bi and delt dilemma

On 16 Aug 2005 08:32:46 -0700, "hanson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I partially guage how good a workout was by how the muscle feels the
day or two after a workout.

That's a bad way to judge how good a workout was.

Quoted message said:

I successfully get a "good ache" in my chest, tris, and quads.
I have a much more difficult time getting that
"good ache" in my bi's, and the medial head of my delts (the anterior /
posterior delt heads get worked well).

Presumably your biceps and delts are used to being worked
and therefore don't ache so much.

Quoted message said:

Questions:

1) Is the "ache" a good measure of how hard I have worked a muscle?

No. It's more a measure of how long it is since you worked
it last.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

hanson said:

I partially guage how good a workout was by how the muscle feels the
day or two after a workout. I successfully get a "good ache" in my
chest, tris, and quads. I have a much more difficult time getting that
"good ache" in my bi's, and the medial head of my delts (the anterior /
posterior delt heads get worked well).

It sounds like you're looking in the mirror and only working the muscles
you see there. Hams, glutes, lats all need attention, too. And all of
them ought to feel sore now and then.

I don't get soreness in my biceps or shoulders, either. I figure the
muscles just aren't that big.

Quoted message said:

1) Is the "ache" a good measure of how hard I have worked a muscle?

Absolutely not. You won't hardly ever get DOMS after you've been doing
a routine for a while.

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts will be appreciated....

You can't use the name Hanson, it's already taken. Sorry.

Dally

hanson said:

I partially guage how good a workout
was by how the muscle feels the day
or two after a workout.

SNIP

Quoted message said:

1) Is the "ache" a good measure of
how hard I have worked a muscle?

Isn't that all relative to your fitness level or strength possessed?
You've got to inject some of that progressive into your progressive
resistance training or their will be insufficient stress to create that
DOMS feeling, right? And, no, I do not have any peer-reviewed anything
here. I'm asking a question.

Hmm. Excuse me... GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND!

"Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) is a normal response to unusual
exertion and is part of an adaptation process that leads to greater
stamina and strength as the muscles recover and build."
/quote from

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/injuries/a/doms.htm

And re biceps and delts:

"Activities that require muscles to forcefully contract while they are
lengthening, (eccentric contractions), seem to cause the most soreness.
You use eccentric contractions when you descend stairs, run downhill,
lower a weight, or perform the downward motion of squats and push-ups.
In addition to muscle tearing, swelling can occur in and around a
muscle, which can also cause soreness hours later."
/quote from same URL

That paragraph above would indicate a reason why you're not feeling
/the good ache/ as a result of your curls and your presses, right? No?
*I don't know.*

Quoted message said:

2) For bi's: I might perform SNIP

More questions and non-peer-reviewed scribbling...

You wrote about proper form. Is your form actually *correct*? I hate
when I see people perform rapid, sloppy half or even one-quarter curls.
They don't fully extend their arms and they don't fully contract their
arms. AND they don't pause at the top and SQUEEEEEEEZE their biceps.
WTF!?

Mother Nature gave me great quads and looong biceps. She screwed me on
the shoulder width and my hips are never going to be described as a
wasp waist, but I do enjoy my curls. I get a great pump and I think
part of that is due to the form that I use.

Quoted message said:

Why would I have such a hard time
getting my bi's and medial delts to
ache? Should try more/less reps or
sets? Is there something different
about these muscles?

Try slowing the speed of your repetitions. Try contracting your muscles
more forcefully while doing your curls and presses. Try waiting for a
peer-reviewed m.f.w'er to come along and tell us the true tale! I will.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

hanson said:

I partially guage how good a workout was by how the muscle feels the
day or two after a workout. I successfully get a "good ache" in my
chest, tris, and quads. I have a much more difficult time getting that
"good ache" in my bi's, and the medial head of my delts (the anterior /
posterior delt heads get worked well).

Questions:

1) Is the "ache" a good measure of how hard I have worked a muscle?

