Bikes at the supermarket

John Hearns said:

My point really being that everything is made easy for the car, its a no
brainer to grab the car keys and make a journey.

Quoted message said:

Bikes get nicked too often, and are vulnerable to bits being nicked off
them.

Quoted message said:

Discuss. (and please don't make it personal)

Horses for courses, perhaps?

Car - Put on normal clothes, go to post office to buy tax disc, go to
petrol station to buy fuel, go to work to earn money to pay for car,
drive to gym, change in to gym kit, sit on stationery bicycle, have
shower, put on normal clothes, drive home.

Bike - Put on normal clothes (or cycling clothes if you prefer), don't
go to post office to buy tax disc, don't go to petrol station to buy
fuel, don't go to gym, don't change into gym clothes, continue cycling,
go home.

Cars have their uses. So do bikes.

Yesterday, I drove. It took me 90 minutes to do a journey which would
have taken me 45 minutes to cycle. I cursed when I arrived home, having
wasted an hour and a half over the round trip.

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My point really being that everything is made easy for the car, its a no
brainer to grab the car keys and make a journey.
Bikes get nicked too often, and are vulnerable to bits being nicked off
them.

Discuss. (and please don't make it personal)

Have to make it personal - it's only my experience I can comment upon.
Luckily where I live is not a hot-spot for cycle theft. Indeed, I've noticed
on several occasions, mine is the only bike locked, or at least locked with
anything even vaguely more secure than a flimsy cable lock. One of the perks
of being out in the sticks :-)

The supermakets I have a choice of are Tesco, Lidl or Morrison in nearest
town then a Waitrose in next nearest.

Lidl, whilst having excellent cycle stuff in the occasion 'specials' have
naff-all in the way of bike parking. Nothing at all.
Tesco have a couple of p!$$-poor toaster-type racks poorly bolted to the
ground
Morrisons have loads of proper Sheffield stands concreted into the ground,
under partial cover at least, so bike sparked there can remain pretty much
dry in all but the worst weather.
Waitrose, IIRC have a few wheelbender type things attached to a wall.

Yes, it's much easier by car in terms of facilities provided for bike
parking. But my local Morrison's is actually okay.

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Re. the "Adulterated fuel" thread, there is a thread I've wanted to kick
off for some time.
I've probably already said this, so do forgive me.

Anyway, let's consider a journey to the supermarket.

Ocado? It'd probably be as cheap and better environmentally[1].

For me it's a 5 minute walk to the supermarket so can go as often as I like.
Personally this means that I cannot carry too much, which means that I have
to shop sensibly. I reckon I could probably carry more with a couple of
panniers, but I have to cross a footbridge. But yes, it'd be more hassle.
However if I was 15 minutes cycle away, I'd do that.[2]

[1] I really don't know this, but guess if a van delivers to 15 homes, then
that's 15 trips to and from the supermarket saved.
[2] Don't have a car anyway.

On Thu, 01 Mar 2007 17:09:01 +0000 someone who may be John Hearns
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Cycle - put tracksuit bottoms, gloves and cleated shoes on.
Take bike out, remembering keys. Get to supermarket where there are a
dozen Sheffield stands at the front doors. Use heavy lock, and try to
make sure quick release front wheel is locked too. Strip off every
accessory, such as lights, pump, computer.
Fair chance of bike being nicked on return. Do shopping, reverse process.

Bike. Connect Bike Hod and ride in "normal" clothes to supermarket.
Leave bike at front doors and take Bike Hod inside. Scan items into
Bike Hod. Pay. Return home. Wheel Bike Hod into kitchen and unload.

Car. Get into car, remembering to put the bags/boxes in. Leave car
not at the front doors and walk to supermarket. Get trolley. Scan
items into trolley. Pay. Take items out of trolley and put in
bags/boxes which go back in car. Return home. Carry bags/boxes from
car to kitchen, perhaps more than one trip. Return bags/boxes so as
not to forget them next time.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen said:

Bike. Connect Bike Hod and ride in "normal" clothes to supermarket.
Leave bike at front doors and take Bike Hod inside. Scan items into
Bike Hod. Pay. Return home. Wheel Bike Hod into kitchen and unload.

