Best shoes for trail racing?

Garth said:

I have been searching and found very little direct advice on what are the best shoes for
trail racing.

Probably because there isn't a "best" shoe for trail racing. It depends on the terrain you're
running - rocks, dirt, mud, snow, ice, roots, etc
- AND most importantly your foot shape and biomechanical needs.

I would really appreciate any advice from

Quoted message said:

people with practical trail racing experience as to what shoes they wear.

I have been trail running, and road racing, for several years -- now I'm getting ready to run my
first trail race. Never seen the course but it is advertised as having hills, roots, rocks, and
stream crossings. It is a 15 mile race.

Is there a reason you would expect a trail "race" to have different needs from a trail "run" - other
than effort - at least if you've trained on similar terrain? If you've done specific training
(hills, roots, rocks, streams) for your race, I would think you'd already have a good idea. If you
have stream crossings, it's good to have a drainable shoe - which many trail shoes are not.

If you post the name of the race, someone here may have done it and could provide more info.

Quoted message said:

I have been using ASICS trabacos (sp?) but even my own experience tells me these are no better
than my normal road shoes, they are quite heavy, and I frequently twist my ankles in them.

If your road shoes do better on trails than your trail shoes, then wear your road shoes. I wouldn't
tolerate shoes that result in frequent ankle twisting. Or is this a function of the trail and that
happens in your road shoes also? Is it the shoes or do you need ankle strengthening exercises?

So some of the "anti trail shoe" posts

Quoted message said:

I found in the archives make sense to me.

I'm not suggesting this at present for this race (although you didn't say how far away it was), but
you might look at some newer models - *IF* you feel a need for a different trail shoe. Many people
use their road shoes for everything. Yes, many of the older model trail shoes may be the proverbial
2x4. Some newer models, like the Brooks Trespass, are lighter and much more flexible - at least
compared with my Saucony Grid Stabils (road) and other trail shoes I tried on. That said I noticed
the Trabuco appears slightly lighter than the Trespass (RRS weights). I switched because of the fit
and biomechanics (recommended by my PT for some foot issues I have). Having better trail
characteristics was a bonus since I could feel rocks through the GS - and they definitely have
better traction than my GS and some hiking boots.

I'm not necessarily recommending these, I'm just suggesting that it depends what you're comparing as
to how one perceives trail vs road shoes.

Quoted message said:

My choices seem to be

What have you trained in when trail running? That's what I'd go with, esp. if race is in the
near future.

1) Use regular road shoes 2) Use my racing flats, but

Quoted message said:

don't look to me like they would well on slippery stuff 3) Go out and buy XC spikes, but not sure
those would do on rocks and across the parking lot
4) Go out and buy "spikeless" XC shoes <-- seems like the best choice?

I'm not familiar with xc shoes although I think I have read something about them being readily
drainable, which would be an asset for stream crossings. But the big question is do you have time to
train in them? Is this a one time event or will you be doing more like this in the future to make it
worth an investment in money and time training? - the proverbial do nothing new on race day. (The
flip side is that Melissa Moon won the women's World Mountain Racing Trophy this year in a pair of
borrowed, prototype shoes since her racing flats didn't have needed traction - and that was mostly
on easy dirt road, albeit snow covered.)

FWIW, I don't have the trail running experience like some people here do since I've only been
running trails about 1.5 yrs and the couple races (including duathlon) I've done have had easy
footing. (I'm in field much of summer so seldom get to do races.) However, I have been seeking out
various types of terrain to train on similar to races I'm planning.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

There are a couple of "good" trail racing shoes out there, however, you have to go to the UK to
get them. Look under "Fell Shoes" Walsh shoes are a good one also Adidas make a good one,
called the Swoop

Good Luck

"Garth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been searching and found very little direct advice on what are the best shoes for trail
racing. I would really appreciate any advice from people with practical trail racing experience as
to what shoes they wear.

I have been trail running, and road racing, for several years -- now I'm getting ready to run my
first trail race. Never seen the course but it is advertised as having hills, roots, rocks, and
stream crossings. It is a

15

Quoted message said:

mile race.

I have been using ASICS trabacos (sp?) but even my own experience tells me these are no better
than my normal road shoes, they are quite heavy, and I frequently twist my ankles in them. So some
of the "anti trail shoe"

posts

Quoted message said:

I found in the archives make sense to me.