Not necessarily. I've seen answers of "no" and "absolutely not," and
those aren't quite accurate either. It can be an indicator of "how
hard" you worked a muscle, but that doesn't have anything to do with
whether you will receive optimal muscular adaptation. That "ache" may
even be counter-productive. Simply put, delayed-onset muscle soreness
(DOMS) is not the touchstone for achieving strength and muscular
hypertrophy.

Quoted message said:

2) For bi's: I might perform barbell curls, 4-6 reps until exaustion
with good form, then an additional 2-3 more forced reps per set. Then
dumbell curls of some sort. Total of 6-8 sets for bi's.

If you're worried about biceps and deltoids, you're probably more
interested in hypertrophy than functional strength. Try increasing
your rep range to 6-12 reps.

And if your goal is the "big gunz" bit, you should start working your
triceps: skullcrushers, cable pressdowns, seated tricep presses, etc.
It will make your biceps look bigger. Really.

Quoted message said:

For delts: I might perform military press then should press of some
sort.

Try to some lateral raises. Bend your elbows a bit, and use heavy
weights. Upright rows are OK if you don't raise the bar above your
nipples; going higher risks rotator cuff impingement.

Quoted message said:

Why would I have such a hard time getting my bi's and medial delts to
ache?

Why would you want that? It's unnecessary.

Quoted message said:

Should try more/less reps or sets?

See above.

Quoted message said:

Is there something different
about these muscles?

No. There may be something different about *your* muscles as compared
to the next guys; muscle shape is determined by your personal
genetics. But intentionally trying to cause DOMS won't change that.

hanson said:

I partially guage how good a workout was by how the muscle feels the
day or two after a workout. I successfully get a "good ache" in my
chest, tris, and quads. I have a much more difficult time getting that
"good ache" in my bi's, and the medial head of my delts (the anterior /
posterior delt heads get worked well).

Questions:

1) Is the "ache" a good measure of how hard I have worked a muscle?

2) For bi's: I might perform barbell curls, 4-6 reps until exaustion
with good form, then an additional 2-3 more forced reps per set. Then
dumbell curls of some sort. Total of 6-8 sets for bi's.

For delts: I might perform military press then should press of some
sort.

Why would I have such a hard time getting my bi's and medial delts to
ache? Should try more/less reps or sets? Is there something different
about these muscles?

Any thoughs will be appreciated....

Well, they're smaller.

I gauge progress by adding weight to the bar; what are your poundages like?

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:48:33 -0400, Dally <[email hidden]> wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

hanson said:

I partially guage how good a workout was by how the muscle feels the
day or two after a workout. I successfully get a "good ache" in my
chest, tris, and quads. I have a much more difficult time getting that
"good ache" in my bi's, and the medial head of my delts (the anterior /
posterior delt heads get worked well).

It sounds like you're looking in the mirror and only working the muscles
you see there. Hams, glutes, lats all need attention, too. And all of
them ought to feel sore now and then.

I don't get soreness in my biceps or shoulders, either. I figure the
muscles just aren't that big.

Quoted message said:

1) Is the "ache" a good measure of how hard I have worked a muscle?

Absolutely not. You won't hardly ever get DOMS after you've been doing
a routine for a while.

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts will be appreciated....

You can't use the name Hanson, it's already taken. Sorry.

Yeah, really.

John Hanson said:

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:48:33 -0400, Dally <[email hidden]> wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

hanson said:

I partially guage how good a workout was by how the muscle feels the
day or two after a workout. I successfully get a "good ache" in my
chest, tris, and quads. I have a much more difficult time getting that
"good ache" in my bi's, and the medial head of my delts (the anterior /
posterior delt heads get worked well).

It sounds like you're looking in the mirror and only working the muscles
you see there. Hams, glutes, lats all need attention, too. And all of
them ought to feel sore now and then.

I don't get soreness in my biceps or shoulders, either. I figure the
muscles just aren't that big.

Quoted message said:

1) Is the "ache" a good measure of how hard I have worked a muscle?

Absolutely not. You won't hardly ever get DOMS after you've been doing
a routine for a while.

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts will be appreciated....

You can't use the name Hanson, it's already taken. Sorry.

Yeah, really.

Whew. I wondered what Hanson was doing asking such a newbie question.
I figured he was trolling, but it didn't read like him. Now I realize
it wasn't him. All's well.

- bc

No trolls here!

So, DOMS is not the goal... [Figures... I just did a tri workout with
extensive forced negatives. (tricep extensions and dips with force
negatives.) My tri's still hurt a bit 2 days later...]

Am I correct that about 10-15 years ago "conventional wisdom" said that
forced negatives were a good thing???

John Hanson axed:

Quoted message said:

What is the difference between
negatives and forced negatives?

(buzzes in)

Negatives are when you lower a weight - normally after a partner or
spotter has helped you lift the weight - while *forced* negatives would
be when you lower the weight against extra resistance exerted on the
bar by a spotter?

(waits for judges)

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

On 20 Aug 2005 00:29:44 -0700, "Curt James" <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

John Hanson axed:

Quoted message said:

What is the difference between
negatives and forced negatives?

(buzzes in)

Negatives are when you lower a weight - normally after a partner or
spotter has helped you lift the weight - while *forced* negatives would
be when you lower the weight against extra resistance exerted on the
bar by a spotter?

(waits for judges)

Then I would have to say that anyone who does forced negatives is a
freakin' idiot. How the hell would you measure that? Why not just
add more weight?

John Hanson said:

Then I would have to say that anyone who does forced negatives is a
freakin' idiot. How the hell would you measure that? Why not just
add more weight?

The voices John, the voices...
<BANG>

TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

John Hanson said:

"Curt James" <[email hidden]> wrote

SNIP

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is the difference between
negatives and forced negatives?

Negatives are when you lower a weight -
normally after a partner or spotter has
helped you lift the weight - while *forced*
negatives would be when you lower the weight
against extra resistance exerted on the bar
by a spotter?

Then I would have to say that anyone who does
forced negatives is a freakin' idiot. How the
hell would you measure that? Why not just
add more weight?

heh

True. But I believe the OP or whoever you originally asked that
question of just typed the wrong term or, rather, was thinking of
forced _reps_ or just negatives. I was simply trying to look at the
term and define it from the perspective of what the person HAD written
which was /forced negatives/. Notice the QUESTION MARK! <g>

But to answer your (probably rhetorical) questions:

You couldn't measure it. But there would be a distinction or difference
between /just add more weight/ and the process of having a spotter add
additional pressure. Those 2 1/2-lbs. plates would add five pounds
while a skilled spotter could add an additional half-pound of pressure
or less to really make the trainer work to keep that bar from touching
down on his or her sternum, right?

No peer-reviewed nothing, but I can see something like /forced
negatives/ being dangerous if the spotter just *jumped on the bar*, but
beneficial if skillfully laying on the pressure.

Me? I'm a fan of straight reps for my sets and finishing off with some
extremely slow negs. Especially in db benches and overhead presses.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

In article <[email hidden]>,

Curt James said:

John Hanson axed:

Quoted message said:

What is the difference between
negatives and forced negatives?

(buzzes in)

Negatives are when you lower a weight - normally after a partner or
spotter has helped you lift the weight - while *forced* negatives would
be when you lower the weight against extra resistance exerted on the
bar by a spotter?

(waits for judges)

Negatives are the lowering part.

Forced negatives happen when somebody forces you to do the negatives
after you've failed, by helping you lift the weight and then letting
you lower it.

Seth
--
Who cares? Shut up and lift. -- Watson (the pencil neck) Davis

Seth Breidbart wrote:
I scribbled:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

John Hanson axed:

Quoted message said:

What is the difference between
negatives and forced negatives?

(buzzes in)

Negatives are SNIP
while *forced* negatives would be SNIP

(waits for judges)

Negatives are the lowering part.

Forced negatives happen when somebody forces
you to do the negatives after you've failed,
by helping you lift the weight and then letting
you lower it.

And which country do you represent? Because I wanted to reply with...

"And the judge from Canada says..."

Uh, never mind.

But thank you for answering the question!

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/