Or the version I'm hoping to be able to do soon:

As above but fold brompton and place in trolley.

"elyob" <[email hidden]> wrote:
| For me it's a 5 minute walk to the supermarket so can go as often as I like.
| Personally this means that I cannot carry too much, which means that I have
| to shop sensibly. I reckon I could probably carry more with a couple of
| panniers, but I have to cross a footbridge. But yes, it'd be more hassle.
| However if I was 15 minutes cycle away, I'd do that.[2]

It's surprising how much you can get into four panniers. It is true that
my panniers claim to be almost 150 litres in total, and that I have to
think a bit about what's light enough for the front panniers and what's
so heavy that it has to be in the back, but how often do you need to carry
more shopping than that? The only problem I have is bulk-buying of toilet
rolls, because a packet that's big enough that it has to be bungied onto
the top of the rear panniers will obscure the rear light.

___
[2] What's a car?

John Hearns said:

Re. the "Adulterated fuel" thread, there is a thread I've wanted to
kick off for some time.
I've probably already said this, so do forgive me.

Anyway, let's consider a journey to the supermarket.
Car - wear normal clothes and put on any shoes.

Translation - have car which is suited to urban shopping.

Alternative car might be a stripped out Caterham light weight special, which
has no locks, no roof, aeroscreens, requires goggles, hat/helmet, narrow
shoes (no space for clod-hopping boots), rain gear, etc. for driving.

Quoted message said:

Cycle - put tracksuit bottoms, gloves and cleated shoes on.
........... Strip off every
accessory, such as lights, pump, computer.

Cycle - vehicle designed for light weight sports use.

Solution. Get a cycle suited for the job, with bits bolted on, or not
fitted, suitable lock with carrying bracket, etc.

Short term solution, double sided pedals with cleats onside and flat the
other.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Re. the "Adulterated fuel" thread, there is a thread I've wanted to kick
off for some time.
I've probably already said this, so do forgive me.

Anyway, let's consider a journey to the supermarket.

Yep I call in on my way home from work. No special journey needed.

Quoted message said:

Car - wear normal clothes and put on any shoes.

No need to get dressed or wear speacial shoes on my way home...

Quoted message said:

Go down to underground car park (OK - I am a bit lucky here!).

Go to large car park. insert the key into the door of my non central locking
Nissan Micra

Quoted message said:

Press central locking, hop in car and off through electrically raised
shutter gates.

Insert the key into the door of my non-central locking Nissan Micra climb in
start engine and drive off through gates which do not delay me because they
are already open.

Quoted message said:

Get to supermarket - literally acres of ground laid out with parking
places.

Ditto

Quoted message said:

Park car,

Ditto

Quoted message said:

Central lock. I am confident car will be there when I get back, car
manufacturers having paid a lot of attention to good locks and
immobilizers.

I count my blessings that more recent models of cars have good locks and
immobilizers because the former were easily overcome by car thieves and the
latter were normally expensive accessories. The advent of better thief
proofing makes it very likely that my losses to car thieves is likely to
reamain at three cars and a motorcycle.

Quoted message said:

I take trolley from trolley stand a few yards from the car. Shop, and
wheel trolley back to beside car.

I normally return my trolley to a trolley refuge after loading my car.

Quoted message said:

Off home.

Ditto.

I seem to accomplish the same task with a lot less fuss, deliberation and
inconvenience......

Quoted message said:

Visit Canary Wharf at the weekend and the car gets parked in an
underground car park again, and there is a lift directly up to Waitrose.
I literally don't have to get wet if it is raining.

It's a bit far from Leeds to drive to to benefit from a covered walkway to a
supermarket ...

