. It sounds like a no-brainer to me.

Yeah, option 2, hands down. Don't let the [censored] win.

--
real e-mail addy: kevansmith23 at yahoo dot com
Allow an easement (an easement is the abandonment of a stricture).

Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:28:32 -0500, <[email hidden]>,

Tim McTeague said:

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

allowed here. I informed him that state law allows bikes on all public

Were you on a street (with cars) or on a sidewalk (with pedestrians)? Banning bicycles from
sidewalks makes sense.

I was riding in the street. It never occured to me that I should write that as I never ride on
sidewalks but I suppose some do. As for other posts, I don't expect to change the policy of the
mall mgt. I just want to know if they actually had any legal legs to stand on. If not, I may go
back just to be a [censored].

Tim McTeague

Is the street contiguous with other city streets and not marked "private property" or separated by
bollards? It's open to all vehicular traffic or is it restricted to some vehicles?

With it having a private security contractor, it sounds to me like it is private property. If the
management does in fact have a "no bicycles" and "no dogs" policy they should at least put up signs
to warn people what kind of stupid scum they are and to shop elsewhere.

If it is public space, check your city's by-laws regarding the status of public malls. They might be
considered sidewalks and prohibit cycling. Tell them to put up signs.
--
zk

28 Dec 2003 21:39:12 -0800, <[email hidden]>,

Jym Dyer said:

=v= If it's an entirely new "street" on private land, then technically they can prohibit you. But I
wouldn't take a rent-a-cop's word on what the policy is. <_Jym_>

A petition properly presented to the merchants might get enough signatures to sway official policy.
--
zk

"Hunrobe" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

From your description I'd guess that the mall you're talking about is

private

Quoted message said:

property. The mall owners have exactly the same rights over their property

as

Quoted message said:

you do over your property.

<snip>

Not sure about that one ... exactly the same rights? Perhaps that have the same rights available to
them, but they are zoned commercial for one thing, and they open up certain areas to the public for
another. As a private homeowner, I may have the right to shoot someone who is trespassing but I
seriously doubt the same would apply to the owners of this mall. You give up a lot of rights, and
assume more responsibilities when you welcome the public in. Anyone who has been to a local zoning
board meeting knows that commercially zoned land and residential land have vastly different rules
that apply. It's no biggie for me to have a few gallons of gasoline or oil stored in my garage for
my lawn mower (or even a 55 gallon drum), but it can be a big deal if it's a commercial property.

Quoted message said:

Option #2- Ride somewhere you don't really care for anyway (that mall) and

risk

Quoted message said:

arrest for criminal trespass to real property. It sounds like a no-brainer

to

Quoted message said:

me.

Be nice, contact the mall management and find out if this is indeed their policy, and if so let them
know you will not be spending money there. If bicyclists are unwelcome, then make sure you write a
polite letter to the local newspaper informing any other bicyclists they are also unwelcome and not
to bother shopping there either.

C.Q.C.

Tim McTeague said:

I just want to know if they actually had any legal legs to stand on. If not, I may go back just to
be a [censored].

Yeah, but don't you realize that biking is Against the American Way? Futzing kahmuhnist!

EFR :°

"Tim McTeague"

Quoted message said:

This morning I was a bit later than usual and a few more stores were opening up and the rent-a-cop
told me bicycles were not allowed here. I informed him that state law allows bikes on all public
roads save highways and interstates. He informed me it was private property and I told him that
bicyclists spend money too and I would take mine elsewhere. Not that I was going to buy a bagel
but you never know, lots of bike riders like to stop for that kind of thing. So, at what point do
private malls, that allow, and encourage, the public to attend them, get to pick and choose their
choice of vehicle? You just know they would allow a Segway on the sidewalk as that would be oh so
trendy. It's not a big deal as I seldom ride there but it did sort of tick me off.

Assuming you were using the vehicular-use facilities and not pedestrian-only areas, there are
several things you can do.

Odds are the policy is a misguided effort to discourage horseplay on bicycles by kids. Such is
often a nuisance, safety concern, or source of damage to property. If the management has a policy
against all bicycle use, they should amend it to allow bicycle travel to and from destinations, but
not horseplay. Have them amend the policy from "no bicycles" to "no horseplay or stunt
cycling/skating allowed."

That would serve their motives adequately, unless their concern is inadequate bicycle parking, which
is a different situation entirely, or worse, if they really just want to block access to the
demographic that doesn't have cars, in which case you have a civil liberties case on your hands.

1. Contact the managers at as many stores as you can where you actually shop, and tell them that the
mall management is discourageing you from shopping there. Explain the situation and ask them to
contact the mall managment to amend the policy to allow bicycle transportation.

2. If there are any shops that have an environmental or recreational bent, such as outdoor equipment
or nature-lover shops, tell the managers of those shops about the anti-bicycle car-access-only
policy and ask them if they can do anything.

3. Find out who on your city council represents your district, and ask them what you can do or how
the city may be able to help.

4. Find out who in your city government handles transportation planning. Explain to them the
situation and ask what can be done.

Repeat (4) with someone at the state level who handles cycling issues.

Eventually you will find somebody in power with the leverage to make them change the policy to allow
you to access the stores with at least as much convenience as motorists have.

-Steve Goodridge humantransport.orghumantransport.orgOpen ↗

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

OK, they are into rules. Only bronze dogs allowed. Live with it.

I do go on living! The dog part was just an interesting note. I thought it funny that they celebrate
the joys of dogs in their "art" but not in life. To answer other responses, of course the mall roads
are accessable from public roads, it would be a bit daft to be otherwise. I have no doubt that it is
a privately owned mall but, once the public is encouraged to come, at what point can they stop some
otherwise legal traffic? Sort of a modern version of "eminent domain" may apply. And again, as I
first posted, it is not a big deal. I seldom ride there and my life would be little affected if I
never returned. I just would like to know how the law sees this situation. Also, they have no signs
about dogs, bikes or even skateboards. Guess they want to appear family friendly until you break one
of the unwritten rules.

Tim McTeague