Berlin

John Hearns said:

Just back from Berlin.
When cars take a right turn at the lights (left here) they give way to
cyclists and pedestrians. Heaven.

Until you have a green pedestrian man and get hit by a car you've not
seen because he has a green light as well. I *hate* it.

Quoted message said:

Cyclists everywhere on the pavements, and not a Daily Mail reader in sight.

A Good Thing(TM)

Quoted message said:

Also a good scheme from Deutches Bahn,u bikes for hire sitting in
the streets. Phone the number of the bike and you get an unlock code by
SMS.

Did you try one?

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just back from Berlin.
When cars take a right turn at the lights (left here) they give way to
cyclists and pedestrians. Heaven.

If only that sort of (self?) discipline existed here. Only yesterday in
York, stopped at an advance stop line, well ahead in the field of view of
the motorist behind me, when the lights changed he accelerated past me and
honked his horn as he turned left. In my case he couldn't claim SMIDSY as I
must have had a similar effect as a solar eclipse i.e. I'm not small and
insignificant. It was one of those rare occasions when I felt angry. I
thought York was meant to be a cycle friendly city.....

John Hearns said:

Just back from Berlin.
When cars take a right turn at the lights (left here) they give way to
cyclists and pedestrians. Heaven.
Cyclists everywhere on the pavements, and not a Daily Mail reader in sight.

Also a good scheme from Deutches Bahn,u bikes for hire sitting in
the streets. Phone the number of the bike and you get an unlock code by
SMS.

Similar sort of thing when I was in Kyoto earlier this year. Its a
mainly flat city laid out on a grid and filled with bikes. I had to
unlearn most of what I do here, ride on the pavement, expect cars to
give way to me etc. They also have a fabulous cycle hire scheme where
you can hire a bike for 1000yen a day (£5)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/claudius-xiv/116970833/in/set-72057594087981802/
is a picture of my lovely 3 speed sit up & beg 🙂

Stan Cox

"John Hearns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just back from Berlin.
When cars take a right turn at the lights (left here) they give way to
cyclists and pedestrians. Heaven.
Cyclists everywhere on the pavements, and not a Daily Mail reader in
sight.

Also a good scheme from Deutches Bahn,u bikes for hire sitting in
the streets. Phone the number of the bike and you get an unlock code by
SMS.

Yup, same in Cologne. Cyclists & pedestrians mixing without the wailing,
gnashing of teeth, pulling of hair and rending of garments as so beloved of
the writing and readership of the Daily Wail. Even pedestrians keeping out
of the cycle part of shared use facilities, so cyclists kept out the
pedestrian part of shared use facilities... Cycling is something *normal*
done by all ages, for fun, for sport, as a legitimate means of transport to
get from A to B...

Lovely, isn't it :-)

Quoted message said:

Lovely, isn't it :-)

It sounds like heaven. Why can't it be like that over here!

A couple of decades ago I crossed a deserted street with a friend
against a red pedestrian light in Munster.
A policeman drew his pistol and chased us for some time.He didn't
actually open fire, but then we didn't give him a good chance for an
aimed shot.
It occurred to me that I had discovered the reason for the apparrent
orderliness of the masses at the shops.
Unfortunately if the police were to shoot anyone for highway code
offences here they would undoubtedly start with the pavement cyclists.
TerryJ

In article <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

A couple of decades ago I crossed a deserted street with a friend
against a red pedestrian light in Munster.
A policeman drew his pistol and chased us for some time.He didn't
actually open fire, but then we didn't give him a good chance for an
aimed shot.
It occurred to me that I had discovered the reason for the apparrent
orderliness of the masses at the shops.
Unfortunately if the police were to shoot anyone for highway code
offences here they would undoubtedly start with the pavement cyclists.

That seems reasonable to me, as long as they shoot pedestrians on cycle
paths as well, and any drivers who block cycle lanes or overtake you
approaching a queue or junction then pull over and slam on the brakes
....

"Rob Morley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Quoted message said:

That seems reasonable to me, as long as they shoot pedestrians on cycle
paths as well, and any drivers who block cycle lanes or overtake you
approaching a queue or junction then pull over and slam on the brakes
...

I have a desire to see photon torpedos launched from speed cameras to catch
the unobservent twunts who fail to notice BRIGHT yellow boxes giving them
more than A Clue...

'cos our drivers need education, lots of it, and a change of outlook, and an
intelligence implant, and need to develop a regard for others, and knock top
gear on the head.
Somehow don't seem likely to me.

--
John Clayton
www.calder-clarion.co.uk

"Brian" wrote in message...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lovely, isn't it :-)

It sounds like heaven. Why can't it be like that over here!

Quoted message said:

A couple of decades ago I crossed a deserted street with a friend
against a red pedestrian light in Munster.
A policeman drew his pistol and chased us for some time.He didn't
actually open fire, but then we didn't give him a good chance for an
aimed shot.
It occurred to me that I had discovered the reason for the apparrent
orderliness of the masses at the shops.
Unfortunately if the police were to shoot anyone for highway code
offences here they would undoubtedly start with the pavement cyclists.
TerryJ

Friends of mine have returned from Germany with stories of being shouted
at by passersby to cease and desist their lawless behavior while
committing the crime you describe. I will pass your story on to them.

mark

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately if the police were to shoot anyone for highway code
offences here they would undoubtedly start with the pavement cyclists.
TerryJ

Unfortunately?

Julesh

Tosspot said:

John Hearns said:

Just back from Berlin.
When cars take a right turn at the lights (left here) they give way to
cyclists and pedestrians. Heaven.

Until you have a green pedestrian man and get hit by a car you've not
seen because he has a green light as well. I *hate* it.

This rule or ethic is brilliant. It may seem crazy to a Brit, but
that's because they are so used to having separate pedestrian and
cyclist-only phases on traffic lights.

Also brilliant in former East Germany is the 'Right turn on Red' rule.

It all comes down to what kids are taught in schools (equivalent of
Green Cross Code, Cycling Proficency etc.) and the attitude/ethic they
are brought up on. So when they start cycling to school and eventually
learn to drive, it is just natural to check when turning L or R that is
is safe to proceed. Similarly, as pedestrian/cyclist it is still your
responsibility to check that is is safe to cross even though you do have
right of way (which is actually no different to UK).

In both Germany and Holland, learning to drive takes a lot longer, and
certainly in Germany, involves classroom lessons before even being
allowed in a car. So all of these rules have been taught before they
even start driving. Don't know about others here, but my 1st driving
lesson was 5 minutes familiarising my self with controls, and then
straight onto a 60mph main road (which is now 30/40mph due to Sustrans
cycle gutter and daft traffic calming zones).

In Holland, they have 1 more 'rule', which is that the cyclist is always
in the right. As a driver, hit one, or indeed even put yourself in a
postion so as to be hit by a cyclist, and you've got a lot of hassle on
your plate, and a high probability of being deemed automatically at fault.

--
AndyM
(Petrolhead and Cyclist, resident in Germany, formerly resident in NL)

Andy M said the following on 30/05/2006 22:49:

Quoted message said:

In Holland, they have 1 more 'rule', which is that the cyclist is always
in the right. As a driver, hit one, or indeed even put yourself in a
postion so as to be hit by a cyclist, and you've got a lot of hassle on
your plate, and a high probability of being deemed automatically at fault.

My brother lives in Holland (Haarlem) although he isn't a cyclist. He
reckons Holland is far more advanced than the UK on things like that,
and certainly cyclists are given far more respect there than we are over
here.

Come to think of it, when he lived in Moscow he reckoned they were far
more advanced than the UK!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Paul Boyd said:

Andy M said the following on 30/05/2006 22:49:

Quoted message said:

In Holland, they have 1 more 'rule', which is that the cyclist is always
in the right. As a driver, hit one, or indeed even put yourself in a
postion so as to be hit by a cyclist, and you've got a lot of hassle on
your plate, and a high probability of being deemed automatically at fault.

My brother lives in Holland (Haarlem) although he isn't a cyclist. He
reckons Holland is far more advanced than the UK on things like that,
and certainly cyclists are given far more respect there than we are over
here.

It is just culture. The Dutch were pretty much brought up on bikes,
cycle everywhere, all tke kids cycle to school, and the facilities just
match their culture.

UK is (apparently) trying to change from one where kids are prevented
from doing any kind of physical activity or walking/cycling to school
'because it is too dangerous'.

Germany is more like the UK, in that most facilities are MUPs and
painted red gutters, and cycle routes are an after thought, but the
culture of giving way at juctions is similar to Holland.

The other feature which is being branded as a high-profile experimental
scheme in the UK is already the norm in both Germany and Holland. In
residential areas, there are either NO markings on roads thereby
forcing all cars, cyclists and pedestrains to give way, OR at a
junction EVERY direction has a stop/giveway marking.

The rules are simple, and work. It just needs the right culture,
(which sadly as an Ex-pat brit, I don't think the UK possesses. I
can't see culture change happening any time soon regardless of how many
government schemes and tax-payers money is thrown at the issue.

Quoted message said:

Come to think of it, when he lived in Moscow he reckoned they were far
more advanced than the UK!

I wouldn't go that far, but UK is certainly tending towards the chaos
of Moscow driving, rather than that of NL and DE. (Although both NL
and DE I'd say are just as incompetent as UK drivers, even if they do
give way to pedestrians and cyclists).

--
AndyM.

andym said:

It is just culture. The Dutch were pretty much brought up on bikes,
cycle everywhere, all tke kids cycle to school, and the facilities just
match their culture.

There was a rather worrying item in the Dutch news recently that the
number of children cycling to school is declining and more kids are being
driven to school 🙁

Roos

Roos Eisma said:

There was a rather worrying item in the Dutch news recently that the
number of children cycling to school is declining and more kids are being
driven to school 🙁

I read that cycling in the Netherlands was following the same decline as
cycling in the UK but started from a much higher level and so was still
relatively quite high

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci