Best bike for a long commute



In article <XEp*[email protected]>, David Damerell wrote:
>Quoting Alan Braggins <[email protected]>:
>
>>Of course those who object to the purity of their bikes being sullied
>>by any kind of motor will object, but it's over a hundred years too
>>late for that.

>
>Er - no, it isn't - none of _my_ bikes is sullied by any kind of motor.


No-one is suggesting fitting a motor to _your_ specific bikes, so there's
no need to object to it. It's the pretended moral guardianship of the
purity of bikes in general that objects to the very idea of power assist.
 
If you want real comfort and you have the dosh{£1500} my neighbours ICE
recumbent trike looks great.
Never seen him on his upwrong since he got it.
Rides it almost every day.
I see it comes with a pretty impressive rear suspension now.
Its got very impressive build quality.
Seems to dismantle rather quickly to fit in the back of an average size
hatchback.
Tam
 
Tim 50cycles <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 4 Dec, 14:30, David Damerell <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Build fitness by having a motor cycle for you - that makes perfect sense!

>
> Well, for many people it does make perfect sense.
>
> >
> > >Have a look at my sitewww.example.comfor some ideas. We have one
> > >new German model that can do between 30 and 50 miles on a charge,
> > >depending on the level of assistance.

> >
> > Ever so useful for someone contemplating a 62 mile round trip.

>
> Believe it or not the bike uses a rechargeable battery, and one that
> charges in somewhat less than the length of the average working day.
>
> Tim


and would last how far up and down hills?

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
 
Quoting Alan Braggins <[email protected]>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>Er - no, it isn't - none of _my_ bikes is sullied by any kind of motor.

>No-one is suggesting fitting a motor to _your_ specific bikes, so there's
>no need to object to it. It's the pretended moral guardianship of the
>purity of bikes in general that objects to the very idea of power assist.


That's a very exaggerated way of saying that some people think human
powered vehicles are different from other vehicles by virtue of being
human powered.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Gorgonzoladay, November - a weekend.
 
In article <lrb*[email protected]>, David Damerell wrote:
>Quoting Alan Braggins <[email protected]>:
>>David Damerell wrote:
>>>Er - no, it isn't - none of _my_ bikes is sullied by any kind of motor.

>>No-one is suggesting fitting a motor to _your_ specific bikes, so there's
>>no need to object to it. It's the pretended moral guardianship of the
>>purity of bikes in general that objects to the very idea of power assist.

>
>That's a very exaggerated way of saying that some people think human
>powered vehicles are different from other vehicles by virtue of being
>human powered.


It would have been exaggerated if that was what I was saying. But one can
think that at the same time as thinking that assisted bikes have a
legitimate (if small niche) role as a transport solution, and more in
common with uk.rec.cycling than, say, uk.transport.

How's your campaign to have "downhill cycling" renamed as "gravity sport on
a bicycle which isn't cycling" going by the way? (This is not an invitation
to repeat old arguments, just a request for news.)
 
In article <TZh*[email protected]>, David Damerell
[email protected] says...
> Quoting Tim 50cycles <[email protected]>:
> >Have you considered a pedal assist bike?

>
> He says, "helpfully" leaving the mention that he sells them until later.
>
> >options to get to work. As someone who hadn't cycled for a decade or
> >more at the time, I felt the need for a little help, not least in
> >getting a head start in traffic and to build fitness.

>
> Build fitness by having a motor cycle for you - that makes perfect sense!
>

It does if the motor allows you to regularly complete a ride that you
otherwise wouldn't undertake because of time or fatigue constraints.
 
Quoting Alan Braggins <[email protected]>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>Quoting Alan Braggins <[email protected]>:
>>>No-one is suggesting fitting a motor to _your_ specific bikes, so there's
>>>no need to object to it. It's the pretended moral guardianship of the
>>>purity of bikes in general that objects to the very idea of power assist.

>>That's a very exaggerated way of saying that some people think human
>>powered vehicles are different from other vehicles by virtue of being
>>human powered.

>It would have been exaggerated if that was what I was saying.


That's pretty much exactly what you were saying - all that "moral
guardianship"... "purity" stuff is just a ridiculous twist on the idea
that bicycles and motorcycles aren't really the same thing.

>How's your campaign to have "downhill cycling" renamed as "gravity sport on
>a bicycle which isn't cycling" going by the way? (This is not an invitation
>to repeat old arguments, just a request for news.)


Actually, it's another piece of spurious - well, let's be kind here and
call it exaggeration and not just a lie. Stick to the point, if you can,
and spare me the "moral guardianship".
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Gorgonzoladay, November - a weekend.
 
Quoting Rob Morley <[email protected]>:
>[email protected] says...
>>Build fitness by having a motor cycle for you - that makes perfect sense!

>It does if the motor allows you to regularly complete a ride that you
>otherwise wouldn't undertake because of time or fatigue constraints.


Sounds great on paper, but of course the OP _is_ undertaking their ride
without motor assistance [1], and in practice these people who got fit by
noodling around on electric mopeds simply don't seem to exist.

[1] Of the kind being discussed. This supersedes my previous article
because, although that should be obvious, I can feel the moral guardian
spotting a meaningless pointscoring exercise already.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Gorgonzoladay, November - a weekend.
 
On Dec 5, 2:38 pm, David Damerell <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Sounds great on paper, but of course the OP _is_ undertaking their ride
> without motor assistance [1], and in practice these people who got fit by
> noodling around on electric mopeds simply don't seem to exist.


I could provide numerous testimonials from people who have seen their
health and fitness improve as a direct result of using our bikes. For
example, Ian Seager cycled from London to Paris on one of our bikes
after shattering his knee - he said "My physiotherapist thinks
assisted pedalling like this is perfect for anyone recovering from
knee damage or needing to maintain muscle development." He would never
have been able to complete the distance on a pedal cycle, but riding
an electric helped set him on the road to recovery.

Here's some more on that study I mentioned:

"The research was carried out by the Institute for Transport Studies
at the Department of Civil Engineering, Monash University in
Australia. Geoff Rose offered the following information on the
research:

"The research involved fitting an individual with a heart rate
monitor and comparing the readings when a standard course was ridden
on a conventional and electric power assisted bicycle. The data for
the journey on the E-bike highlighted that the peak heart rate was
consistently lower than when on the conventional bike but still in the
zone where there was cardiovascular benefit."

They are _bicycles_ by the way, definitely not electric mopeds. Look
at this one we have in the works - weighs in at 20.8kg and has a range
in excess of 50 miles -

http://kalkhoff-bikes.de/produktbilder/groesser/kh_proconnect_pedelec_ret08.jpg

Could that possibly be classed as a moped?

Tim
www.50cycles.com
 
In article <93cb3e1b-63ba-4f53-8a79-6fa65ef0fe65@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Tim 50cycles wrote:
>
>They are _bicycles_ by the way, definitely not electric mopeds. Look
>at this one we have in the works - weighs in at 20.8kg [...]
>Could that possibly be classed as a moped?


Compared to a 6.2kg bike? Possibly. (Not in a legal sense, but by
someone using hyperbole (or prone to thinking two things are nearly
exactly the same if the significant differences aren't relevent to
him).)

Compared to a typical commuter bike with typical commuter load, it's
much closer, obviously. But then a typical commuter bike is much cheaper
than either a very lightweight bike or a (relatively) good electric bike.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/tour06/tech/?id=/tech/2006/features/singenberger1
"We were far below the UCI limit, so we had to add weight to it. Our light
bike is 6.2, 6.3 kilos."
 
In article <uYw*[email protected]>, David Damerell wrote:
>Quoting Alan Braggins <[email protected]>:
>>David Damerell wrote:
>>>Quoting Alan Braggins <[email protected]>:
>>>>No-one is suggesting fitting a motor to _your_ specific bikes, so there's
>>>>no need to object to it. It's the pretended moral guardianship of the
>>>>purity of bikes in general that objects to the very idea of power assist.
>>>That's a very exaggerated way of saying that some people think human
>>>powered vehicles are different from other vehicles by virtue of being
>>>human powered.

>>It would have been exaggerated if that was what I was saying.

>
>That's pretty much exactly what you were saying


If you can't see the difference, I can understand why you would be upset.
Ironically, it wasn't you I was (mainly) thinking of when I made the
original comment.
 
Tim 50cycles <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Dec 5, 2:38 pm, David Damerell <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Sounds great on paper, but of course the OP _is_ undertaking their ride
> > without motor assistance [1], and in practice these people who got fit by
> > noodling around on electric mopeds simply don't seem to exist.

>
> I could provide numerous testimonials from people who have seen their
> health and fitness improve as a direct result of using our bikes. For
> example, Ian Seager cycled from London to Paris on one of our bikes
> after shattering his knee - he said "My physiotherapist thinks
> assisted pedalling like this is perfect for anyone recovering from
> knee damage or needing to maintain muscle development." He would never
> have been able to complete the distance on a pedal cycle, but riding
> an electric helped set him on the road to recovery.
>
> Here's some more on that study I mentioned:
>
> "The research was carried out by the Institute for Transport Studies
> at the Department of Civil Engineering, Monash University in
> Australia. Geoff Rose offered the following information on the
> research:
>
> "The research involved fitting an individual with a heart rate
> monitor and comparing the readings when a standard course was ridden
> on a conventional and electric power assisted bicycle. The data for
> the journey on the E-bike highlighted that the peak heart rate was
> consistently lower than when on the conventional bike but still in the
> zone where there was cardiovascular benefit."
>
> They are _bicycles_ by the way, definitely not electric mopeds. Look
> at this one we have in the works - weighs in at 20.8kg and has a range
> in excess of 50 miles -
>
> http://kalkhoff-bikes.de/produktbilder/groesser/kh_proconnect_pedelec_ret0
> 8.jpg
>
> Could that possibly be classed as a moped?


while going back over other ground, have a look at early moped's. modern
mopeds are quite differnt from the early and even not so early moped's

the bike/moped differnce is now more performace, than the drive chain as
such.
>
> Tim
> www.50cycles.com


roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
 

> That's a very exaggerated way of saying that some people think human
> powered vehicles are different from other vehicles by virtue of being
> human powered.
> --

They are.

An excellent example are the Dutch cycle lanes.
The usually sane sober Dutch have decided that "assisted" bikes can go on
bike paths.
Result.
Highly tuned two stroke "mopeds" racing along the bike paths piloted by
demented teenagers
like my son used to be.Filthy two stroke fug everywhere.
Tam
 
">How's your campaign to have "downhill cycling" renamed as "gravity sport
on
>>a bicycle which isn't cycling" going by the way? (This is not an
>>invitation
>>to repeat old arguments, just a request for news.)


Must say I am amazed at all this downhill stuff-bikes that cost the price of
a reasonable
second hand car that you only use going downhill.
Its the market in action-the consumers want them-the market supplies.
As I am using air struts for my new D-I-Y trike I am not complaining.
Tam
 
tam wrote:
> ">How's your campaign to have "downhill cycling" renamed as "gravity sport
> on
>>> a bicycle which isn't cycling" going by the way? (This is not an
>>> invitation
>>> to repeat old arguments, just a request for news.)

>
> Must say I am amazed at all this downhill stuff-bikes that cost the price of
> a reasonable
> second hand car that you only use going downhill.
> Its the market in action-the consumers want them-the market supplies.
> As I am using air struts for my new D-I-Y trike I am not complaining.
> Tam
>

Would they be akin to air-guitars?
(Hides)
 
in message <[email protected]>, newsgroup
('[email protected]') wrote:

> OK. Now that I've dipped my toe into the pool thought I'd try another.
>
> For health reasons I have to increase my level of exercise. I already
> cycle at weekends off road at a local forest centre (about 20 miles) and
> use a gym semi regular. I want to incorporate exercise as a part of my
> day.
>
> I currently drive 31 miles each way to work. It is my aim to start
> cycling part then all of that as my fitness increases.


That's a long commute. Even if you're quick it's going to take you the best
part of two hours each way. My longest cycle commute was 21 miles, which
was about an hour and a quarter and that was do-able. I'm not saying you
can't do it, but you need to be fit and have a quick bike.

> My question? Well what bike would fit the bill for such a commute? Dont
> think my mountain bike will do the trick!
>
> The roads are mainly country A roads with some hilly sections. I'm no
> youngster so a more "relaxed" riding position would be ideal.


I currently commute on one of these:

http://www.bikes-dolan.uk.com/en-us/dept_92.html
(note: that price is for the frameset only!)

It's fast (although I'm currently commuting on full-on cyclo-cross tyres,
which aren't as fast as slicks, because I take it mountain-biking with
work-mates at lunchtime), climbs well (which it needs to - I've a BIG hill
to go over) and is generally fun and engaging to ride. But if you're going
to commute on what is pretty close to a full on race bike in winter,
you've got a fairly big commitment to maintaining your transmission.
Derailleurs don't like the amount of wet and dirt that is involved in
winter commuting. The roads are amazingly filthy at this time of year.

You also need to think carefully about clothes. I've had two evenings this
week when I've come home, undressed in front of the washing machine and
just thrown everything in. Bulky clothes - and anything seriously
waterproof for cycling tends to be bulky, particularly for the legs - slow
you down, because of poor aerodynamics. I find that it's best to make a
compromise that avoids the fully waterproof in favour of the fast.

Part of the reason I chose a cross bike as an all-year commuter was that I
thought cantilever brakes would cope better with the general **** and wet
of winter riding than dual pivot callipers. I mildly disappointed with
them - they are good, and they have lots of tyre clearance, but they
aren't as good as I'd expected.

> Have seen touring bikes such as the Dawes Galaxy in the past, is this a
> suitable beast?


No, not fast enough, riding position too upright. If you're going to do an
all year, all weather commute over that distance you need a bike that's
fast and light but at the same time adapted for low maintenance. Probably
the best solution would be to start with a track frame and fit a hub gear.

Something like this:

http://www.bikes-dolan.uk.com/en-us/dept_19.html
or, if you're slumming it, this:
http://www.evanscycles.com/product.jsp?style=86031
(but in either case check the OLN dimension will fit your chosen hub. Also,
make sure it is drilled for brakes front and rear - a lot of track frames
aren't.)

The reason for a track frame is that you can adjust the hub position to
adjust chain tension, so that you don't need a tensioner arm, so that you
can run a full chaincase, so that you can keep your transmission out of
the weather.

The alternative, if you don't want to ride in a racing crouch, is probably
this:
http://www.flevobike.nl/content/view/16/79/lang,en/

Fully enclosed transmission, comfortable seating, and reasonable
aerodynamics. The downside is it's quite heavy, which is going to hurt
uphill.

Do think about the weather, and the practicalities. This week, I've been
rained on every single day, and the wind hasn't dropped below 20 mph all
week. I've been fortunate in that it's been a headwind in the morning, and
so a tailwind when I'm tired in the evening. But cycling in the half-light
on busy, filthy roads into stinging cold rain being driven into your face
by a strong wind is... character building. And I'm not riding anything
like the distance you're proposing.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

A message from our sponsor: This site is now in free fall
 
in message <[email protected]>, Rob Morley
('[email protected]') wrote:

> In article <TZh*[email protected]>, David Damerell
> [email protected] says...
>> Quoting Tim 50cycles <[email protected]>:
>> >Have you considered a pedal assist bike?

>>
>> He says, "helpfully" leaving the mention that he sells them until later.
>>
>> >options to get to work. As someone who hadn't cycled for a decade or
>> >more at the time, I felt the need for a little help, not least in
>> >getting a head start in traffic and to build fitness.

