Bike Sizing

ColeJustesen said:

Are those the components people refer to as "Campy"? The salesman at my LBS said he really liked Campy parts and that they are pretty spendy. How much would those shifters cost to replace? Thanks.....I am just to trying to weigh all my options.

Yes, "Campy" == Campagnolo.

And, yes, Campy components can be very pricey ... particularly, if you are committed to having an all-Campy equipped bike.

The actual cost of a pair of 10-speed, non-QS Campagnolo shifters is between $100-to-$400+ (used-to-new).

The NET COST could be close to zero after you re-sell the shifters which come on the bike.
[INDENT]To repeat myself, the 10-speed Campagnolo shifters can be mated with 8-/9-speed Shimano components with minimal effort.

I still haven't taken the time to try it, but in addition to being compatible with 10-speed SRAM components, the 10-speed Campagnolo shifters should work with 10-speed Shimano components if you use the hubbub.com alternate rear derailleur cable anchoring (the same anchoring is used with an 8-/9-speed rear derailleur and a 9-speed Shimano cassette) on a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur.

BTW. Despite what the misinformation which is often repeated with regard to Shimano rear derailleurs, the fact is that the geometry of the 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur is different from the geometry of the 8-/9-speed Shimano rear derailleur.
[/INDENT]Campagnolo's non-QS left shifters are universal and can be used with ANY front derailleur ...

On the other hand, the Campagnolo Xenon-based QS left shifters & forthcoming Campagnolo PowerTorque (?) left shifters + the SRAM left shifter + the typical Shimano left shifter are front derailleur specific.

ColeJustesen said:

Is there a way to measure how long the stem needs to be, or is it basically a comfort thing?

Cole

First, set the saddle back so that your center of gravity is roughly over your feet with your back at roughly a 45-degree angle. You should be able to support your torso using just your back muscles, without the sensation of about to fall on your face.

Set the saddle height to your proper stretch. Now place your hands over the brake hoods, with elbows slightly bent, where you'll be doing most of your riding. If the stem is the right length, the angle from your upper arm to your back should be around 90-95 degrees.

oldbobcat said:

First, set the saddle back so that your center of gravity is roughly over your feet with your back at roughly a 45-degree angle. You should be able to support your torso using just your back muscles, without the sensation of about to fall on your face.

Set the saddle height to your proper stretch. Now place your hands over the brake hoods, with elbows slightly bent, where you'll be doing most of your riding. If the stem is the right length, the angle from your upper arm to your back should be around 90-95 degrees.

Thanks for the information....the salesman at one of my LBS said he was looking for a 90 degree angle with my hands on the brake hoods as I rode....this is why he suggested that I get a 58cm over a 56cm, but was also interested in seeing how I would look on a 60cm cycle.

Thanks again!

Cole

That 90-degree (or so) angle just seems to be the optimum compromise between giving you something to pull on, steering, and supporting the upper body. Too close and you're just sitting there. Too far and you end up working too hard to simply balance and control the bike.

I rode a bike that has a seat tube angle of 73 degrees and a head tube angle of 72.5 degrees with a top tube length of 582 mm. What differences would I expect from a bike that has a 75 degree seat tube angle and a 73.5 head tube angle with a 585 mm top tube?

I have been eyeing up the Windsor Fens 60 cm bike on bikesdirect.com as it is close to the same geometry as the Trek 2.1 that I test rode. I also saw a 60 cm Mercier Aero TT on bikes direct that had a longer frame like the Specialized Secteur that I test rode (which was also very comfortable). The difference is that the Mercier has a 75 degree seat tube angle and a 73.5 degree head tube angle with a 585 mm top tube. The Specialized has a 73 degree seat tube angle and a head tube angle of 72.5 degrees with a top tube length of 582 mm.

Thanks for the information so far!

Cole

ColeJustesen said:

I rode a bike that has a seat tube angle of 73 degrees and a head tube angle of 72.5 degrees with a top tube length of 582 mm. What differences would I expect from a bike that has a 75 degree seat tube angle and a 73.5 head tube angle with a 585 mm top tube?
Cole

Depends on how you orient yourself on the bike. On the steeper angled bike, if you position the saddle to maintain the same distance as on the slacker bike, you might feel as though you're tipping forward. If you position the saddle according to your balance, though, you'll be reaching farther for the handlebar. This is assuming that saddle-to-stem drop, stem length, and handlebar reach are about equal, of course.

Steeper angled bikes tend to be a little more jittery in ride and steering, too. All other elements being equal, of course. The factors that go into handling are complicated and usually the only way to discern is to go for a ride.

ColeJustesen said:

I rode a bike that has a seat tube angle of 73 degrees and a head tube angle of 72.5 degrees with a top tube length of 582 mm. What differences would I expect from a bike that has a 75 degree seat tube angle and a 73.5 head tube angle with a 585 mm top tube?
Cole

The bike with the 75 degree seat tube and 58.5 top tube will result in significantly longer reach.
It's unusual for a bike that size to have that steep of a seat tube. Typically within a given line of bike seat tube angles get steeper as the bike size gets smaller.

I can't stress enough the downsides of going too large (long) when selecting a frame. I think that assuming you won't end up with a setup that results in excessive bar drop that it's almost always better to go smaller. In order to avoid excessive bar drop you need to figure out what is the minimum head tube length you need. When you go too large (long) you always end up with reach issues that can only be solved by going with a super short stem.

Smaller frames handle better and are just more fun to ride.

I learned this lesson the hard way $$$ years ago and have since then seen others make the same mistake with the result usually being 1. They get a super short stem and keep a too large bike or 2. They sell their too large bike and get one that is smaller (shorter).

rich88 said:

The bike with the 75 degree seat tube and 58.5 top tube will result in significantly longer reach.
It's unusual for a bike that size to have that steep of a seat tube. Typically within a given line of bike seat tube angles get steeper as the bike size gets smaller.