Quoted message said:

On the other hand for a quick visit to Leeds city centre....

Quoted message said:

Cycle - put tracksuit bottoms, gloves and cleated shoes on.

Already have shorts on and it's just a matter of putting on the SPD trainers
whichj i'd probably put on if I was driving into Leeds..

Quoted message said:

Take bike out, remembering keys.

My bike keys are much easier to find as I am the sole user whereas my car
keys caould be anywhere in the house as they are used by two other people.
Slot pannier bag onto rack.

Quoted message said:

Get to supermarket where there are a dozen Sheffield stands at the front
doors.

Cycle to city centre taking five minutes longer than a drive there and chain
bike to a Sheffield thats much closer to any of the shops that I use than
any of the car parking spaces.

Quoted message said:

Use heavy lock, and try to make sure quick release front wheel is locked
too.

Ditto

Quoted message said:

Strip off every accessory, such as lights, pump, computer.

I don't bother going in if I need lights. My pump is pre-packed in the
pannier along with my waterproofs. Motorists spend time concealing SatNavs,
handbags and other valuable. Conscientious motorists will spend time
locking them in the boot.

Quoted message said:

Fair chance of bike being nicked on return.

I've had two cars and a motor bike stolen. I've yet to have a bike stolen.

Do shopping, reverse process.

Ditto

Quoted message said:

OK - I am being a bit exaggerating here. I could take a town-style bike
(which I have) and wouldn't need the special shoes. I am also lucky enough
to live in Docklands and could cycle round the docks straight to the
supermarket door without going on a road.

My point really being that everything is made easy for the car, its a no
brainer to grab the car keys and make a journey.
Bikes get nicked too often, and are vulnerable to bits being nicked off
them.

Discuss. (and please don't make it personal)

I don't feel particularly disadvantaged as a motorist or as a cyclist.
Accomplishing most tasks is simply a matter of selecting the most suitable
tool(s) for the job. Shopping is no different ;-)

in message <[email hidden]>, John

Hearns (') said:

Re. the "Adulterated fuel" thread, there is a thread I've wanted to kick
off for some time.
I've probably already said this, so do forgive me.

Anyway, let's consider a journey to the supermarket.
Car - wear normal clothes and put on any shoes.
Go down to underground car park (OK - I am a bit lucky here!).
Press central locking, hop in car and off through electrically raised
shutter gates.
Get to supermarket - literally acres of ground laid out with parking
places. Park car, central lock. I am confident car will be there when I
get back, car manufacturers having paid a lot of attention to good locks
and immobilizers.
I take trolley from trolley stand a few yards from the car. Shop, and
wheel trolley back to beside car. Off home.
Visit Canary Wharf at the weekend and the car gets parked in an
underground car park again, and there is a lift directly up to Waitrose.
I literally don't have to get wet if it is raining.

Cycle (ideal):

Hook bike-hod onto utility bike, ride bike to supermarket. Lock bike to one
of the admittedly few Sheffield stands, all of which are empty. Unhook
bike-hod, wheel it into the supermarket, shop using a 'scan it yourself'
thingy. Pay. Hook bike-hod back onto utility bike, ride home.

Assumes:

* Either clips-n-straps on the utility bike, or else you wear cleated shoes
routinely (I have some which are comfortable for general-purpose wear).

* No easily removable accessories on utility bike. No quick release on the
front wheel, or else a security-keyed one.

While I'll agree that if cycling any real distance cycling shorts make
things more pleasant, they aren't required for short distances. Clips and
straps aren't ideal, but can be used with ordinary shoes (or one could
even use platforms). You'd probably put a jacket onto go to the
supermarket anyway, so having to put one on to ride there is no different.
You need either some sort of a chain-guard on the utility bike, or else
trouser clips.