>>
>> Build fitness by having a motor cycle for you - that makes perfect
>> sense!
>>

> It does if the motor allows you to regularly complete a ride that you
> otherwise wouldn't undertake because of time or fatigue constraints.


I know we've done this argument before, but I think that's a very false
argument. When the motor gives out, you have all that extra weight of
battery and motor to lug home, and electric bikes are rarely optimised for
efficient riding. I'd be enormously surprised if /anyone/ on an electric
assist bike does less work over any distance on any terrain than the same
person on the same route at the same speed on a good lightweight race
bike.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

:: Wisdom is better than weapons of war ::
:: Ecclesiastes 9:18 ::
 
in message
<93cb3e1b-63ba-4f53-8a79-6fa65ef0fe65@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Tim
50cycles ('[email protected]') wrote:

> They are _bicycles_ by the way, definitely not electric mopeds. Look
> at this one we have in the works - weighs in at 20.8kg and has a range
> in excess of 50 miles -
>
>

http://kalkhoff-bikes.de/produktbilder/groesser/kh_proconnect_pedelec_ret08.jpg
>
> Could that possibly be classed as a moped?


Yes. It /is/ a moped. MOtor + PEDal = moped.

Furthermore, a bike weighing over 20 Kg with a range of 50 miles on a
round-trip commute of 61 miles means 11 miles each day lugging that 20Kg,
and that is not going to be any kind of fun. Even assuming the 50 miles is
something that can be sustained day after day for months on a battery that
is being completely discharged every day.

I simply do not believe that an electric assist bike offers a net saving of
effort over an efficient lightweight pedal cycle, in any serious use case.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I shall continue to be an impossible person so long as those
who are now possible remain possible -- Michael Bakunin
 
in message <uYw*[email protected]>, David Damerell
('[email protected]') wrote:

>>How's your campaign to have "downhill cycling" renamed as "gravity sport
>>on a bicycle which isn't cycling" going by the way? (This is not an
>>invitation to repeat old arguments, just a request for news.)

>
> Actually, it's another piece of spurious - well, let's be kind here and
> call it exaggeration and not just a lie. Stick to the point, if you can,
> and spare me the "moral guardianship".


While I've a great admiration for the downhill folks, any sport which uses
a motor to get the bike up the hill is motor sport in my book. It's great
spectacle, and they're both brave and skilled, but it isn't really
cycling.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Copyright (c) Simon Brooke; All rights reserved. Permission is
granted to transfer this message via UUCP or NNTP and to store it
for the purpose of archiving or further transfer. Permission is
explicitly denied to use this message as part of a 'Web Forum', or
to transfer it by HTTP.
 
in message <[email protected]>, Pete Biggs
('[email protected]') wrote:

> newsgroup wrote:
>> OK. Now that I've dipped my toe into the pool thought I'd try another.
>>
>> For health reasons I have to increase my level of exercise. I already
>> cycle at weekends off road at a local forest centre (about 20 miles)
>> and use a gym semi regular. I want to incorporate exercise as a part
>> of my day.
>> I currently drive 31 miles each way to work. It is my aim to start
>> cycling part then all of that as my fitness increases.
>>
>> My question? Well what bike would fit the bill for such a commute?
>> Dont think my mountain bike will do the trick!
>>
>> The roads are mainly country A roads with some hilly sections. I'm no
>> youngster so a more "relaxed" riding position would be ideal.
>>
>> Have seen touring bikes such as the Dawes Galaxy in the past, is this
>> a suitable beast?
>>
>> Your views will be most welcome.

>
> I suggest a Tifosi CK7 or any audax style bike like that.
>
> Remember that you can make the riding position more upright with any bike
> by replacing the handlebar stem for a shorter one with a steeper rise
> angle, for example.


While I'd generally bow to Pete's greater wisdom, if you're seriously
talking about commuting 62 miles round trip with any sort of regularity,
you want those bars down, not up. Every scrap of aerodynamic advantage you
can gain is going to make your commute more comfortable.

Oh - and choose your saddle with care. You're going to spend a lot of time
in it.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Good grief, I can remember when England won the Ashes.