Bettini on drugs?

Gary said:

Okay, why isn't there an outcry that not only Bettini but the whole
Italian squad MUST be on drugs because he won? Where are the guys who
can prove Bettini is on drugs because some Italian cousin once disposed
of a needle within 1,000 miles of Bettini? where are all the "the whole
peloton is on drugs" guys? Come on, guys? Is it that you LIKE Bettini
and therefore, are silent? You are sure showing your anti-Lance bias by
being so selective in your accusations now. You're showing your true
motivations. Come on, fellas. How about some Bettini bashing!

*BITES*

I assume Bettini is on the take as everyone else (including Lance-baby). A difference are of course Lance actions against Bassons and Simeoni. THAT is one of the main reasons why I (and many with me) think Lance is a hypocrite and shows that he isn't interested in cleaning his sport at all.

Bettini didn't attack those fighting for clean cycling, he just ignores them. Lance did go into unfair, childish attacks. What does that show us?

Tuschinski said:

I assume Bettini is on the take as everyone else (including
Lance-baby). A difference are of course Lance actions against Bassons
and Simeoni. THAT is one of the main reasons why I (and many with me)
think Lance is a hypocrite and shows that he isn't interested in
cleaning his sport at all.

Bettini didn't attack those fighting for clean cycling, he just ignores
them. Lance did go into unfair, childish attacks. What does that show
us?

Well said.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Gary said:

Okay, why isn't there an outcry that not only Bettini but the whole
Italian squad MUST be on drugs because he won? Where are the guys who
can prove Bettini is on drugs because some Italian cousin once
disposed of a needle within 1,000 miles of Bettini? where are all the
"the whole peloton is on drugs" guys? Come on, guys? Is it that you
LIKE Bettini and therefore, are silent? You are sure showing your
anti-Lance bias by being so selective in your accusations now. You're
showing your true motivations. Come on, fellas. How about some Bettini
bashing!

Bettini isn't a [censored]

--
le Vent a Dos, Davey Crockett
Six Day Site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

That's my point. We like Bettini so everybody is quiet about drugs. We
don't like Lance so it's drugs away! Seems a bit unfair.

Quoted message said:

Gary said:

Okay, why isn't there an outcry that not only Bettini but the whole
Italian squad MUST be on drugs because he won? Where are the guys who
can prove Bettini is on drugs because some Italian cousin once
disposed of a needle within 1,000 miles of Bettini? where are all the
"the whole peloton is on drugs" guys? Come on, guys? Is it that you
LIKE Bettini and therefore, are silent? You are sure showing your
anti-Lance bias by being so selective in your accusations now. You're
showing your true motivations. Come on, fellas. How about some Bettini
bashing!

Bettini isn't a [censored]

"Tuschinski" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gary said:

Okay, why isn't there an outcry that not only Bettini but the whole
Italian squad MUST be on drugs because he won? Where are the guys who
can prove Bettini is on drugs because some Italian cousin once
disposed
of a needle within 1,000 miles of Bettini? where are all the "the
whole
peloton is on drugs" guys? Come on, guys? Is it that you LIKE Bettini
and therefore, are silent? You are sure showing your anti-Lance bias
by
being so selective in your accusations now. You're showing your true
motivations. Come on, fellas. How about some Bettini bashing!

*BITES*

I assume Bettini is on the take as everyone else (including
Lance-baby). A difference are of course Lance actions against Bassons
and Simeoni. THAT is one of the main reasons why I (and many with me)
think Lance is a hypocrite and shows that he isn't interested in
cleaning his sport at all.

Bettini didn't attack those fighting for clean cycling, he just ignores
them. Lance did go into unfair, childish attacks. What does that show
us?

Actually, Cyclingnews reported duriung the TdF that Bettini supported
Simeoni after the incident with Armstrong. Nardello, on the other hand, did
not.
-Mike

"> Bettini didn't attack those fighting for clean cycling, he just ignores

Quoted message said:

them. Lance did go into unfair, childish attacks. What does that show
us?