Personally, as I don't live in an urban area, security isn't a big problem.
I regularly leave my utility bike unlocked around the place, no problems
so far (and I certainly wouldn't risk it with my good bike). My bike-hod
has long since died, and although I do plan to get myself a new trailer it
will be a one-wheeler, which you can't easily take into the supermarket
with you. Nevertheless, the main reason I plan to get it is for doing the
supermarket shop.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn.
;; Jim Morrison

Nigel Cliffe said:

Solution. Get a cycle suited for the job, with bits bolted on, or not
fitted, suitable lock with carrying bracket, etc.

I'm with you there. Why not more Dutch-style utility bikes in the UK?
I would bet that most people could not buy these (yes - specialised
shops yadda yadda). Most people think of Halfords for buying bikes.

Quoted message said:

Short term solution, double sided pedals with cleats onside and flat the
other.

Indeed. I bought a cheap pair of these, useless for cleats.
Proper Shimano ones next time.

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Re. the "Adulterated fuel" thread, there is a thread I've wanted to kick
off for some time.
I've probably already said this, so do forgive me.

Anyway, let's consider a journey to the supermarket.

Before our Tesco store was done up, you were able to turn into the access
road, turn right onto a cycle lane and ride up to the cycle racks which were
near the door.
Now you can:
Turn right at a new mini roundabout on the main road, follow the access road
all the way around the perimiter of the (huge) car park then find a way to
the bike stands while dodging eveyone who's pulling in and reversing out of
parking spaces
or
Ride along the pavement to get to the new shared cycle lane they have built,
dodge the trolleys with locked wheels which people have tried to nick but
abandoned on the cycle/footpath, cross the delivery road making sure you
dodge all the parked and reversing articulated lorries, ride along another
short but narrow bit of pavement after the new cycle lane has ended in the
middle of nowhere then ride all the way along the pavement to get to the
bike stands or go the wrong way around the car park one way system to get
there on the road!

It's one thing trying to improve cycling facilities but when it makes it
much worse than it used to be whoever designed such a thing should be
sacked!

I think they should also be more willing to give their green clubcard points
to people who use rucksacks and don't use carrier bags in the first place.
Sometimes they will do it if you mention it to them but not automatically.

--
peter

Cheap train tickets database
http://www.petereverett.co.uk/tickets/

Email sent to this address is generally deleted upon arrival
Visit website if you want to contact me

In message <[email hidden]>, John
Hearns <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Cycle - put tracksuit bottoms, gloves and cleated shoes on.
Take bike out, remembering keys. Get to supermarket where there are a
dozen Sheffield stands at the front doors. Use heavy lock, and try to
make sure quick release front wheel is locked too. Strip off every
accessory, such as lights, pump, computer.
Fair chance of bike being nicked on return. Do shopping, reverse process.

Jump on Brompton in normal clothes, get to supermarket front door, fold
Brompton and put it in trolley, shop and pay, unfold Brompton and fill
the Brompton shopping basket (fits to front of same), cycle home.

Probably the easiest way I know to shop.
--
Bob Downie
Devotee of the wheel
please remove #n0spam# to reply directly

John Hearns said:

Visit Canary Wharf at the weekend and the car gets parked in an
underground car park again, and there is a lift directly up to Waitrose.

ISTR the worst place for traffic fumes is an underground car park.

Quoted message said:

I literally don't have to get wet if it is raining.

The best commute to work I have last year was in torrential rain. I
loved it.

Quoted message said:

Cycle - put tracksuit bottoms, gloves and cleated shoes on.
Take bike out, remembering keys.

Use keys to get to garage where bike is stored

Quoted message said:

Get to supermarket where there are a
dozen Sheffield stands at the front doors.

Less distance to walk to the store, you know exactly where you have left
your bike.

Quoted message said:

Use heavy lock, and try to
make sure quick release front wheel is locked too. Strip off every
accessory, such as lights, pump, computer.

Don't take nickable stuff with you to the store, leave it at home.

Quoted message said:

Fair chance of bike being nicked on return.

