Bike fitting

John Blake said:

Looking for second and third opinions on "the correct" fit for a bike.

As I read Sheldon's website, there doesn't appear to be a commitment
to one measure or another in regards to saddle height.

There isn't, and that's because there isn't one single way to determine
saddle height for everyone. At the end of the day it's what works for
you that matters.

Quoted message said:

The "best" fit is when one can place the heel of the foot on the pedal
in the lowest position. The alternative is 109% of inside leg length
for pedal at bottom position to position of saddle. There are other
views.

Recently my LBS has insisted that I should adopt the "heel" method for
positioning the saddle - they saw how high the saddle was and set
about putting me right.

I have tried this for just a short while (three days and 54 miles) and
it feels like a lot of hard work compared to before. It "feels" too
low down with respect to the road and that my legs are in the wrong
position for "efficient" cycling. My thighs (quads) are working harder
than ever before.

Doesn't surprise me. You've been so used to your current position
(which probably works your calves quite a bit) that your muscles will
be thoroughly unused to the new position, whatever it is. Same effect
happens with all sorts of positional changes.

I'm sure Sheldon covers this, he covers everything else under the sun,
but there's a few reasons why measurements based on inside leg don't
work. The main one is that some people prefer to ride with their heel
well down, whereas some prefer their heel up and toe pointed towards
the floor. Which people prefer how much of which style depends fairly
heavily on riding style, and it can make a couple of inches of
difference in saddle height compared to whatever measurement you're
using. More if you've got big feet.

Quoted message said:

For the purposes of a straw poll, how do YOU measure the distance from
saddle to pedal?

At work, I use the heel-on-pedal as a quick first adjustment, then ask
the customer how it felt. Some of them seem to want their feet flat on
the floor when they stop, some of them want their toes pointed straight
down when they're riding. I'll sound a note of caution if it looks
*too* lunatic, but at the end of the day it's what feels right to you.

Quoted message said:

Am I just going through a period of adjustment which will pay off in
the long term once (if) I get used to the new position?

Yes you're going through a period of adjustment, no it won't
necessarily pay off.

Perhaps a better question would be "Why are you changing?". If you
were perfectly happy before, no excess soreness, no knee or
(especially) hip problems from your too-high saddle, then stick with
it. What works for you wouldn't work for someone else, and all that.

Having said that, the one piece of advice I do stick with is to get
someone to ride along behind you and observe your backside (no,
seriously). If your hips are wobbling from side to side, you're
stretching too far to get to the pedals and you're probably
overextending knees and ankles, which isn't generally considered a good
thing. Dropping the saddle just far enough to stop the hip-wiggling is
probably a good idea on several levels...

in message <[email hidden]>, John Blake

(') said:

Looking for second and third opinions on "the correct" fit for a bike.

As I read Sheldon's website, there doesn't appear to be a commitment
to one measure or another in regards to saddle height.

The "best" fit is when one can place the heel of the foot on the pedal
in the lowest position. The alternative is 109% of inside leg length
for pedal at bottom position to position of saddle. There are other
views.

This is the rough metric I've always used, but to fine tune it:

(i) if your pelvis rocks in time to the pedalling stroke your saddle is
too high;

(ii) if you bounce in the saddle when pedalling really fast then your
saddle is too low.

In general, the best position of a saddle is far higher than most
beginners could possibly believe, and it is unlikely that you will be
able to get both tiptoes on the ground at the same time while sitting in
the saddle.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

There are no messages. The above is just a random stream of
bytes. Any opinion or meaning you find in it is your own creation.

John Blake <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Looking for second and third opinions on "the correct" fit for a bike.

As I read Sheldon's website, there doesn't appear to be a commitment
to one measure or another in regards to saddle height.

The "best" fit is when one can place the heel of the foot on the pedal
in the lowest position. The alternative is 109% of inside leg length
for pedal at bottom position to position of saddle. There are other
views.

Recently my LBS has insisted that I should adopt the "heel" method for
positioning the saddle - they saw how high the saddle was and set
about putting me right.

I have tried this for just a short while (three days and 54 miles) and
it feels like a lot of hard work compared to before. It "feels" too
low down with respect to the road and that my legs are in the wrong
position for "efficient" cycling. My thighs (quads) are working harder
than ever before.

For the purposes of a straw poll, how do YOU measure the distance from
saddle to pedal?

Am I just going through a period of adjustment which will pay off in
the long term once (if) I get used to the new position?

With my arthritic knees and hips I find the best position for the saddle is
to stand alongside the bike and have the saddle the same height as my hip
bone. Then I don't ride at any great speed but do do reasonable distances.
What I have never really worked out is handlebar height so I compromise and
have the bars the same height as the saddle. Works for me, probably not
others.

Good luck.

Quoted message said:

John Blake said:

Looking for second and third opinions on "the correct" fit for a bike.

Quoted message said:

From Peter Whites bike fitting article.....

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

"Once the crank length is determined, (by whatever means), the saddle
should be set at a nominal height. There is no objectively determined
ideal saddle height for any rider based on leg length alone. Some
riders naturally pedal toes down, while others have the foot in a more
level position. For starters, sit on the saddle with one leg hanging
free and your hips square, (not tilting to either side). Set the saddle
high enough so that your other heel can just touch the pedal with your
leg straight, and with the pedal at the bottom of the stroke, in line
with the seat tube. For most people this results in a saddle height
that leaves some bend in the knee at the bottom of the pedal stroke,
when you're pedaling with the balls of your feet over the axle of the
pedals. It also should prevent you from having to rock your hips
through each crank rotation. This gets you close enough to your optimum
saddle height that you can go through the rest of the fitting process
and fine tune saddle height later. Any later saddle height adjustments
shouldn't be enough to throw off the other adjustments."

Iain

In message <[email hidden]>

John Blake said:

I have tried this for just a short while (three days and 54 miles) and
it feels like a lot of hard work compared to before. It "feels" too
low down with respect to the road and that my legs are in the wrong
position for "efficient" cycling. My thighs (quads) are working harder
than ever before.

Recently I raised my saddle by an inch or so. I found an immediate increase
in my speed and ease of ridding. My opinion is do what feels right.

--
Typed by monkey #27662472869676 on typewriter #7552416572242
When emailing me, please include the word Banana in the subject line.

Bill said:

With my arthritic knees and hips

Arthritis has nothing to do with this.

Quoted message said:

I find the best position for the saddle is
to stand alongside the bike and have the saddle the same height as my hip
bone. Then I don't ride at any great speed but do do reasonable distances.

Any system based on height from the ground is fundmentally flawed,
because different bikes have a wide range of different bottom bracket
heights.

If you set an older road bike with a 10 1/2" BB height and a mountain
bike with a 12" BB height for the same ground to saddle distance, your
actual saddle height with respect to the pedals will differ by 1 1/2
inches, a HUGE disparity.

It also doesn't take crank length into account. There's a silly fad
afoot for long cranks, so, for instance, most mountain bikes now have
175 mm cranks, vs 170 for most older bikes. With longer cranks you
need to set the saddle lower to maintain the same reach to the bottom
of the pedal stroke.

Quoted message said:

What I have never really worked out is handlebar height so I compromise and
have the bars the same height as the saddle. Works for me, probably not
others.

Handlebar height vis-a-vis saddle height depends more upon your riding
style and intensity than on any of you skeletal dimensions.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/pain

Sheldon "High Enough, But Not Too High" Brown
Newtonville, Massachusetts, You Ess Ay
+-------------------------------------+
| One can never know what is enough |
| until one knows what is too much. |
| --William Blake |
+-------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

In message id <[email hidden]>
on 29 Aug 2005 01:47:06 -0700, Marvin wrote in uk.rec.cycling :

Quoted message said:

John Blake said:

Looking for second and third opinions on "the correct" fit for a bike.

As I read Sheldon's website, there doesn't appear to be a commitment
to one measure or another in regards to saddle height.

Doesn't surprise me. You've been so used to your current position
(which probably works your calves quite a bit) that your muscles will
be thoroughly unused to the new position, whatever it is. Same effect
happens with all sorts of positional changes.

Only change noticed so far is that quads are working much harder on an
incline and hamstrings never get / got fully stretched which for me is
one of the points of riding - to stretch the legs.

Quoted message said:

At work, I use the heel-on-pedal as a quick first adjustment, then ask
the customer how it felt. Some of them seem to want their feet flat on
the floor when they stop, some of them want their toes pointed straight
down when they're riding. I'll sound a note of caution if it looks
*too* lunatic, but at the end of the day it's what feels right to you.

Feet on floor / toe on floor? Is one supposed /expected to still be in
the saddle at this point? This does make a difference to my current
settings. If my feet need to touch the tarmac at the same level as the
tyres, I have to push off the saddle, move slightly forwards and then
as I am about to make contact tilt at an angle. This has always been
normal (15+ years on at least half a dozen bikes)

Quoted message said:

Perhaps a better question would be "Why are you changing?".

New bike. The previous version I had ownership of for 5 years and it
was a pig to use from first to last. There was the occasional day when
it was "more than tolerable" but for 18 months I wouldn't even use it.
It was a cheap bike when bought and I made my mind up that next time
around it would be something I would actually want to ride so fit
became a factor, hence the extended discussion with the LBS.

Quoted message said:

If you
were perfectly happy before, no excess soreness, no knee or
(especially) hip problems from your too-high saddle, then stick with
it. What works for you wouldn't work for someone else, and all that.

Difficult to compare now with different machines and different
geometry. When I did the test ride on the new bike, I came back to the
LBS with the seat post about 12" higher than what they had given me
(although it still hadn't reached its minimum insertion point!).

Never had problems with joints or muscles other than fatigue in the
15+ years.

Quoted message said:

Having said that, the one piece of advice I do stick with is to get
someone to ride along behind you and observe your backside (no,
seriously). If your hips are wobbling from side to side, you're
stretching too far to get to the pedals and you're probably
overextending knees and ankles, which isn't generally considered a good
thing. Dropping the saddle just far enough to stop the hip-wiggling is
probably a good idea on several levels...

Never encountered or was conscious of this before. The LBS did mention
it and they had a look to see if it was obvious but no. I am now
looking at other riders around me to see what their positions are on
the bike and their "action" for comparisons.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

In message id <[email hidden]> on
Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:06:32 +0100, Simon Brooke wrote in uk.rec.cycling
:

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, John Blake

(') said:

Looking for second and third opinions on "the correct" fit for a bike.

As I read Sheldon's website, there doesn't appear to be a commitment
to one measure or another in regards to saddle height.

The "best" fit is when one can place the heel of the foot on the pedal
in the lowest position. The alternative is 109% of inside leg length
for pedal at bottom position to position of saddle. There are other
views.

This is the rough metric I've always used, but to fine tune it:

(i) if your pelvis rocks in time to the pedalling stroke your saddle is
too high;

Never noticed this/ I am not conscious of it.

Quoted message said:

(ii) if you bounce in the saddle when pedalling really fast then your
saddle is too low.

Am bouncing at the moment but I think this is the suspension seat post
which may disappear after the first service (new bike). However, it
may as you suggest be a position being too low despite it being
already beyond the heel bottom pedal / 109% range.

Quoted message said:

In general, the best position of a saddle is far higher than most
beginners could possibly believe, and it is unlikely that you will be
able to get both tiptoes on the ground at the same time while sitting in
the saddle.

I have never been able to do this on any bike. So maybe I am riding
too high.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

in message <[email hidden]>, John Blake

(') said:

In message id <[email hidden]> on
Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:06:32 +0100, Simon Brooke wrote in uk.rec.cycling
:

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, John Blake

(') said:

Looking for second and third opinions on "the correct" fit for a
bike.

As I read Sheldon's website, there doesn't appear to be a commitment
to one measure or another in regards to saddle height.

The "best" fit is when one can place the heel of the foot on the
pedal in the lowest position. The alternative is 109% of inside leg
length for pedal at bottom position to position of saddle. There are
other views.

This is the rough metric I've always used, but to fine tune it:

(i) if your pelvis rocks in time to the pedalling stroke your saddle is
too high;

Never noticed this/ I am not conscious of it.

Then try a bit higher.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

' ' <------- this blank intentionally spaced left