Alzheimer's?

Gary said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Okay, why isn't there an outcry that not only Bettini but the whole
Italian squad MUST be on drugs because he won?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bettini isn't a [censored]

Gary said:

That's my point. We like Bettini so everybody is quiet about drugs. We
don't like Lance so it's drugs away! Seems a bit unfair.

Davey's post == gzip -9 of Tuschinski's post.

"Tuschinski" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gary said:

Okay, why isn't there an outcry that not only Bettini but the whole
Italian squad MUST be on drugs because he won? Where are the guys who
can prove Bettini is on drugs because some Italian cousin once
disposed
of a needle within 1,000 miles of Bettini? where are all the "the
whole
peloton is on drugs" guys? Come on, guys? Is it that you LIKE Bettini
and therefore, are silent? You are sure showing your anti-Lance bias
by
being so selective in your accusations now. You're showing your true
motivations. Come on, fellas. How about some Bettini bashing!

*BITES*

I assume Bettini is on the take as everyone else (including
Lance-baby). A difference are of course Lance actions against Bassons
and Simeoni. THAT is one of the main reasons why I (and many with me)
think Lance is a hypocrite and shows that he isn't interested in
cleaning his sport at all.

Bettini didn't attack those fighting for clean cycling, he just ignores
them. Lance did go into unfair, childish attacks. What does that show
us?

Nicely put!

Quoted message said:

From: Tuschinski

Quoted message said:

I assume Bettini is on the take as everyone else (including
Lance-baby). A difference are of course Lance actions against Bassons
and Simeoni. THAT is one of the main reasons why I (and many with me)
think Lance is a hypocrite and shows that he isn't interested in
cleaning his sport at all.

Bettini didn't attack those fighting for clean cycling, he just ignores
them. Lance did go into unfair, childish attacks. What does that show
us?

Bettini isn't in Walsh's crosshairs?

No one ever wrote an "expose" book about Bettini?

Bettini has never been the object of an official French investigation into
alleged doping?

Bettini has never undergone extended grilling by the press?

Bettini isn't and knows he never will be any sort of Patron?

What in the world is "unfair" about Lance's "attacks"? Or "childish"? How
naive, if you are thinking that the "law", or in this case, the "law" of Pound
and his ilk, serves *justice*? "Non-analytical positives"? Does this concept
not bother you just a little? How many others stayed away from the Olympics
because they are marked for destruction by an agency that does not require
proof in order to impose sanction?

Note that Pound defended Johnson and Rabagliati. Next book (?): "It Isn't About
the Drugs".

Look up the 1960 Summer Olympics medal list sometime ("swimming"😉, and track
Pound's tirades against USOC. It's a pretty simple deal. --Tom Paterson

Tom Paterson said:

>From: Tuschinski

Quoted message said:

I assume Bettini is on the take as everyone else (including
Lance-baby). A difference are of course Lance actions against Bassons
and Simeoni. THAT is one of the main reasons why I (and many with me)
think Lance is a hypocrite and shows that he isn't interested in
cleaning his sport at all.

Bettini didn't attack those fighting for clean cycling, he just ignores
them. Lance did go into unfair, childish attacks. What does that show
us?

Bettini isn't in Walsh's crosshairs?

No one ever wrote an "expose" book about Bettini?

Bettini has never been the object of an official French investigation into
alleged doping?

Bettini has never undergone extended grilling by the press?

Bettini isn't and knows he never will be any sort of Patron?

What in the world is "unfair" about Lance's "attacks"? Or "childish"? How
naive, if you are thinking that the "law", or in this case, the "law" of Pound
and his ilk, serves *justice*? "Non-analytical positives"? Does this concept
not bother you just a little? How many others stayed away from the Olympics
because they are marked for destruction by an agency that does not require
proof in order to impose sanction?

Note that Pound defended Johnson and Rabagliati. Next book (?): "It Isn't About
the Drugs".