Far less cost hand hassle of having a car nicked.

Quoted message said:

Discuss. (and please don't make it personal)

Sorry my nearest shop is a tesco's express, two minutes walk from my
front door, second nearest (ex-spar) about four minutes. Nearest
supermarket sainsbury's 8 min, second nearest 15 min.

You lose out on that lovely ride you the shop, and the exercise going
home. If you are really worried about theft, get a cheapo 15ukp second
hand bike.

If you live with 2 miles-ish of the store forget the pump. 3 miles
forget the rest of the tools.

Martin.

On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 22:16:42 +0000 someone who may be Bob Downie
<BobMail@downie-geo#n0spam#.co.uk> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Jump on Brompton in normal clothes, get to supermarket front door, fold
Brompton and put it in trolley, shop and pay, unfold Brompton and fill
the Brompton shopping basket (fits to front of same), cycle home.

It's better to put things in the bag at the paying stage. It makes
unfolding, clicking the bag on and setting off quicker.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

I've got a bike with SPD and a big with Look. Silly fool that I am
took the Look one to my local Tesco on Monday. Those cleats don't half
make a noise on hard supermarket floors! My sport cyclist waddle got a
few odd looks too!

On the convinience front, its only when you spend time at cycle
friendly places like centreparks that you realise how car-dominated
the rest of the world is!

Car - wear normal clothes and put on any shoes.
Walk to wherever I managed to park
Start car and inch along the street frequently pulling in to gaps
between parked cars to let oncoming vehicles pass
Sit in traffic queue for traffic lights
Repeat
Queue to get into supermarket car park
Drive around to find a parking space, usually find one at far end of
car park
Walk to supermarket, shop, load car
Reverse journey

Bike - wear normal clothes and put on any shoes.
Unlock bike and remove from shed
Cycle to supermarket, sailing past queuing cars and taking advantage
of several shortcuts unavailable to motors
Lock bike next to supermarket door
Shop, loading directly into panniers and rucksack at checkout
Cycle home, sailing past traffic queuing to get out of car park

OK, I don't actually do much of the shopping for our household and
when I do it's a top-up on Saturday afternoon.

John Hearns said:

Cycle - put tracksuit bottoms, gloves and cleated shoes on.

Why do you need trackie bottoms? Gloves if it's cold, but I don't wear
them more often than not. Cleated shoes is bike-dependent. If it's the
8 Freight or the fancy tourer, yes, if it's the Brompton (which it will
be for a small load), no.

Quoted message said:

Take bike out, remembering keys.

Again, depends on the bike how awkward this bit is. If it's the
Brompton I pick it up on my way to the front door and take 15 seconds
unfolding it. I don't need the keys, though I would for the car.

Quoted message said:

Get to supermarket where there are a
dozen Sheffield stands at the front doors. Use heavy lock, and try to
make sure quick release front wheel is locked too. Strip off every
accessory, such as lights, pump, computer.

If it's the Brom I can fold it (15 secs) and leave it with Customer
Services who are happy to keep an eye on it for me. Otherwise I'll lock
the bike right by the front door for a minimum of transport of goodies.
The lights are bolted on to all of them (I use dynamos), I don't use a
computer on anything, and if I did on tour I wouldn't bother on the Brom
or the freighter. Since none of my regular trio will take a frame pump,
my pump lives in the toolbag.

Quoted message said:

Fair chance of bike being nicked on return. Do shopping, reverse process.

Bugger all chance of bike being nicked: the Brom will be with customer
services, the 'bent or freighter will be locked to a post next to the
front of house security man who probably recognises me, and the bikes
are not especially thievable. The freighter certainly isn't built for a
quick getaway, neither are made for easy and confidential sale onwards
and many potential thieves wouldn't even be sure they could ride the 'bent.

When I come out, if it's (as it most ofen is) the freighter, I lower my
crate straight from trolley into the back of the bike and can leave the
trolley about a foot away. By the time a typical motorist is back at
their car and loaded I'm on my way.

Quoted message said:

My point really being that everything is made easy for the car, its a no
brainer to grab the car keys and make a journey.
Bikes get nicked too often, and are vulnerable to bits being nicked off
them.

Quoted message said:

Discuss. (and please don't make it personal)

Get yourself the right bike for the job. A folder can be /very/ secure,
because you can take it in with you. If you don't want stuff nicked off
the bike, don't have it on there in the first place (do you really need
to know your speed and cadence on a trip to the shops?) or make it more
permanent (like dynamo lighting). A mini-pump can live in a pannier or
other quick-release bag, or a lockable hard-shell top box.

I find it more of a no-brainer to take the Brom than the car. I need my
glasses for driving (though not riding), I need to think about the fuel
level, the amount of traffic I'm likely to meet (i.e., near Tannadice on
a Saturday lunchtime is a Bad Idea, Bridge roundabout between 16:30 and
17:30 is a Bad Idea), and might I want a beer when I'm wherever I'm
going. I don't need a lock, the lights are always there, it's rather
less hassle unfolding it than going round to the driver's door, getting
belted up, checking the mirrors, doing any necessary screen clearances
and then driving off.
On one occasion a house-mate and I walked out of our front door at the
same time, both headed in the same direction. She drove, I took the
Brompton. She didn't catch up until we were at her destination,
somewhere between 500-750 m away (and uphill for the whole thing).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My point really being that everything is made easy for the car, its a no
brainer to grab the car keys and make a journey.
Bikes get nicked too often, and are vulnerable to bits being nicked off
them.

I don't use my bike for shopping anymore as I ride around on road bikes all
the time now. If I am popping to the shops for a few items I walk with a
rucksack and that is a five mile walk. I take the car if I'm getting a full
trolley, but I use the opportunity to go to the bottle bank. I have stopped
using my car for work altogether now, the last time was in mid Dec 06.

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

Am Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:05:59 +0000 schrieb John Hearns:

Quoted message said:

Nigel Cliffe said:

Solution. Get a cycle suited for the job, with bits bolted on, or not
fitted, suitable lock with carrying bracket, etc.

I'm with you there. Why not more Dutch-style utility bikes in the UK?
I would bet that most people could not buy these (yes - specialised
shops yadda yadda). Most people think of Halfords for buying bikes.

I grew up in Germany near the Dutch border - and Dutch bikes were literally
the only bikes around. Got my first Dutch bike at the age of 10 and used it
for about 10 years. Great - really great - in flat terrain. They just roll
- and even with heavy shopping load stay rock stable. Plus nearly no
maintenance needed due to hub gear and enclosed chain. But as soon as I
moved into a more hilly terrain - they are horrible to use. Replaced it
with a high quality trekking bike, wich is still running after 12 years.

What puzzles me is that most bikes sold and running in the UK have no
lights attached. I mean - battery run lights are fine for light weight road
bikes, when you occasionally end up in the dark. Yet I don't regret having
invested in a hub dynamo. The sensor switches it on/off automatically.
Nowadays even the bikes regularly sold at discounter stores like Aldi in
Germany are equipped with simple hub dynamos.
I went to Halfords the other day to help a friend deciding, which commuter
bike to buy. No bike in that shop was fitted with lights - which makes most
of these bikes pretty useless in my opinion. In the end she bought a
Carrera Subway 1 for £159, which after some post-buy adjustments of the
gears and breaks at home seems like a good buy, as it replace her £50
full-suspension "mountain"-bike. Luckily she had battery front/back lights
from her old bike. But how good value for money could a bike like the
Subway 1 be, if it had a simple hub dynamo and lights attached? I'm sure
big companies like Halfords could get a good deal on those cheap hub
dynamos like Shimano DH-3N20, Suntour DH-CT600 or Nova Tec.

Andreas