Beloki retires

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Spaceman said:

Kinda sad. I wish a team had of offered him a contract, but he was
never the same after The Crash in the 2003 TdF.

http://www.cyclingpost.com/rider/article_004088.shtml

That crash still haunts my dreams. Not even the actual thump to the
ground so much (though the footage of the rear wheel locking up, the
tubie unspooling from the rim, and the eventual smack is plenty awful)
as the shots of an anguished, pained Beloki screaming and crying as he
lay there.

Broken hip, chasing victory in the Tour, it was a miserable moment.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Spaceman said:

Kinda sad. I wish a team had of offered him a contract, but he was
never the same after The Crash in the 2003 TdF.

http://www.cyclingpost.com/rider/article_004088.shtml

That crash still haunts my dreams. Not even the actual thump to the
ground so much (though the footage of the rear wheel locking up, the
tubie unspooling from the rim, and the eventual smack is plenty awful)
as the shots of an anguished, pained Beloki screaming and crying as he
lay there.

Broken hip, chasing victory in the Tour, it was a miserable moment.

He was never the same after the crash. Too bad, he was a good racer.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Spaceman said:

Kinda sad. I wish a team had of offered him a contract, but he was
never the same after The Crash in the 2003 TdF.

Quoted message said:

http://www.cyclingpost.com/rider/article_004088.shtmlThat crash still haunts my dreams. Not even the actual thump to the

ground so much (though the footage of the rear wheel locking up, the
tubie unspooling from the rim, and the eventual smack is plenty awful)
as the shots of an anguished, pained Beloki screaming and crying as he
lay there.

Broken hip, chasing victory in the Tour, it was a miserable moment.

Dumbass -

Miserable moment indeed, but he's not exactly a psychological fortress
there, allowing that crash to end his career.

Quoted message said:

"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Perhaps, but Erdos did a lot of drugs.

From:
http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2003/06/29/drugs_and_math.html

Like all of Erdos's friends, Graham was concerned about his
drug-taking. In 1979, Graham bet Erdos $500 that he couldn't stop
taking amphetamines for a month. Erdos accepted the challenge, and went
cold turkey for thirty days. After Graham paid up--and wrote the $500
off as a business expense--Erdos said, "You've showed me I'm not an
addict. But I didn't get any work done. I'd get up in the morning and
stare at a blank piece of paper. I'd have no ideas, just like an
ordinary person. You've set mathematics back a month." He promptly
resumed taking pills, and mathematics was the better for it.

<snip><end>

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jason Spaceman said:

Kinda sad. I wish a team had of offered him a contract, but he was
never the same after The Crash in the 2003 TdF.

Quoted message said:

http://www.cyclingpost.com/rider/article_004088.shtmlThat crash still
haunts my dreams. Not even the actual thump to the

ground so much (though the footage of the rear wheel locking up, the
tubie unspooling from the rim, and the eventual smack is plenty awful)
as the shots of an anguished, pained Beloki screaming and crying as he
lay there.

Broken hip, chasing victory in the Tour, it was a miserable moment.

Dumbass -

Miserable moment indeed, but he's not exactly a psychological fortress
there, allowing that crash to end his career.

Perhaps. Do you discount the possibility that the hip fracture had
physical effects even after he returned to racing?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Perhaps, but Erdos did a lot of drugs.

From:
http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2003/06/29/drugs_and_math.html

Like all of Erdos's friends, Graham was concerned about his
drug-taking. In 1979, Graham bet Erdos $500 that he couldn't stop
taking amphetamines for a month. Erdos accepted the challenge, and went
cold turkey for thirty days. After Graham paid up--and wrote the $500
off as a business expense--Erdos said, "You've showed me I'm not an
addict. But I didn't get any work done. I'd get up in the morning and
stare at a blank piece of paper. I'd have no ideas, just like an
ordinary person. You've set mathematics back a month." He promptly
resumed taking pills, and mathematics was the better for it.

Oh, I know all about that. I got the quote from this Slate article:

http://www.slate.com/id/2118315

Which quotes the same anecdote.

I think mathematics is an absolute good, and increasing the amount or
quality of knowledge in the field is a laudable goal. Faster racing does
not have similar benefits. I doubt it's even more entertaining.

I have virtually no ambiguity about drug use in sport: I think it's a
bad idea, and I support the principle that it should be eliminated.

I have never taken any drug in the amphetamine family. I've never
inhaled. The strongest thing I've ever taken is Rum. Sweeet rum...my
last drink was a week or so ago. It's all a blur to me, now.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Miserable moment indeed, but he's not exactly a psychological fortress
there, allowing that crash to end his career.

Perhaps. Do you discount the possibility that the hip fracture had
physical effects even after he returned to racing?

I half agree here. Even Erik Dekker never seemed to quite get back
to the same level after breaking his leg; although Dekker was older.
Beloki did seem less mentally tough though.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Quoted message said:

Perhaps, but Erdos did a lot of drugs.

Quoted message said:

From:
http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2003/06/29/drugs_and_math.html

Quoted message said:

Like all of Erdos's friends, Graham was concerned about his
drug-taking. In 1979, Graham bet Erdos $500 that he couldn't stop
taking amphetamines for a month. Erdos accepted the challenge, and went
cold turkey for thirty days. After Graham paid up--and wrote the $500
off as a business expense--Erdos said, "You've showed me I'm not an
addict. But I didn't get any work done. I'd get up in the morning and
stare at a blank piece of paper. I'd have no ideas, just like an
ordinary person. You've set mathematics back a month." He promptly
resumed taking pills, and mathematics was the better for it.

Quoted message said:

Oh, I know all about that. I got the quote from this Slate article:

http://www.slate.com/id/2118315

Which quotes the same anecdote.

I think mathematics is an absolute good, and increasing the amount or
quality of knowledge in the field is a laudable goal. Faster racing does
not have similar benefits. I doubt it's even more entertaining.

I have virtually no ambiguity about drug use in sport: I think it's a
bad idea, and I support the principle that it should be eliminated.

I have never taken any drug in the amphetamine family. I've never
inhaled. The strongest thing I've ever taken is Rum. Sweeet rum...my
last drink was a week or so ago. It's all a blur to me, now.

Dumbass,

I wish it was that simple, but it isn't. Erdos was a great
mathematician,
but if he had quit speed and math (first of all, he probably could have
kept doing math if he broke the addiction) someone else would
eventually have come along and solved the same problems. So it's
not like the speed is necessary to bring math into the world. It just
made it happen a few years sooner.

Suppose there was a drug that made you more efficient at work,
so you could take off an hour earlier and ride your bike or go home
and torment your cat. And it didn't really have any side effects.
Would you take it? (It's called coffee, but let's pretend it's a black
market pill instead.) Suppose the guy in the next office was taking
it and instead of knocking off at 4 pm, he worked a little longer and
got more done, and you worried that you'd look bad and lose your
job if you couldn't keep up. (Let's pretend the job was worth
keeping.)
Would you take it then?

Suppose you were a mathematician and you knew that some person
(not Erdos, who didn't take permanent jobs) was working an extra
hour or two a day and was more productive, so he'd beat you in
any job hunt. