Bicycle Rack Mishaps?

In article said:

Craig Brossman said:

I guess because it doesn't make sense in the big city, it doesn't make sense here. Oh well, it
seems ludicrous to me that you really care.

Heheh...me? City? I don't think so. I avoid the city (see recent thread about eliminating cars and
trucks).

I don't really care that much, just seems rather out of place and silly. It gives me a laugh just
like seeing an old lady in a big off-road SUV with a staircase up to the driver's seat.
--
Rick Onanian

Saw an Excursion on I-95 yesterday with a Thule Space case on the roof.

The driver, the only occupant, was a a smallish lady.

How did she get in that thing?...or reach the Space Case?

Get a bigger vehicle.

HAND - eat lots of turkey, then ride it off!

--
"Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness"

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

Quoted message said:

Minivans are pretty good for most of that comfort, too. But if they're spending that much money
(ever priced a nicely equipped minivan? Especially with AWD for slippery weather...) and driving a
vehicle that's excessive for them anyway, they might as well have one that looks nice and is
fun...so they buy the full size SUV (big station wagon) or the "pickup" that's really a sedan.

Guess different folks have different definitions of "looks nice and is fun"

Our Odyssey handles like a sports car compared to the SUV's and pickups I get to drive for work. The
ride is much more comfortable than a truck-based vehicle, plus entry/exit is breeze.

As for usefulness, only the largest SUV's will let you roll a tandem inside (We have an old "beater"
Toyota pickup for commuting and hauling dirty stuff).

Finally, the price issue. Our loaded Ody (only option not on it is Navigation) was cheaper than
a stripped Explorer. The only SUVs which appear to be cheaper are the compact models, like a
Ford Escape.

It's no contest for our needs/wants.

Chris Neary [email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the
elements I loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:12:19 GMT, "Buck" <s c h w i n n _ f o r _ s a l e @ h o t m a i l . c

o m said:

Manure has no place inside a closed vehicle. I feel the same way about putting muddy bikes inside a
vehicle. You never know what you are bringing on board.

I park my muddy bike in the office where I work, about 5 feet from the computer. My bike has never
smelled like manure. Sometimes I think it IS manure, but that's a different story...

Quoted message said:

-Buck

--
Rick Onanian

Zoot Katz said:

Quoted message said:

This isn't about what _can_ be done. It's about what _is_ done. I rarely see working SUVs, and
have _never_ seen a working "pickup" with the extra-short bed. Now they even commonly come with
hard covers over the "bed"; that makes it a trunk, and the vehicle becomes a really large sedan.
That makes quite a nice car, really.

Really? Until you get hit by one - then you might wish it had been a compact passenger sedan that
at least gives some design consideration to pedestrian crash survival.

I didn't say that it was environmentally or crash-opponent friendly. It's not. I only said that
it's nice.

That's why I think there should be cars that offer similar comfort, and why I think that a lot of
full-size-SUV owners logically ought to drive minivans. However, logic isn't the only thing to
consider, else there would be very few choices...
--
Rick Onanian

Quoted message said:

I agree, but people continue to buy those 4-door trucks with the extra-small bed and the hard
cover (which then becomes a trunk, making the vehicle a sedan). It may have something to do with
the comfort, discussed below.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there were similarly comfortable cars on the market, many of those consumers would buy such
a car instead.

No, most (but not all) people buy trucks for the image and percieved safety. They say other
things to make you think otherwise, but when you find out what their real needs are it becomes
pretty clear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is so comfortable about a pickup truck? That ain't the point of a truck, is it?

It doesn't matter what the point is; the end result is that a modern full size pickup is a very
comfortable vehicle. I assume that full size SUVs, or at least GM and Ford ones that share nearly
all components with pickups (including platform and interior), are just as comfortable.

Why is that comfortable? There's room to relax. The ride (as in suspension & tires) is a good
balance of "sporty" and "plush".

You really need to drive a modern car if you think full size SUVs are "sporty" and "plush". That's
laughable. Sorry, but it really is. I just don't equate bumbling, cumbersome, bouncing, wallowing,
slow full size trucks with sporty, and yes I have driven them. And while some might call the ride
plush, I call it sloppy and poorly controlled. There are many cars out there that ride nicer without
the big loss of handling dynamics heavy trucks suffer from.

I find our Honda Civic to handle, drive and even ride nicer than a full-size truck. And it has
better, more supportive seats to boot. Maybe if I were 100 pounds or so overweight the seats in a
full-size truck would fit me, or maybe my prior back problems make me pretty picky when it comes to
proper support. I have a 4Runner 4x4 also, but prefer driving the Honda, as any driving enthusiast
would, it is just a nicer driving vehicle. And contrary to popular belief, it handles icy roads
better as well.

(Phil) said:

Quoted message said:

I observe trucks on the road and see trucks fitting these descriptions:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Yes I see those too. But they are the minority, just like SUVs used as SUVs are in the minority.

Maybe it's regional. As much as I observe, I don't see many full size pickups that don't fit one of
those categories.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

full-size pickup to pull their 2000 pound snowmobile trailer.

I suppose a compact pickup or a mid-size/large SUV could do that. Most cars and compact
SUVs can't.

Many can, more than you think. Most people grossly overestimate what they need for towing. They
figure if they can't climb a mountain at 75 mph while towing 7000 lbs it just won't do, even though
most have absolutely no need for that. Most full size cars are capable of pulling 2000 lbs, as well
as most compact SUVs. Even my wife's Civic can pull 1000 lbs, which would be about one snowmobile
or jet ski with trailer. No it's not ideal for that but it will get the job done.

My concern is legal tow ratings. Even though it's easy enough to tow a heavier trailer than your
car is legal for, it's unreasonable to ask people to do so. Are there compact cars with 2000 pound
tow ratings?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

supportive, split bench seats. New cars crunch me into positions I normally reserve for my road
bike...

That's your opinion. I find my wife's Civic comfortable enough and I'm 6'3". I find most full-size
pickup seats to be very flat and unsupportive, the ride bouncy, the handling poor, and abysmal
manuverability. No, comfort is not a strong suit of trucks IMO. The

Comfort is subjective, but the reasons I gave apply to some (or many) people. Either way, for people
who like that, there's no car available.

Quoted message said:

space is nice though. In fact I'd say the space in full-size trucks and SUVs is a major factor in
some people's decision to buy one that they would otherwise have no use for. But wait, isn't that
sound reasoning by what you just wrote? It appears to be difficult to please you.

I'm not asking to be pleased. I'm just talking about how silly it is to see bike racks on empty
pickup trucks and SUVs (why did they buy it anyway?), and how annoying it is when there's a
pickup and an SUV in the driveway and my girlfriend says "Let's take the truck" and we walk to
different vehicles.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If, OTOH, you're afraid to put your bike inside it, then it doesn't sound like a very useful
"truck" to me. That is, after all, how we

I agree completely on that one. If I wanted a car, that's what I would have bought. Who cares if
there's a few scratches or it gets some dirt in it, I paid the premium an SUV demands because that
is what I needed. It would be silly not to use it, as I could have bought a much nicer car for
that price.

You've summed it up nicely, there. I really hadn't come up with the words to express that angle.

Quoted message said:

And yes this is a bit off topic so I'll stop now, but you are the one who brought it here.

Actually, that's closer to on-topic than the rest of this message, and it's exactly how we got to
the "It's a truck" vs. "It's not a truck" issue. I said that if somebody's afraid to put their bike
in an empty truck, then they probably shouldn't call it a truck at all.
--
Rick Onanian

Chris Neary said:

Guess different folks have different definitions of "looks nice and is fun"

Indeed, that is very true.

Quoted message said:

As for usefulness, only the largest SUV's will let you roll a tandem inside

Agreed. That's part of what I was saying.

Quoted message said:

Finally, the price issue. Our loaded Ody (only option not on it is Navigation) was cheaper than
a stripped Explorer. The only SUVs which appear to be cheaper are the compact models, like a
Ford Escape.

Eh? The base Ody model lists at $25,000. The Ford Explorer Sport lists at $22,500.

Quoted message said:

It's no contest for our needs/wants.

That's because you used logic. For many people, a minivan is a better choice than the SUV
that they buy.

Quoted message said:

Chris Neary [email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the
elements I loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

--
Rick Onanian

(Phil) said:

Quoted message said:

It doesn't matter what the point is; the end result is that a modern full size pickup is a very
comfortable vehicle. I assume that full size SUVs, or at least GM and Ford ones that share nearly
all components with pickups (including platform and interior), are just as comfortable.

Why is that comfortable? There's room to relax. The ride (as in suspension & tires) is a good
balance of "sporty" and "plush".

You really need to drive a modern car if you think full size SUVs are "sporty" and "plush". That's
laughable. Sorry, but it really is. I just don't equate bumbling, cumbersome, bouncing, wallowing,
slow full size trucks with sporty, and yes I have driven them. And while some

The _ride_ is a _balance_ of "sporty" and "plush". I didn't say that the handling was. Most
consumers care little about handling.

My truck, a 2002 GMC Sierra 1500 without any off-road package or gnarly tires, with the 5.3 engine,
does not fit any of the words you suggested above. It doesn't handle like a sports car, but I can
sail it around curves when I need to, without any wallowing. It certainly doesn't bounce, and
absorbs bumps nicely...I can't say that about the compact car I drove, nor my sister's 2002 Nissan
Maxima (which handles better, but rides a little harsh).

Quoted message said:

might call the ride plush, I call it sloppy and poorly controlled.

Then you like a sportier ride. That's subjective. That's why there's variety.

Quoted message said:

There are many cars out there that ride nicer without the big loss of handling dynamics heavy
trucks suffer from.

Maybe for you. For those who like a ride as plush as a full-size pickup (excluding heavy duty
models) with appropriate street tires (off-road packages include harsh, noisy tires), there are few
car options with a similar ride.

Quoted message said:

I find our Honda Civic to handle, drive and even ride nicer than a full-size truck. And it has
better, more supportive seats to boot.

I hate "supportive" bucket seats. They intrude in all the wrong places for me.

Quoted message said:

picky when it comes to proper support. I have a 4Runner 4x4 also, but prefer driving the Honda, as
any driving enthusiast would, it is just

Key words: Driving enthusiast. Most consumers are not, even if many fancy themselves to want
sporty handling.

Quoted message said:

a nicer driving vehicle. And contrary to popular belief, it handles icy roads better as well.

Popular belief is wrong. An AWD car is ideal. A FWD car is okay too.

After coming from a "sporty" compact car, I'm so happy to have some interior room where I can spread
out, and a plush ride. It's been over a year, and lately I find that I'd _occasionally_ like to
drive a sporty car. Along those lines, I've been considering getting a beat-up Camaro just to quench
my thirst occasionally, but I can't justify the expense...but when all is said and done, I still
want to go home to my comfortable truck.
--
Rick Onanian

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I park my muddy bike in the office where I work, about 5 feet from the computer. My bike has never
smelled like manure. Sometimes I think it IS manure, but that's a different story...

I had a harsh reminder about the difference between what looks clean and what is clean. My front
patio drains into my neighbor's yard (these are zero lot-line houses and much of the drainage is
taken care of by french drains) where the french drain carries the runoff to the street. My
neighbor's dog likes to bury the drain. So when we got four inches of rain in three hours, the patio
was filling up nicely and the water was threatening to come into the house. Off I went to clear the
drain. The water was nice and clear and the drain wasn't too hard to find. But as I cleared away the
dirt and debris, the foul stench of fresh dog poo wafted up my nose. Yes, I was essentially standing
in a large dog toilet.

We never know what we are carrying around when we muddy our bikes. Even road bikes get some pretty
nasty stuff on them, especially if we ride in the rain. That's one reason I always keep them
*outside* the vehicle. No poo or oily scum to worry about the next time the kids are in the car and
say, "Daddy, what's this stuff on the door?"

-Buck

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:12:19 GMT, "Buck" <s c h w i n n _ f o r _ s a l e @ h o t m a i l . c

o m said:

Manure has no place inside a closed vehicle.

You've finally done it: provided me with the single most convincing reason why many of the radical
bicycle advocates on this list should be car-free.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

(Phil) said:

Quoted message said:

I observe trucks on the road and see trucks fitting these descriptions:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Yes I see those too. But they are the minority, just like SUVs used as SUVs are in the minority.

Maybe it's regional. As much as I observe, I don't see many full size pickups that don't fit one
of those categories.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>full-size pickup to pull their 2000 pound snowmobile trailer.

I suppose a compact pickup or a mid-size/large SUV could do that. Most cars and compact SUVs
can't.

Many can, more than you think. Most people grossly overestimate what they need for towing. They
figure if they can't climb a mountain at 75 mph while towing 7000 lbs it just won't do, even
though most have absolutely no need for that. Most full size cars are capable of pulling 2000
lbs, as well as most compact SUVs. Even my wife's Civic can pull 1000 lbs, which would be about
one snowmobile or jet ski with trailer. No it's not ideal for that but it will get the job done.

My concern is legal tow ratings. Even though it's easy enough to tow a heavier trailer than your
car is legal for, it's unreasonable to ask people to do so. Are there compact cars with 2000 pound
tow ratings?

I don't know about compacts; most of them are 1000lbs. My old diesel Escort was 1000lb, as is my
Focus. You probably have to go up to mid- size to get 2000lb ratings.

...

Quoted message said:

truck" issue. I said that if somebody's afraid to put their bike in an empty truck, then they
probably shouldn't call it a truck at all.

Even if somebody else would use it like a truck. That's probably a pretty good summary.

Quoted message said:

--
Rick Onanian

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

Buck said:

While we currently have one of each, a truck and a 4-door sedan, we will be replacing the old
truck with a newer 4-door model when the time is right. It's much more convenient to have two
passenger haulers when you have kids. It's also better to have one that can haul the loads as well
as the kids instead of owning three vehicles. Sure, I could own two cars and only rent a truck
when I needed one, but that would mean lining the pockets of rent a wreck at least twice a month.
I am fortunate that I rarely need the capacity of a long bed full-size truck, except in the
passenger compartment. I figure that this is true for most 4-door truck owners, thus the boom in
that market.

As I've said before: get a trailer.

If you "rarely need the capacity of a long bed full-size truck, except in the passenger
compartment," then what you need is a car. When you need to haul, you hitch up the trailer.

Don't do only what's advertised on TV. Think outside the box - or, in this case, outside the
pickup bed.

--
Frank Krygowski

Zippy the Pinhead said:

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:12:19 GMT, "Buck" <s c h w i n n _ f o r _ s a l e @ h o t m a i l . c o

m said:

Manure has no place inside a closed vehicle.

You've finally done it: provided me with the single most convincing reason why many of the radical
bicycle advocates on this list should be car-free.

Amendment: Myself included.

Rick Onanian wrote, about his pickup truck:

Quoted message said:

The _ride_ is a _balance_ of "sporty" and "plush". I didn't say that the handling was. Most
consumers care little about handling.

My truck, a 2002 GMC Sierra 1500 without any off-road package or gnarly tires, with the 5.3
engine, does not fit any of the words you suggested above. It doesn't handle like a sports car,
but I can sail it around curves when I need to, without any wallowing. It certainly doesn't
bounce, and absorbs bumps nicely...I can't say that about the compact car I drove, nor my sister's
2002 Nissan Maxima (which handles better, but rides a little harsh).

To give you the benefit of the doubt, I'll note that I've never driven a 2002 Nissan.

Still, you are unique in being the _only_ person I've ever heard of who thought pickup trucks had a
better ride than cars.

Consider: auto companies spend millions of dollars on research, computer-aided design, testing and
measuring to give their cars a pleasant ride. With trucks, this is a much lower priority, and it's
hampered by the need to accommodate cowboys hauling water tanks over washboard dirt roads. To think
the car companies would accidentally do better with trucks than with cars seems odd, at best.

But the phrase about sailing trucks around curves did make sense to me, based on my experience.
Sailing, as in: "Hoist the mains'l! Swing the boom to port - no, not that way, port!! Now give me
some rudder! You there, grab that line!"

"We're going to make it, matey, we're going to make the turn! Long live the cap'n!"

"Now let's get this thing parallel parked. Where's that damn tugboat?"

--
Frank Krygowski

"frkrygowHALTSPAM" <"frkrygowHALTSPAM"@cc.ysu.edu> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As I've said before: get a trailer.

If you "rarely need the capacity of a long bed full-size truck, except in the passenger
compartment," then what you need is a car. When you need to haul, you hitch up the trailer.

Don't do only what's advertised on TV. Think outside the box - or, in this case, outside the
pickup bed.

Perhaps you haven't followed the whole thread. I regularly use the bed on my small truck. I just
need more passenger space. A trailer is not feasible. I have no place to store one. The garage is
full of bikes and the access to the back yard is a single person gate. Besides, who wants to mess up
the fine finish of a car with a nasty ol' receiver hitch?

I'll be looking for a small or mid-size four door truck to replace the old one. Plenty of cargo room
for my needs, space for five passengers, decent gas mileage, and a real hitch for a bike rack or
heavier loads.

The old truck is starting to look mangier by the minute!