My choices seem to be 1) Use regular road shoes 2) Use my racing flats,

but

Quoted message said:

don't look to me like they would well on slippery stuff 3) Go out and buy XC spikes, but not sure
those would do on rocks and across the parking lot
4) Go out and buy "spikeless" XC shoes <-- seems like the best choice?

As I said, I would love to hear from any trail racers as to what you have tried and learned on
this topic.

Many thanks, -Garth

Garth said:

I have been searching and found very little direct advice on what are the best shoes for trail
racing. I would really appreciate any advice from people with practical trail racing experience as
to what shoes they wear.

I have been trail running, and road racing, for several years -- now I'm getting ready to run my
first trail race. Never seen the course but it is advertised as having hills, roots, rocks, and
stream crossings. It is a 15 mile race.

I have been using ASICS trabacos (sp?) but even my own experience tells me these are no better
than my normal road shoes, they are quite heavy, and I frequently twist my ankles in them. So some
of the "anti trail shoe" posts I found in the archives make sense to me.

My choices seem to be 1) Use regular road shoes 2) Use my racing flats, but don't look to me like
they would well on slippery stuff 3) Go out and buy XC spikes, but not sure those would do on
rocks and across the parking lot
4) Go out and buy "spikeless" XC shoes <-- seems like the best choice?

As I said, I would love to hear from any trail racers as to what you have tried and learned on
this topic.

Many thanks, -Garth

You need some Walsh fell running shoes - walshsports.comrunning.aspOpen ↗ but you'll probably
need to be in the UK to get them. I've just ordered a pair myself.

--
Brian Wakem

Garth said:

I have been searching and found very little direct advice on what are the best shoes for trail
racing. I would really appreciate any advice from people with practical trail racing experience as
to what shoes they wear.

Whichever ones are best for your style of running.

Quoted message said:

I have been trail running, and road racing, for several years --

If this were true, then you should know what shoe is best for you. The same brand you are now
wearing, but in a trail shoe. Just avoid nike, they suck.

now I'm

Having got a pair of Walsh's shoes myself I would be cautious in recommending them.

Firstly, they seem to be designed for people with narrow feet so if one's feet are wide at all, they
may not feel comfortable.

Secondly, they have no cushioning and after a while they seem to be boring holes in the bottom of
one's feet. I suppose they are OK up to about 15 miles. (Some people wear them with removable
cushion insoles and say they are fine).

Thirdly, they are excellent on soft clay but not so good on hard surfaces and positively skate on
slippery hard surfaces such as wet chalk.

So one has to know the conditions. If I was the guy I would stick to the devil I know.

In article <[email hidden]>, Brian Wakem <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Garth said:

I have been searching and found very little direct advice on what are the best shoes for trail
racing. I would really appreciate any advice from people with practical trail racing experience
as to what shoes they wear.

I have been trail running, and road racing, for several years -- now I'm getting ready to run my
first trail race. Never seen the course but it is advertised as having hills, roots, rocks, and
stream crossings. It is a 15 mile race.

I have been using ASICS trabacos (sp?) but even my own experience tells me these are no better
than my normal road shoes, they are quite heavy, and I frequently twist my ankles in them. So
some of the "anti trail shoe" posts I found in the archives make sense to me.

My choices seem to be 1) Use regular road shoes 2) Use my racing flats, but don't look to me like
they would well on slippery stuff 3) Go out and buy XC spikes, but not sure those would do on
rocks and across the parking lot
4) Go out and buy "spikeless" XC shoes <-- seems like the best choice?

As I said, I would love to hear from any trail racers as to what you have tried and learned on
this topic.

Many thanks, -Garth

You need some Walsh fell running shoes - walshsports.comrunning.aspOpen ↗ but you'll probably
need to be in the UK to get them. I've just ordered a pair myself.

--
Ken

"TM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have been trail running, and road racing, for several years --

If this were true, then you should know what shoe is best for you. The same brand you are now
wearing, but in a trail shoe. Just avoid nike, they suck.

Actually, I can assure you this is true and yet I do *not* know what shoe is best for me ;-) In
fact, over the last few years, most of my training has been done on trails even though all of my
racing is on roads. I have never worried all that much about shoes because I haven't had injuries
and I never understood whether I over or under pronated or needed cushioning, motion control,
stability, or what-have-you. I just haven't paid attention to it. I have used ASICS for the last 15
years and have not experimented with other brands. So that is why I bought the trabacos and have
been through two pairs. The current pair is completely worn out and the sole is coming apart so I
need to get something, and just wondered what other people are using. I am pretty sure now that I
finally think about it that I do not like the trabacos.

I guess my confusion here is that when I started to think about getting a new pair of shoes for
trail running/racing, I realized that, unlike for road running, I am not even sure of the basic
*type* of shoes I should be looking at. And that is where I was hoping to get some advice. Maybe the
final answer I'm going to get is that different people use all kinds of different shoes and I would
just have to start trying different things myself(?)

Now, what if I had said all my road shoes were Nike? ;-)

I appreciate the responses pointing to the "fell running" shoes, those look promising. I also
appreciate Dot's point in that I haven't actually looked at the current crop of trail running shoes,
having sort of assumed they were all heavy 2x4s like my current pair.

Thanks for the help, -Garth

Garth said:

Actually, I can assure you this is true and yet I do *not* know what shoe is best for me ;-) In
fact, over the last few years, most of my training has been done on trails even though all of my
racing is on roads. I have never worried all that much about shoes because I haven't had injuries
and I never understood whether I over or under pronated or needed cushioning, motion control,
stability, or what-have-you. I just haven't paid attention to it. I have used ASICS for the last 15
years and have not experimented with other brands. So that is why I bought the trabacos and have
been through two pairs. The current pair is completely worn out and the sole is coming apart so I
need to get something, and just wondered what other people are using. I am pretty sure now that I
finally think about it that I do not like the trabacos.

Yes, but you just said you didn't know which shoe was best for you, yet have run in Asics for 15
years (I'm in love) with no problem, obviously Asics is the shoe for you. I'm interested how you
destroyed those shoes, the mesh in my uppers literally disintegrates before the bottoms wear out.

Quoted message said:

I guess my confusion here is that when I started to think about getting a new pair of shoes for
trail running/racing, I realized that, unlike for road running, I am not even sure of the basic
*type* of shoes I should be looking at. And that is where I was hoping to get some advice. Maybe
the final answer I'm going to get is that different people use all kinds of different shoes and I
would just have to start trying different things myself(?)

Now, what if I had said all my road shoes were Nike? ;-)

I appreciate the responses pointing to the "fell running" shoes, those look promising. I also
appreciate Dot's point in that I haven't actually looked at the current crop of trail running
shoes, having sort of assumed they were all heavy 2x4s like my current pair.

Thanks for the help, -Garth

Garth said:

I guess my confusion here is that when I started to think about getting a new pair of shoes for
trail running/racing, I realized that, unlike for road running, I am not even sure of the basic
*type* of shoes I should be looking at. And that is where I was hoping to get some advice. Maybe
the final answer I'm going to get is that different people use all kinds of different shoes and I
would just have to start trying different things myself(?)

You hit the nail on the head above. I send a fair amount of time on trails and have never bought
a pair of "trail" shoes. I happen to train in the Asics 20N0's and race in the same shoe. I
also, as Dot pointed out, know what my trails are like in degree of difficulty so I get no
surprises on race day.

Quoted message said:

Now, what if I had said all my road shoes were Nike? ;-)

Some folks would use bad words. 🙂

Quoted message said:

I appreciate the responses pointing to the "fell running" shoes, those look promising. I also
appreciate Dot's point in that I haven't actually looked at the current crop of trail running
shoes, having sort of assumed they were all heavy 2x4s like my current pair.

Even those shoes labeled "trail" shoes come in every conceivable flavor you can think of. Some are
nothing but road shoes in a dark color while others would make a 2X4 fell like a cushioned shoe.
There are such a wide variety of trail conditions that you may need a variety of shoes.

Now, what race was that?

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Now, what race was that?

Thanks for the comments Doug. The race is the "San Lee Epic" on Dec. 7th in Sanford North Carolina.
I suspect the course is mainly Mountain Bike single track, but I've never been there and, unless I
make a special trip, will not be able to see it before race day.

Speaking of your 20N0's, I went for a long yesterday to a local place with some single track trails
in a pair of 2060's as an experiement. They worked fine but I did notice I could feel I could feel
small rocks a lot more than with my trail shoes.

Doug Freese said:

Even those shoes labeled "trail" shoes come in every conceivable flavor you can think of. Some are
nothing but road shoes in a dark color while others would make a 2X4 fell like a cushioned shoe.
There are such a wide variety of trail conditions that you may need a variety of shoes.

While I don't "race" <G> I haven't found a trail shoe that is better (for me) than my training
shoes. As Doug mentioned, many of the ones I've tried on had way to much, er, substance. I've also
found that my regular trainers turn a dark color after a few trail runs.

Layne

-------------------------------------------------------
The rec.running report archives may be found at kinder.cis.unf.edurec.runningOpen ↗

Garth said:

Thanks for the comments Doug. The race is the "San Lee Epic" on Dec. 7th in Sanford North
Carolina. I suspect the course is mainly Mountain Bike single track, but I've never been there
and, unless I make a special trip, will not be able to see it before race day.

Web page says: COURSE: A true gem of a course, all trail run inside San Lee Park. The trail is a 5
mile loop consisting of rocks, hills, roots, creek crossings, etc… This is a very technical run and
will require lots of concentration. The 10 mile race will be 2 laps, and the 15 mile race will
consist of 3 laps. Be Prepared for Anything.

Sounds like fun 🙂

Quoted message said:

Speaking of your 20N0's, I went for a long yesterday to a local place with some single track
trails in a pair of 2060's as an experiement. They worked fine but I did notice I could feel I
could feel small rocks a lot more than with my trail shoes.

Since the race is a 5 mile loop which allows you can see which shoe works best. You can always
change shoes after 5 miles.

Watch out, these races will get into you soul and the next thing you know you will be looking for
longer and longer races. 🙂

Good luck!!!

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Ken said:

Having got a pair of Walsh's shoes myself I would be cautious in recommending them.

Firstly, they seem to be designed for people with narrow feet so if one's feet are wide at all,
they may not feel comfortable.

Ken, Thanks for this heads up. I'll know not to go this direction when I find some trails that my
current shoes don't work on. I have wide feet and lots of problems getting a decent fit.

Quoted message said:

So one has to know the conditions. If I was the guy I would stick to the devil I know.

Sounds like good advice 🙂

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Garth said:

Speaking of your 20N0's, I went for a long yesterday to a local place with some single track
trails in a pair of 2060's as an experiement. They worked fine but I did notice I could feel I
could feel small rocks a lot more than with my trail shoes.

If the Walsh don't work for you, when you're looking around, something you might consider is
something like the Trespass 2. It has a protection plate in the forefoot, BUT supposedly did not
loose any of it's flexibility from what I've heard from a couple runners that have used them (no 1st
hand experience yet). Some of the 2x4's have the plates also.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

COURSE: A true gem of a course, all trail run inside San Lee Park. The trail is a 5 mile loop
consisting of rocks, hills, roots, creek crossings, etc… This is a very technical run and will
require lots of concentration. The 10 mile race will be 2 laps, and the 15 mile race will consist
of 3 laps. Be Prepared for Anything.

At first thought it would appear that orienteering shoes wouldn´t be a poor choice, they´re good for
ankles and provide grip and protection.

The leading brands are Jalas (Finnish) and Silva (Swedish); jalas.com4458.htmlOpen ↗
shows a variety of models.

OTOH orienteering is such a tiny sport in N.A. and you are probably not likely to find any in a
store near you.

Have you seen any on the trail running circuit?

Lustig

PS jalas.comnews3.htmlOpen ↗ tells a story about an unusual choice of marathon footwear.

<snip> I am heavy (200 lb) and have wide feet. I've found Saucony's cheapest trail model (the
Approach) suits me fine. It grips well on all surfaces and is fairly waterproof - I actually ran
through a shallow stream the first time out with a new pair without getitng my feet wet. It's
supportive enough on the steep downhills of the Jog Shop Jog and cushioned enough to cope with a
road marathon (I ran my last 'thon in a well-used pair of Saucony Approach rather than the Visions
I'd bought four weeks previously with a view to that race). However, it seems from the US Saucony
site that the Approach has been discontinued (I thought I'd better just check). It is still on
saucony.co.ukapproach.htmOpen ↗, though, where Saucony says "Best selling off road
shoe offering lightweight flexibility with outstanding traction from a very aggressive outsole. For
the neutral runner, this shoe provides all they could need in a top-value off-road shoe in a
lightweight package with amazing grip" - and for once I agree with every word. Jonathan

Anders Lustig said:

OTOH orienteering is such a tiny sport in N.A. and you are probably not likely to find any in a
store near you.

Have you seen any on the trail running circuit?

Let's have some fun. What do you think is specific to an orienteering shoe that is not in the
"trail" shoe line? IMO trail, fell, orienteering are simply external marketing terms with geography,
what side of the pond, in mind.

Orienteering was some years ago an active sport. One of the cofounders of Ultra Running magazine,
Peter Gagarin, was on the Wheaties box for this sport. Since the topic does not show up on the Ultra
forum nor the magazine I would assume it's close to dead in N.A.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Doug Freese said:

Anders Lustig said:

OTOH orienteering is such a tiny sport in N.A. and you are probably not likely to find any in a
store near you. Have you seen any on the trail running circuit?

Let's have some fun. What do you think is specific to an orienteering shoe that is not in the
"trail" shoe line? IMO trail, fell, orienteering are simply external marketing terms with
geography, what side of the pond, in mind.

Orienteering was some years ago an active sport. One of the cofounders of Ultra Running magazine,
Peter Gagarin, was on the Wheaties box for this sport. Since the topic does not show up on the
Ultra forum nor the magazine I would assume it's close to dead in N.A.

Duh, every Wed night in Anchorage area - May through early September. Stops about the time the Tues
night xc series starts 😉

The ultra list does have several mentions of orienteering (72 in digest in last 2 years, possibly a
few quoted dups, but the dates suggest at least half are unique) and rogaine (=ultra orienteering,
several 24-hr events) (24 in last 2 years - didn't check all, but they all seemed to be events, not
the ahhh, product). No, it isn't mentioned as much as food and fuel. I needed to do a search only to
quantify the number, since I remembered several mentions of rogaine. (OTOH, all searches for
"rogaine" on the RW forum turned up the product). Like this group, I think the posters tend to
discuss more on mainstream topics where there's more people to discuss it. However, I believe one of
the main posters may be from an orienteering-oriented country originally. Just because snowshoe
racing is seldom mentioned on the list or here doesn't mean it's dead 😉

us.orienteering.orgus.orienteering.orgOpen ↗

Orienteering as a skill is part of adventure racing, which is probably bigger or more visible, at
least in US.

Granted, many US people are probably more into geocaching, which may not require as much thought
processing, although I don't know what clues are provided or if it's just lat/long.

But orienteering is far from dead - but not as large as other side of little pond. I think we have
at least as many orienteering events as trail races (esp. if exclude mountain races) in the
southcentral AK area. They include running, skiing, mt biking, mountain, and dog.

But I'm curious as to Anders' and others' answers regarding the shoes since I'm always open to
new ideas.

The local, hardcore orienteers *do* appear to wear different shoes than I've seen in local stores,
but I don't get out much. They definitely wear different clothing - appearing to have
catch-resistant surfaces to reduce snags - and a little more, ahh, colorful. But I've only been to
one event and I was having a horrible time with stability in my Saucony's going across the hay
fields (early spring so didn't have much growth yet).

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

He got rome of lots of aces of grass. . t lot of domestic animals . old folks say it was the
chickens. and the racoons are hungry. I don't think so. this racoons was smiling too point of
laughter. sniffing away. I mean it only been a day or 22 hours. so why on way back from 24 hour
store racoons down road again smiling... So a note to self. diesel gas not work in regal truck/car/
if suck gas make sure right gas. or car/truck not work. if happen open carb and pour little at time
of good gas. and towel dry. suck out all diesel and put in car/truck gas from other suck. put in
good suck gallon gas. then keep putting in open carb till burn all diesel out. smoke under truck/car
alto till gone. 30 minutes.... might has to keep peddle down at end to keep car/truck going then
back to Normal. get more not diesel gas. 2nd note take long time to suck. must work on vo2. try not
to swallow.....coo coo nest...... So now back to racoon. Now lets talk of 19 dogs who chaise you
down . the ones that you lose the bike race, dogs are really fast anyways strest out..... because of
no cans 10 cents on roads anywhere. Thanksgiving time is to give to turkey and nfl football and
family.( costruction people ripping gravel pit for sand and other stuff too.) understand here is
400.00 or 4 years in jail for faulse police report. so well do like job no get job still. and still
not 1 cent help in over a year. hell took over a year with no help at all butt od people..... In
mail a year and 1 week later. Mi works wanted ths form last year from x boss. who still talks [censored]
of me in a way that well . what els is nw. there crooks...... now were was I oh yes sorry cat in
nap..... too get a
1/4 tax report in and if I want to I can try for a basic year. geee I be dead by time I get any
help. I do on own. I don't need you or money. keep it........ So maybe it was the 20 bags of deer
parts by horse barn. No how about the green tarp that was cover of boat. n boat has a new boat
tarp . store rent on power line... green smelling bag of dead deer at by corn field other side of
horse barn smell like bad kill deer... and 2 baby deer.dead. and no bones. smell bad . butcher on
green tarp. So maybe 20 bags of deer parts are all construction bags. Who use construction bags.
Found a bag of all mexican beer in one. 4.80 total. in a year time I have never found construction
bags. allway regular size and little white ones or kitchen size..... now 10 cent cansbottles
plastic here in Michigan.... this store not take them I took to other store. oh good.
2.80 then. who else. at other store. some mexican bottles. took back to this store by horse barn oh
good. 80 cents. were else. construction bags. Oh yes brick guys. no patio guys. The guy who do
patios and fancy blocks for landscape. lots of bags. wait all bags are full of deer parts. Why 19
dog run me down and 3 go for same foot. Could be all [censored] step on when push mower cut lawn from
neuter dog. last time for here. winter snow be here soon yes... sorry cat again.... old people
say it was chickens. I don't know racoons seems to think it is funny. I would say it was me, my
foot. no... butt I was not at log big branch drag in road this a.m. at second racoons funny
smell. Wait I know.old green tarp boat on power line between two roads of racoons and deer parts.
and log big branch with saw cut drag on road of funny racoons sniff is from a lake in gravel pit.
only funny to racoons is fun of pack of 40 when they wash and play with food at water line. why
to sniff and funny. they use the power line two 2 gravel pits to kill and steel....... and get
off at lake.... and pick up 10 cent cans on road. sounds dangerus....... From lake some congest
off and step on...... not a day for me. shoes tell alto.I look at road counter only there less
then 22 hours. road counter gonenow... happy trail green tarp go..... they must want the new
trailer boat ren store on power line arewa green tarp stolden new tarp on boat. yes. That man too
old . can't walk on black op. Ho can he kill deers. baby no less. he is rich and out of shape. no
f ing way...... house guy to take blaim of baby deer. n f ing way..... construction padio
landscapr rock guys do yes. kill and steel. what is in gravel pit lake. or did he just jack
off........ how many deer do they kill on taken green tarp? funny paper here full of poachers.
wonder if cement people steel a little fromgravel pits and kill deer. maybe maybe not. shoes tell
alto. and gas smell and kill heli people in war because they fly and run out of gas. very
strange. today good day. Happy 2003 thanks given all. I am a hobo still and live off of picking
up 10 cent cans. I put in a zillion aplication for work and try to get help fom gov and denifde.
I guest red tape on x boss. he forgot to mail it......I don't need you and keep your money. I be
dead if I ever need your help...Butt I am sure you well bill me. sorry bill me. this is a god
food day a parrty soon. Hope all is good in lake. I not file a report because well info and truth
is timeing and costing. and tell you. I know if I am ight or wrong. I wel be the one wo step in
all the [censored] and b the one to get blaimed. Why it is the 20 east century ass hole. Watch wat you
step on... somebody might be watching you. and I don't mean the rich ass espn guy who says He can
read your brain. he can. and again I have not got 1 cent or any help in any way from them billion
dollor a year know it all. in fact they [censored] on me....

Just the first few paragraphs had the word "suck" in it so many times, I had to go throw-one just to
read on. However it's plain the poor guy has no family, no money or job, and is crying for
attention. So, I decided the decent thing would be for me to at least take the time to show I cared,
and read his post. So I immediately stopped reading.

(Tom Wheeler) said:

He got rome of lots of aces of grass. . t lot of domestic animals . old folks say it was the
chickens. and the racoons are hungry. I don't think so. this racoons was smiling too point of
laughter. sniffing away. I mean it only been a day or 22 hours. so why on way back from 24 hour
store racoons down road again smiling... So a note to self. diesel gas not work in regal
truck/car/ if suck gas make sure right gas. or car/truck not work. if happen open carb and pour
little at time of good gas. and towel dry. suck out all diesel and put in car/truck gas from
other suck. put in good suck gallon gas. then keep putting in open carb till burn all diesel
out. smoke under truck/car alto till gone. 30 minutes.... might has to keep peddle down at end
to keep car/truck going then back to Normal. get more not diesel gas. 2nd note take long time
to suck. must work on vo2. try not to swallow.....coo coo nest...... So now back to racoon. Now
lets talk of 19 dogs who chaise you down . the ones that you lose the bike race, dogs are
really fast anyways strest out..... because of no cans 10 cents on roads anywhere. Thanksgiving
time is to give to turkey and nfl football and family.( costruction people ripping gravel pit
for sand and other stuff too.) understand here is 400.00 or 4 years in jail for faulse police
report. so well do like job no get job still. and still not 1 cent help in over a year. hell
took over a year with no help at all butt od people..... In mail a year and 1 week later. Mi
works wanted ths form last year from x boss. who still talks [censored] of me in a way that well .
what els is nw. there crooks...... now were was I oh yes sorry cat in nap..... too get a
1/4 tax report in and if I want to I can try for a basic year. geee I be dead by time I get any
help. I do on own. I don't need you or money. keep it........ So maybe it was the 20 bags of deer
parts by horse barn. No how about the green tarp that was cover of boat. n boat has a new boat
tarp . store rent on power line... green smelling bag of dead deer at by corn field other side of
horse barn smell like bad kill deer... and 2 baby deer.dead. and no bones. smell bad . butcher on
green tarp. So maybe 20 bags of deer parts are all construction bags. Who use construction bags.
Found a bag of all mexican beer in one. 4.80 total. in a year time I have never found
construction bags. allway regular size and little white ones or kitchen size..... now 10 cent
cansbottles plastic here in Michigan.... this store not take them I took to other store. oh good.
4.80 then. who else. at other store. some mexican bottles. took back to this store by horse barn oh
good. 80 cents. were else. construction bags. Oh yes brick guys. no patio guys. The guy who do
patios and fancy blocks for landscape. lots of bags. wait all bags are full of deer parts. Why 19
dog run me down and 3 go for same foot. Could be all [censored] step on when push mower cut lawn from
neuter dog. last time for here. winter snow be here soon yes... sorry cat again.... old people
say it was chickens. I don't know racoons seems to think it is funny. I would say it was me, my
foot. no... butt I was not at log big branch drag in road this a.m. at second racoons funny
smell. Wait I know.old green tarp boat on power line between two roads of racoons and deer parts.
and log big branch with saw cut drag on road of funny racoons sniff is from a lake in gravel pit.
only funny to racoons is fun of pack of 40 when they wash and play with food at water line. why
to sniff and funny. they use the power line two 2 gravel pits to kill and steel....... and get
off at lake.... and pick up 10 cent cans on road. sounds dangerus....... From lake some congest
off and step on...... not a day for me. shoes tell alto.I look at road counter only there less
then 22 hours. road counter gonenow... happy trail green tarp go..... they must want the new
trailer boat ren store on power line arewa green tarp stolden new tarp on boat. yes. That man too
old . can't walk on black op. Ho can he kill deers. baby no less. he is rich and out of shape. no
f ing way...... house guy to take blaim of baby deer. n f ing way..... construction padio
landscapr rock guys do yes. kill and steel. what is in gravel pit lake. or did he just jack
off........ how many deer do they kill on taken green tarp? funny paper here full of poachers.
wonder if cement people steel a little fromgravel pits and kill deer. maybe maybe not. shoes tell
alto. and gas smell and kill heli people in war because they fly and run out of gas. very
strange. today good day. Happy 2003 thanks given all. I am a hobo still and live off of picking
up 10 cent cans. I put in a zillion aplication for work and try to get help fom gov and denifde.
I guest red tape on x boss. he forgot to mail it......I don't need you and keep your money. I be
dead if I ever need your help...Butt I am sure you well bill me. sorry bill me. this is a god
food day a parrty soon. Hope all is good in lake. I not file a report because well info and truth
is timeing and costing. and tell you. I know if I am ight or wrong. I wel be the one wo step in
all the [censored] and b the one to get blaimed. Why it is the 20 east century ass hole. Watch wat you
step on... somebody might be watching you. and I don't mean the rich ass espn guy who says He can
read your brain. he can. and again I have not got 1 cent or any help in any way from them billion
dollor a year know it all. in fact they [censored] on me....