I can't stress enough the downsides of going too large (long) when selecting a frame. I think that assuming you won't end up with a setup that results in excessive bar drop that it's almost always better to go smaller. In order to avoid excessive bar drop you need to figure out what is the minimum head tube length you need. When you go too large (long) you always end up with reach issues that can only be solved by going with a super short stem.

Smaller frames handle better and are just more fun to ride.

I learned this lesson the hard way $$$ years ago and have since then seen others make the same mistake with the result usually being 1. They get a super short stem and keep a too large bike or 2. They sell their too large bike and get one that is smaller (shorter).

Thanks for the information. The picture of the bike shows a stem and handlebar that are angled up more on the Mercier Aero TT (75 degree S/T bike) in comparison to the others I am looking at as well. Here are the pictures of them:

versus these two:

Based off that information, even with a 75 degree S/T angle it looks to me that I wouldn't have to reach as much as I would if the stem and handlebar were setup like the Windsor or the Motobecane.

That being said, I am really wanting to get the Windsor, just a couple more $$$ and I would be able to order it. It has the Shimano 105 F/R Derailleur and 105 STI shifters and brakes. The Motobecane has the 105 rear derailleur and the Tiagra front derailleur and shifters/brakes. I would like to get all the 105 components, but a shop salesman assured me that the Tiagra components aren't too bad and to not be worried about getting a bike that has them on it. Another benefit of the Windsor are the rims...the Alex DA22 rims look like they could handle a 225 lb. rider since they have 32 spokes in comparison to the 24 on the Motobecane. Overall the Motobecane looks sleeker and better, but the components on the Windsor seem to be a notch above the Motobecane. I believe either the Motobecane or the Windsor would be a good suit for me (that being said from a very novice point of view & experience from riding a couple other brands of bikes).

Thanks again for the information, I hope I am not coming across as too much of an ignorant person. There just seems to be a lot more to road bikes than I first anticipated.

Really, thanks to everyone that has chimed in with some information!

Cole

ColeJustesen said:

Thanks for the information. The picture of the bike shows a stem and handlebar that are angled up more on the Mercier Aero TT (75 degree S/T bike) in comparison to the others I am looking at as well. Here are the pictures of them:

versus these two:

Based off that information, even with a 75 degree S/T angle it looks to me that I wouldn't have to reach as much as I would if the stem and handlebar were setup like the Windsor or the Motobecane.

That being said, I am really wanting to get the Windsor, just a couple more $$$ and I would be able to order it. It has the Shimano 105 F/R Derailleur and 105 STI shifters and brakes. The Motobecane has the 105 rear derailleur and the Tiagra front derailleur and shifters/brakes. I would like to get all the 105 components, but a shop salesman assured me that the Tiagra components aren't too bad and to not be worried about getting a bike that has them on it. Another benefit of the Windsor are the rims...the Alex DA22 rims look like they could handle a 225 lb. rider since they have 32 spokes in comparison to the 24 on the Motobecane. Overall the Motobecane looks sleeker and better, but the components on the Windsor seem to be a notch above the Motobecane. I believe either the Motobecane or the Windsor would be a good suit for me (that being said from a very novice point of view & experience from riding a couple other brands of bikes).

Thanks again for the information, I hope I am not coming across as too much of an ignorant person. There just seems to be a lot more to road bikes than I first anticipated.

Really, thanks to everyone that has chimed in with some information!

Cole

You can get stems of different lengths and different degrees of rise. Typically from 6 to 10 degrees. That Mercier is setup with with a stem that looks like it has been flipped up to provide more rise.

As far as components you always want the best components. If you ever build your own bike you will purchase an entire groupo which is all the components (front\rear deraileur, brakes, brake levers, bottom bracket, crankset, hubs, etc.) A lot of bikes you see for sale mix and match components. Like 105 brakes and Tiagra deraileurs, etc which makes comparing two bikes a bit harder.

If you intend to ride a lot and want maximum fun then choosing the proper size/geometry is critical. It is the most important decision you make. You can go out and spend 6000 dollars on a really high end bike but if doesn't fit you perfectly then you are wasting your money.

There are a ton of different bikes out there. I would test ride a bunch more while writing down their specs (seat tube angle, top tube length and head tube length). 1 centimeter too long/short matters. Just remember a bike shop's primary objective is selling bikes. If they end up selling you a bike that fits you perfectly then that's great but often that is not their primary concern.

I sometimes feel like telling newbies to buy something used and cheap for their first bike so they can take their time in figuring out what they need size/geomety wise. Nothing sucks more than spending a bunch of money on a new bike and then realizing 6 months later that you could have made a better choice size/geometry wise.

I have been eying the used market around where I live...as I am not above buying a used bike....most of my guitar equipment that I have is previously used.

My troubles are finding a bike that is in my frame size, and finding one where the cost is equal the price of what a used bike should go for.

Someone locally was selling an older Scott bike, which was all carbon fiber and had Shimano Dura-Ace components for $400...the downside was that it was a 54cm frame.

I know if I wait long enough something could pop up, but so far it hasn't been good. I have seen bikes with asking prices that aren't far off from buying it brand new in a shop.

The shops I have been in to don't have a wide selection of used bikes and once again the ones they do have aren't my size.

This is the main reason I am looking at buying off bikesdirect.com and the fact that I can get more for my money.

As far as buying a used one of the internet, I am not sure that I would feel comfortable with packaging and shipping practices by the seller. I have had enough horror stories with guitar products.

Thanks again for the assistance.

Cole