Look up the 1960 Summer Olympics medal list sometime ("swimming"😉, and track
Pound's tirades against USOC. It's a pretty simple deal. --Tom Paterson

And where in your tirade do I find grounds to attack Bassons and Simeoni?

If Lance doesn't want to talk to the media, or is afraid of being framed I can understand that. But how do you fit in these attacks on persons who fight for their sport?

And to be honest... I am a cycling lover. I don't really care if they take or not. I think Lance is the best at the moment and deserves our deepest respect for that. But I do acknowledge that cycling has a huge doping problem.

Bassons and Simeoni aren't "heroes", nor are the others criminals. But I do think it is flat out wrong to make the career of these two impossible, as they seem to have put the future and health of cycling before their own interests. Simply put: I think Lance is doing them a big injustice and it substracts from his person. If he disagrees with them he could just ignore them, there was and is no reason for him to treat them unfair.

Quoted message said:

From: Tuschinski

Quoted message said:

And -where- in your tirade do I find grounds to attack Bassons and
Simeoni?

This is another problem: Ianswered a question, now I'm accused of a "tirade".

Does it ever stop? (Just a question).

Quoted message said:

If Lance doesn't want to talk to the media, or is afraid of being
framed

Lance talks to the media all the time and gives straight answers, which he gets
in trouble for (see above, "tirade"😉. He has also repeatedly been accused of
not (implied "ever"😉 giving straight answers, even after links are posted here
to these repeated direct answers ("I have never used performance-enhancing
substances). No, it never stops...

Afraid of being framed? He has good reason (see "French reporters"😉.

I can understand that. But how do you fit in these attacks on

Quoted message said:

persons who fight for their sport?

These persons might be "fighting for their sport". Also possible: they have cut
a deal with Pound to save their hides. Armstrong says Simeoni is lying. Where
is the truth?

Quoted message said:

But I do acknowledge that cycling has a huge
doping problem.

"Huge" is a manifestation of media pressure and cycling being used as an easy
target for those wanting to make their reputations and sell sports to the
highest bidder.

We've seen testimony here regarding "doping" by high school athletes and
parking lot crit riders. Long story made short, competitive sports will never
be "clean", no matter how high the pile of bodies. Meanwhile, nationality and
personality will figure into "guilt". Just don't call it "justice", or indeed,
"fighting for the sport", because Pound and Walsh are not fighting *for*
sports. Power/money lust, personal vendetta rule the day.
--Tom Paterson

Quoted post said:

= Tom Paterson]>From: Tuschinski

Quoted message said:

And -where- in your tirade do I find grounds to attack Bassons and
Simeoni?

This is another problem: Ianswered a question, now I'm accused of a "tirade".

Does it ever stop? (Just a question).

You didn't answer a single question, but went off to moan how unfairly lance is being treated.

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

If Lance doesn't want to talk to the media, or is afraid of being
framed

Lance talks to the media all the time and gives straight answers, which he gets
in trouble for (see above, "tirade"😉. He has also repeatedly been accused of
not (implied "ever"😉 giving straight answers, even after links are posted here
to these repeated direct answers ("I have never used performance-enhancing
substances). No, it never stops...

Oh yes. Virenque also states he has never taken drugs. Millar NEVER EVER took drugs in his life. Carl lewis was as clean as crystal. OOPS. So excuse if I take those statements with a a few ounces of salt.

Quoted post said:

Afraid of being framed? He has good reason (see "French reporters"😉.

Say as you might, but those taken in by the french and Italian police all were guilty (Oh , except Virenque...). So far NOONE got framed, instead I can not remember false accusations by the police. That Lance can be framed by the press is possible, yet it would be a stretch. (You will vehemently disagree)

Quoted post said:

I can understand that. But how do you fit in these attacks on

Quoted message said:

persons who fight for their sport?

These persons might be "fighting for their sport". Also possible: they have cut
a deal with Pound to save their hides. Armstrong says Simeoni is lying. Where
is the truth?

IF Simeoni lies, does the decison lie in court or in the behavior of Lance? You know the real answer don't you? Simeoni's supposed falsehood(Wich in any case was NEVER directed towards Lance!) will be thoroughly subjugated to court-investigation. And he won't be the only witness. So Ferrara (and NOT Lance!) will have nothing to worry about.

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

But I do acknowledge that cycling has a huge
doping problem.

"Huge" is a manifestation of media pressure and cycling being used as an easy
target for those wanting to make their reputations and sell sports to the
highest bidder.

MEA CULPA. I saw footage of needles raining out of hotel windows during a caribinieri raid. I saw PDM, Festina, Cofidis, Pantani. You think the problem is there because of the media says it is a problem?

Quoted post said:

We've seen testimony here regarding "doping" by high school athletes and
parking lot crit riders.

Ah yes. Pantani, Dufaux, Zulle, Millar (Virenque). Those are perhaps not among the very very best cyclists in the world?

Quoted post said:

Long story made short, competitive sports will never
be "clean", no matter how high the pile of bodies. Meanwhile, nationality and
personality will figure into "guilt". Just don't call it "justice", or indeed,
"fighting for the sport", because Pound and Walsh are not fighting *for*
sports. Power/money lust, personal vendetta rule the day.
--Tom Paterson

I start to think you haven't got a single clue who Bassons is. I am also stunned that you say this after what happened to Festina and after all the other horror stories wich have been verified.

Clean is one thing, but the horror stories of tapping of blood just to stay under 50 are not in the realm of acceptable. This is not taking a little magic pill, this is fundamentally changing your body on a stunning scale.

Cycling has a problem. Better said, the cyclists have a problem and I hope for their sakes that these dangerous, inhuman practices disappear.

Tuschinski said:

Pantani, Dufaux, Zulle, Millar (Virenque).

And the odd one out is..?

Quoted message said:

From: Tuschinski

Quoted message said:

You didn't answer a single question, but went off to moan how unfairly
lance is being treated.

I answered your question approx. five times-- examples of ways in which LA's
experience has been different from Bettini's. I never said "unfair", either.
This exposure comes with the territory. Most successful = most poked, prodded,
etc. Leave the false accusations (!!!!) out of this, please.

What you are seeing, perhaps, is a profound dislike of the Pound and Walsh
tactics, including the "join WADA or stay home" deal, but specifically the
"non-analytical positive". Disliked because it opens the door to the "political
positive". Pound does not like Americans, for instance. Walsh does not like
Armstrong because Armstrong wouldn't roll over and play dead (plus reportedly
being embarrassed by LA in front of his peers). So we get someone to say
something, invoke an "investigation", perhaps, and [censored]! out they go, branded
for life with no direct evidence of "drug" use (that would be a positive A&B
sample).

Quoted message said:

Oh yes. Virenque also states he has never taken drugs. Millar NEVER
EVER took drugs in his life. Carl lewis was as clean as crystal. OOPS.
So excuse if I take those statements with >a a few ounces of salt.

Drop the caps key long enough to keep ahold of the shaker when reading Walsh.
Also while reading Pound on the USOC. And Bessons, and Simeoni. Fair is fair,
right? Extend to all "jailhouse confessions" and informants who have something
to gain by making statements that serve the jailers' agendas. Remember all the
hundreds of rape and murder convictions overturned by DNA evidence, the
"ultimate positive", and extend that to the millions who have been unjustly
incarcerated for lesser crimes on the basis of sayso or false/mistaken witness
testimony.

Quoted message said:

So far NOONE got framed,
instead I can not remember false accusations by the police. That Lance
can be framed by the press is possible, yet it would be a stretch. (You
will vehemently disagree)

You don't know if anyone has been framed. Bugged telephone conversations were
used to exclude at least one rider from the TdF. And the actual substance of
the alleged conversation was... ?

Quoted message said:

IF Simeoni lies, does the decison lie in court or in the behavior of
Lance? You know the real answer don't >you?

More innuendo? No thanks. "Defending yourself is admitting guilt"? None of
that, either.

Quoted message said:

Simeoni's supposed
falsehood(Wich in any case was NEVER directed towards Lance!) will be
thoroughly subjugated to court-investigation. And he won't be the only
witness. So Ferrara (and NOT Lance!) will have nothing to worry about.

"Non-analytical positive" means everyone has something to worry about.

Quoted message said:

I saw footage of needles raining out of hotel windows during
a caribinieri raid. I saw PDM, Festina, Cofidis, Pantani. You think the
problem is there because of the media >says it is a problem?

What was in the needles? All of them "dirty"? Do you want to go talk to the
Caribinieri for having a "suspicious" object in your room, or would you rather
ditch it and let someone else take the heat? This "if you didn't do anything
you don't have anything to worry about" stuff is [censored]. Go hire a lawyer for an
overnighter down at the police station, and tell me that money doesn't count
for anything in your life.

I know there is a problem. I think the media makes it much, much worse. I think
Pound and Walsh are making it much, much worse, while they make money and
reputation for being "tough on drugs".

[doping by the unknowns in amateur sports]

Quoted message said:

Ah yes. Pantani, Dufaux, Zulle, Millar (Virenque). Those are perhaps
not among the very very best cyclists in >the world?

My point is that "taking advantage" is a universal temptation, even when
little/no money is involved, or the goal is very iffy (pro career, college
scholarship). I didn't say anything about those "names".

Quoted message said:

I start to think you haven't got a single >clue who Bassons is.

That's your willful interpretation, isn't it?

Quoted message said:

but the horror stories of tapping of blood just to
stay under 50 are not in the realm of >acceptable.

I agree with that, and you'll never see anything from me in contradiction. The
point is, what are you going to do about it? Believe anyone who "testifies" if
they seem to be "on your side"?

Quoted message said:

Cycling has a problem. Better said, the cyclists have a problem and I
hope for their sakes that these >dangerous, inhuman practices disappear.

The problem is unsolvable. Sport will never be "clean". One consideration for
enforcement is "how high should we pile the bodies?" and, along with that,
"whose bodies should these be?", as related to those who, because of past
success, have more money for the best technology.

The testers' first responsibility is fairness. Next, to come up with tests that
catch cheaters. The police have played a successful role, since some of the
time they did find evidence of possession of banned substances (ignoring the
very real possibility of planted evidence). "Non-analytical positives" are
oversteppings of power and money lust.

After all this folderol, the memory of Virenque's greeting (loudest cheers of
the day, by a chunk) at the Prologue starthouse in Luxembourg, '02, is the best
barometer of "justice" IMO. --TP

"Tuschinski" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Paterson said:

Quoted message said:

From: Tuschinski

Quoted message said:

And -where- in your tirade do I find grounds to attack Bassons and
Simeoni?

This is another problem: Ianswered a question, now I'm accused of a
"tirade".

Does it ever stop? (Just a question).

You didn't answer a single question, but went off to moan how unfairly
lance is being treated.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If Lance doesn't want to talk to the media, or is afraid of being
framed

Lance talks to the media all the time and gives straight answers, which
he gets
in trouble for (see above, "tirade"😉. He has also repeatedly been
accused of
not (implied "ever"😉 giving straight answers, even after links are
posted here
to these repeated direct answers ("I have never used
performance-enhancing
substances). No, it never stops...

Oh yes. Virenque also states he has never taken drugs. Millar NEVER
EVER took drugs in his life. Carl lewis was as clean as crystal. OOPS.
So excuse if I take those statements with a a few ounces of salt.

Quoted message said:

Afraid of being framed? He has good reason (see "French reporters"😉.

Say as you might, but those taken in by the french and Italian police
all were guilty (Oh , except Virenque...). So far NOONE got framed,
instead I can not remember false accusations by the police. That Lance
can be framed by the press is possible, yet it would be a stretch. (You
will vehemently disagree)

Quoted message said:

I can understand that. But how do you fit in these attacks on

Quoted message said:

persons who fight for their sport?

These persons might be "fighting for their sport". Also possible: they
have cut
a deal with Pound to save their hides. Armstrong says Simeoni is lying.
Where
is the truth?

IF Simeoni lies, does the decison lie in court or in the behavior of
Lance? You know the real answer don't you? Simeoni's supposed
falsehood(Wich in any case was NEVER directed towards Lance!) will be
thoroughly subjugated to court-investigation. And he won't be the only
witness. So Ferrara (and NOT Lance!) will have nothing to worry about.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But I do acknowledge that cycling has a huge
doping problem.

"Huge" is a manifestation of media pressure and cycling being used as
an easy
target for those wanting to make their reputations and sell sports to
the
highest bidder.

MEA CULPA. I saw footage of needles raining out of hotel windows during
a caribinieri raid. I saw PDM, Festina, Cofidis, Pantani. You think the
problem is there because of the media says it is a problem?

Quoted message said:

We've seen testimony here regarding "doping" by high school athletes
and
parking lot crit riders.

Ah yes. Pantani, Dufaux, Zulle, Millar (Virenque). Those are perhaps
not among the very very best cyclists in the world?

Quoted message said:

Long story made short, competitive sports will never
be "clean", no matter how high the pile of bodies. Meanwhile,
nationality and
personality will figure into "guilt". Just don't call it "justice", or
indeed,
"fighting for the sport", because Pound and Walsh are not fighting
*for*
sports. Power/money lust, personal vendetta rule the day.
--Tom Paterson

I start to think you haven't got a single clue who Bassons is. I am
also stunned that you say this after what happened to Festina and after
all the other horror stories wich have been verified.

Clean is one thing, but the horror stories of tapping of blood just to
stay under 50 are not in the realm of acceptable. This is not taking a
little magic pill, this is fundamentally changing your body on a
stunning scale.

Cycling has a problem. Better said, the cyclists have a problem and I
hope for their sakes that these dangerous, inhuman practices disappear.

--
Tuschinski

You're wasting your time trying to reason with T.P. Better that you look
through the DSM-IV-TR before posting in response again.

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:03:09 -0500, Gary <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Okay, why isn't there an outcry that not only Bettini but the whole
Italian squad MUST be on drugs because he won?

Not only that, did you notice how he zipped up his shirt before he
crossed the finish line, just like Lance. That's a sure sign he's on
drugs.

Jack Hollis said:

Not only that, did you notice how he zipped up his shirt before he
crossed the finish line, just like Lance. That's a sure sign he's on
drugs.

And look at his hair. I bet Franco Pellizotti never dopes!

MJ;

--
..signature necesse est

Tom Paterson said:

Armstrong says Simeoni is lying. Where
is the truth?

but how can lance know if simeoni is lying or not? by accusing him of
lying without knowing if he is or not, lance is doing the same thing to
simeoni that lance thinks simeoni is doing to ferrari (sp?)- making
unjust accusations against him.

i don't want to argue about all this. maybe lance has a way to be 100%
positive that it's all a lie and i'm just unaware of that side of the
story. but i haven't figured out a good way besides faith in a friend,
which does count for something, but not 100% in my book.

heather

Quoted message said:

From: "B. Lafferty", whose killfile has been mighty leaky of late:

Quoted message said:

You're wasting your time trying to reason with T.P. Better that you look
through the DSM-IV-TR before posting in >response again.

Hey, it's the Insanity Offense! A first? <g>

What does the DSM-IV-TR say about growing up, and learning how to handle people
disagreeing with you in an adult manner?

What does DSM etc. say about forming hatreds for people you don't know
personally (or have ever met)?

Still waiting for the killer passages from the Walsh book you alluded to. Or,
of course, the positive A&B sample, proof of possession, uncoerced confession.
That instead of Walsh-like emotionally motivated smear tactics, as above.

Thanks, I knew you'd understand. --TP