-Buck

Buck said:

"frkrygowHALTSPAM" <"frkrygowHALTSPAM"@cc.ysu.edu> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As I've said before: get a trailer.

...

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you haven't followed the whole thread. I regularly use the bed on my small truck. I just
need more passenger space. A trailer is not feasible. I have no place to store one. The garage is
full of bikes and the access to the back yard is a single person gate. Besides, who wants to mess
up the fine finish of a car with a nasty ol' receiver hitch?

Well, I don't know the minute details of your situation, obviously, so what I'm about to say may not
work for you. However, I'm convinced there are large numbers of people who would be better off using
a trailer, rather than buying a pickup truck.

Most people seem to grossly overestimate (or overrationalize) the number of times they'll need that
pickup bed space. And most of the pickup drivers I know would end their "truck justification" speech
with "Besides, I think pickups are cool," thereby giving away their _real_ reason.

I've mentioned this before: I built a small trailer for this sort of occasional use. It's hauled
pickup-loads of topsoil, and landscape rocks, and camping gear, and bicycles, and big furniture, etc
etc. It's taken loads hundreds of miles and barely affects the car's gas mileage.

But almost all the time, it sits in my garage, propped vertical against the wall, taking up almost
no floor space, waiting for its next rare use.

--
Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Finally, the price issue. Our loaded Ody (only option not on it is Navigation) was cheaper than a
stripped Explorer. The only SUVs which appear to be cheaper are the compact models, like a Ford
Escape.

Eh? The base Ody model lists at $25,000. The Ford Explorer Sport lists at $22,500.

I stand corrected.

If you remove two of the doors, an Explorer can be cheaper than a Ody.

How that affects the price/utility relationship is another question. :-)

Chris Neary

David L. Johnson said:

Rick Onanian said:

What bothers me is people with empty pickup trucks, vans, and full size SUVs, using trunk racks
or hitch racks. If they're not going to put stuff in there, they'd probably be better served by
a smaller vehicle.

I've puzzled about this, too. I've seen a number of big 'ol SUVs pulling a trailer, in which was
a small load of stuff -- which would easily have fit inside. I presume they don't want to scuff
the leather interior with their shingles or whatever. But then, why buy a truck if you aren't
going to use it?

Because advertising has convinced them that the SUV will make other people think that they are
rugged outdoor types, while if they drive a much more sensible minivan or station wagon they will be
perceived as stodgy suburban soccer parents.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Rick Onanian said:

David L. Johnson said:

Rick Onanian said:

I don't buy it. I rarely see full size trucks that aren't working trucks...except play trucks
that actually do go off-road. Even most of those plow in the winter.

C'mon. Most of these big trucks, be they humongo-SUVs or 4-door pickups,

I will not have the word "truck" sullied with SUVs and 4-door extra-short-bed "pickups"! I will
haul a bunch of wrecking equipment around and destroy any one I see that somebody claims is a
"truck".

Quoted message said:

never see either real hauling or mud. The whole point is to have this

I see the problem now...I'm offended by calling anything that isn't good for work a truck, so I
naturally only think of work-able vehicles when somebody says truck. Then, when somebody says
trucks aren't doing work, I can't believe it because I forget that they are referring to SUVs as
trucks....

SUV's and the 4-door vehicles with tiny beds are considered trucks (in the USA) for CAFE, safety
regulations, emissions regulations, and in some cases tax purposes. In almost all cases, regulations
are less stringent for "trucks" than passenger automobiles. A large part of the popularity of these
"passenger trucks" stems from them being subject to less regulation.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Rick Onanian said:

... There is comfort. My work truck is more comfortable than any car I've ever been in, except an
old Cadillac (new ones suck). There's actually room for my elbows and knees; there's properly
placed support for them too; there's room for a passenger to put their arm on the center armrest
too; and the split bench seat is not as restrictive as a bucket while being properly supportive
and individually adjustable. The old Caddy had similar, though less supportive, split bench seats.
New cars crunch me into positions I normally reserve for my road bike....

I find that the seats in traditional US luxury cars (big boat Caddys and Lincolns) to be terribly
uncomfortable due to the lack of proper support. The seats in my Honda Civic are much better, as
they use quite firm foam.

This however, is the most comfortable vehicle I have sat in/on terms of ride and seat support.
<http://home.mindspring.com/~kb7mxu/images/DragonFlyer.jpg>

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth