best internal shifting hub?

In rec.bicycles.tech Khoomei said:

What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
- reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
- reliable operation
- parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working out of his garage.
- has more than 3 speeds.

The 14-speed Rohloff Speedhub should satisfy all these requirements (and many more), especially as
you didn't specify any price limitations. See:

rohloff.derohloff.deOpen ↗

It's about $800, available for example from Harris Cyclery.

-as

RE/

Quoted message said:

What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
- reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
- reliable operation
- parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working out of his garage.
- has more than 3 speeds.

Depending on one's definition of "reasonably lightweight", there may not be much left.

Rohloff adds about two pounds to the bike, is less efficient, makes considerable noise, and costs an
arm and a leg.

I just bought a second one for my hardtail.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell

How about for drop bars as well?

Antti Salonen said:

In rec.bicycles.tech Khoomei said:

What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
- reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
- reliable operation
- parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working out of his garage.
- has more than 3 speeds.

The 14-speed Rohloff Speedhub should satisfy all these requirements (and many more), especially as
you didn't specify any price limitations. See:

rohloff.derohloff.deOpen ↗

It's about $800, available for example from Harris Cyclery.

-as

Khoomei said:

How about for drop bars as well?

See: sheldonbrown.comrohloff.htmlOpen ↗

Scroll down about 2/3 of the way.

Sheldon "Roll On" Brown +-----------------------------------+
| Habit is the nursery of errors. | --Victor Hugo |
+-----------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772
FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Sheldon Brown said:

Khoomei said:

How about for drop bars as well?

See: sheldonbrown.comrohloff.htmlOpen ↗

Scroll down about 2/3 of the way.

I never thought I'd see the return of stem shifters!

That Surly with 2 sets of bars is awesome.

"Tuva or Bust!" fotuva.orgfotuva.orgOpen ↗

Khoomei said:

How about for drop bars as well?

A German company (Norwid) makes a separable road handlebar suitable for mounting the Rohloff twist
grip. Last I heard, these bars were available through Rohloff's US office (contact info at
www.rohloffusa.com).

Or you can make your own twist grip: qnet.comtwist.htmlOpen ↗

Tom Ace

Does this Rohloff, or the other new internal-gear hubs available these days, have the same design
issue that Jobst has refered to existing in the Sturmey-Archer hubs that pitched him off the bike?

Also, how loud are these things? I am getting spoiled by my quiet shimano one-speed freewheel!

Thanks!

Jennifer D

Khoomei said:

What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
- reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
- reliable operation
- parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working out of his garage.
- has more than 3 speeds.

It seems like all gearhubs from 4 to 14 speeds weigh about the same
1.7 kg, give or take. With some you get a brake, making those effectively a little lighter.

Only the Rohloff Speedhub gives step sizes between gears that compare to a road group. However,
Sachs's and Shimano's 7 speed hubs give overall ranges similar to that of a road bike. (Road bike
with 53/39 crank and 12-23 block: 260% Sachs/SRAM 7 speed: 303% Shimano Nexus 7-speed: 244%)

If you need lots of gearing range and you can afford the Rohloff, then that's the one for you.
I have had two, and I don't think anyone would find reason to switch back once accustomed to
the Rohloff.

If the price of the Rohloff is too much committment and/or you would like a drum brake, I recommend
the Sachs/SRAM Spectro 7 speed. It is the most free-running gearhub (with more than 3 speeds) I have
used, it seems quite durable, and the brake works consistently with minimal fade.

Chalo Colina

Quoted message said:

If you need lots of gearing range and you can afford the Rohloff, then that's the one for you. I
have had two, and I don't think anyone would find reason to switch back once accustomed to the
Rohloff.

Chalo Colina

I am interested in hearing a little more from Chalo on the Rohloff, and his reasons for buying them.
(Chalo, aka Bluto is knowledgeable about machining, materials and manufacturing, and is a super-size
kind of fellow.)

Chalo, have you ever taken one apart, either out of curiosity or necessity? If so, did inspecting
the innards lower or raise your initial evaluation?

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

RE/

Quoted message said:

Does this Rohloff, or the other new internal-gear hubs available these days, have the same design
issue that Jobst has refered to existing in the Sturmey-Archer hubs that pitched him off the bike?

Dunno what the Jobst issue was - but I've been riding Rohloff on my ATB for a few thousand miles and
haven't run into anything I'd call an issue.

Quoted message said:

Also, how loud are these things? I am getting spoiled by my quiet shimano one-speed freewheel!

Depends on your sensitivity/perceptiveness and, probably, neurosis level.

I consider mine TB very loud in gears 7 and below and fairly loud in gears 8-14. It's not just when
pedaling either - lotta clicking going on in there with the pawls.

I think it's something you have to hear and evaluate yourself. Personally, I don't care for
the noise, but just bought my second Rohloff hub (for my hardtail) and wouldn't go back if I
could avoid it.

-----------------------
PeteCresswell

Hi, Sheldon, that idea is just too cool.

Thanks.

Lewis. (Who has a Rohloff hub but is not using it yet)

*************************************

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Khoomei said:

How about for drop bars as well?

See: sheldonbrown.comrohloff.htmlOpen ↗

Scroll down about 2/3 of the way.

Sheldon "Roll On" Brown +-----------------------------------+
| Habit is the nursery of errors. | --Victor Hugo |
+-----------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

What about the durability of the Rohloff hub? I always heard about how great Phil Wood hubs are. I
was very disappointed with them and repeatedly trashed the insides (esp. where the pawls bite into).
You would think with all the gears inside the Rohloff that something is likely to go in a relatively
short period of time. I weigh over 200 pounds too. You can imagine that I'm seeing myself spend $800
and then thrash the gears and its junk on the side of the road. Then I'm opening the hub up trying
to figure out where 100 gears fit in there.

So you're saying that there is more friction? Is that when coasting? only when applying force
to the cog?

I think the shifter on drop bars is not ready for prime time. If only someone could come up with a
decent shifter for drop bars. I like the concept though. If these kinds of hubs are very reliable,
then they sound great.

Are we saying that if we take a road bike with say Ultegra trip and STI and switch to Rohloff and no
derailleurs that its going to be roughly 2 pounds heavier? I'm just trying to get a ballpark figure.

I wish Shimano was more flexible with the road group components. As it is STI is not cyclocross
friendly in terms of brakes.

(Chalo) said:

Khoomei said:

What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
- reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
- reliable operation
- parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working out of his garage.
- has more than 3 speeds.

It seems like all gearhubs from 4 to 14 speeds weigh about the same
1.7 kg, give or take. With some you get a brake, making those effectively a little lighter.

Only the Rohloff Speedhub gives step sizes between gears that compare to a road group. However,
Sachs's and Shimano's 7 speed hubs give overall ranges similar to that of a road bike. (Road bike
with 53/39 crank and 12-23 block: 260% Sachs/SRAM 7 speed: 303% Shimano Nexus 7-speed: 244%)

If you need lots of gearing range and you can afford the Rohloff, then that's the one for you.
I have had two, and I don't think anyone would find reason to switch back once accustomed to
the Rohloff.

If the price of the Rohloff is too much committment and/or you would like a drum brake, I recommend
the Sachs/SRAM Spectro 7 speed. It is the most free-running gearhub (with more than 3 speeds) I
have used, it seems quite durable, and the brake works consistently with minimal fade.

Chalo Colina

Quoted message said:

You would think with all the gears inside the Rohloff that something is likely to go in a
relatively short period of time. I weigh over 200 pounds too. You can imagine that I'm seeing
myself spend $800 and then thrash the gears and its junk on the side of the road. Then I'm opening
the hub up trying to figure out where 100 gears fit in there.

No experience with the Rohloff, but myself and many other Bike Friday owners have had good
experience with the Sachs 3 X 7 (and 8 and 9...) hubs on Tandem Twos'days.

Tandems make 200 pound loads look like nothing.

Chris Neary [email hidden]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the
elements I loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

Compared to a road group, they are all about 2 pounds (1 kg) heavier. They all are more reliable
than a derailleur. Parts availability should be good for all of them, although repairs will more
likely involve the factory rather than some guy in a garage. Going on 4,000 trouble-free miles on my
Nexus-7, whose' one disadvantage is a narrower overall gear range than on a typical derailleur bike.

Paul

In message <[email hidden]>, Jennifer Donleavy
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Does this Rohloff, or the other new internal-gear hubs available these days, have the same design
issue that Jobst has refered to existing in the Sturmey-Archer hubs that pitched him off the bike?

No. Not the specific problem he has described in this group anyway.

He has written up a problem where an Sturmey Archer AW hub jumps out of high gear under heavy load
when the rider is standing. The pedals give way and the rider falls.

I do not know how common this behaviour is and how many thousands of miles service his hub had done
before it failed.

The detailed reason he gives for this failure only applies to a hub with a cruciform clutch passing
load to the planet cage through extensions of the planet pins. This design was used in AW and the
AG dynohub and the very similar drum brake 3 speed hubs. It was not used for medium or close ratios
3 speeds (such as AM and AC), or the 4 speed FM, FC or the FW and its five speed children the S5,
S5/1 or S5/2.

The 5 Star (early 1990s?) axle would probably break anyway with the sort of heavy use he describes
so best avoid that one.

The Sturmey Archer Sprinter 5s and 7s use a different form of clutch and an extra ratchet that means
there is no neutral position. I've not seen inside the new 3 speed from Taiwan but understand that
they use this system too. My first 5 speed Sprinter was made near the end of Nottingham production
in 2000 and had a problem with heavy loads in first gear. It was replaced by the shop and its
replacement has taken some hard use without any problems, bearing in mind that it's still nearly new
in hub gear terms. I have read that the 7 speed Sprinter was not always reliable.

I don't find I want to stand on the pedals in high gear on a 3 speed bike anyway. I'm happy to
change down when I get to a hill, that is after all why we have gears, although I often stand to
climb moderate and short hills in middle gear (direct drive on all 3 and 5 speed SA gears sold in
the last 80 years or so I think). It's quite hilly round here so I prefer a 5 speed.

Looking beyond the specific design problem attributed to the AW, any gear system could fail to carry
load if it is overloaded or worn out. With totally exposed gears wear is more obvious (as well as
very much faster) but I expect some riders have fallen off because they didn't notice that the teeth
on their chainwheel had all but gone. Though not Jobst Brandt one would imagine.

Rohloff specify a maximum torque but I've no idea about noise or longevity on those.

Quoted message said:

Also, how loud are these things? I am getting spoiled by my quiet shimano one-speed freewheel!

I can't help with a decibels figure but unless you plan to fit a gun mount and stalk game or
poachers by bicycle you'll not be seriously disadvantaged. A little bit of noise is no bad thing.
(Last Sunday on a quite country lane a dog walker stepped out in front of us on our nearly silent 24
speed tandem. Our combined panic yell made her jump back just far enough, just in time.) I doubt
that you will hear any of the hubs in motor traffic or with planes or helicopters (our local Royal
Navy noise makers) near.

For some of us who had a hub gear in our now distant childhood that lovely nostalgic tick, tick,
tick, in the middle gears is a great comfort.... On a more practical note the ticking in middle gear
of a 3 speed or gears 3 and 4 of a 5 speed gives an instant health check on the low gear pawl
springs. (Total failure here can also allow the hub to freewheel forward but in low gear in this
case.) For older oil lubricated hubs, the tick also gives guidance on the lubrication status.

See

sheldonbrown.comsturmey archer.htmlOpen ↗

Martyn

Martyn Aldis, e-mail [email hidden]
==============================================================================

Khoomei <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

What about the durability of the Rohloff hub?

To address your question and Ted Bennett's, the Rohloff hub *seems* very sturdy indeed. After it had
been out on the market for a short time, Rohloff decided to certify it as fit for tandem use and
offer a model designed for heavy-gauge spokes.

All the separate components are machined out of solid chunks of metal, even where it appears
stampings or plastic castings would suffice. And all the fits of corresponding surfaces are perfect
to a degree I don't see in other cycle components-- more like inside-the-crankcase automotive stuff.

To be honest, I haven't popped off the "hub cap" and taken a peek at the gear cartidge. There is an
internal shift cable in there which I don't really want to remove or replace unnecessarily; my
experience with routing just the external shift cables has already been an exercise in alternative
vocabulary. I do know that inside it features roller bearings where other gearhubs use plain
bearings (bushings).

Quoted message said:

I always heard about how great Phil Wood hubs are. I was very disappointed with them and
repeatedly trashed the insides (esp. where the pawls bite into).

Phil built their reputation on threaded freewheel hubs, and that is still their strength.

Quoted message said:

You would think with all the gears inside the Rohloff that something is likely to go in a
relatively short period of time. I weigh over 200 pounds too. You can imagine that I'm seeing
myself spend $800 and then thrash the gears and its junk on the side of the road. Then I'm opening
the hub up trying to figure out where 100 gears fit in there.

Rohloff is unusually forthcoming about their design spec and limitations. They say "maximum torque
loads in extreme conditions can be as high as 250 Nm on the crank" (design spec) and "you must not
use a chainring/cog ratio of less than 2.4" (operational limit). In effect, they let you know what
you can do to be sure the hub operates within its design parameters. 2.4:1 means not lower than a
38t ring in combination with the stock 16t cog, in order to meet their spec.

Since I weigh 165kg (360 lbs) and use longer-than-usual cranks, I have geared up to 44/16 or 2.75:1
in order to lessen the torques seen by the hub. I may raise this gearing even more at some time,
because the low gears are so low as it is. For road bike use this would be necessary anyway if you
wanted the high gear at a road-bike-like top ratio-- 48/16 or 50/16 would be about right.

It's pretty obvious when examining the Rohloff hub that there were no significant corners cut in
manufacturing the item. The finish is good but not Campagnolo good, but that doesn't tell the whole
story. There is an overall integration of precision fits that lets you know cost reduction was not
objective #1 in the making of the thing. It reminds me of the better-made machines I've examined:
all metal cameras and telescopes, precision firearms, gauges and instruments and measuring tools. To
me it appears the designers were not at every stage asking themselves, "do we really need to use a
precision part here?", they were just doing it.

Quoted message said:

So you're saying that there is more friction? Is that when coasting? only when applying force to
the cog?

The Rohloff hub has a dragginess that is quite noticeable when handling the hub and working it by
hand, but hard for me to distinguish while riding. A couple of the middle gears, 5 and 7 IIRC, make
a good bit of whirring/grumbling noise, which makes them feel inefficient to me. I think I remember
seeing an efficiency table somewhere that bore out that impression more or less.

Quoted message said:

I think the shifter on drop bars is not ready for prime time. If only someone could come up with a
decent shifter for drop bars. I like the concept though. If these kinds of hubs are very reliable,
then they sound great.

You gotta love the regular maintenance schedule for the Rohloff hub, which goes, "change the oil
once a year, and don't overtighten the plug while you're at it."

Quoted message said:

Are we saying that if we take a road bike with say Ultegra trip and STI and switch to Rohloff
and no derailleurs that its going to be roughly 2 pounds heavier? I'm just trying to get a
ballpark figure.

The Rohloff hub weighs ~1700g. To this add the weight of the shifter, two cables, and two plain
brake levers. You must compare this total to the weight of an Ultegra freehub, cassette, front and
rear derailleurs, middle and inner chainrings, two cables, and two STI brifters. Frankly I'd be a
little surprised if the difference were a whole two pounds or 900g, but it's in the ballpark.

The Rohloff as installed will have a noticeable effect on the bike's weight distribution because
it's all in one lump at the rear axle. This is something more easily perceived when carrying the
bike than when riding, though.

Chalo Colina

Chris Neary said:

No experience with the Rohloff, but myself and many other Bike Friday owners have had good
experience with the Sachs 3 X 7 (and 8 and 9...) hubs on Tandem Twos'days.

Tandems make 200 pound loads look like nothing.

But small wheels significantly reduce a hub's torque load compared to full-sized ones.

Chalo Colina

RE/

Quoted message said:

Frankly I'd be a little surprised if the difference were a whole two pounds or 900g, but it's in
the ballpark.

It's got to depend on the weight of what it's replacing.

The one I put on my FS replaced a SRAM 9.0 setup. I weighed the whole bike before and after and the
diff was almost precisely 2 pounds.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell

RE/

Quoted message said:

He has written up a problem where an Sturmey Archer AW hub jumps out of high gear under heavy load
when the rider is standing. The pedals give way and the rider falls.

I do a lot of out-of-the-saddle climbing on my Rohloff and never ran into anything like that.

Rohloff does, however, have own (albiet precictable) quirk: if you try to move between gears 7 and 8
under load, it'll pop you into 14 until you take the load off. Not a aproblem once you learn not to
do that....and easy to learn since shifts are nearly instantaneous - i.e. you don't have to back off
on the power very long.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell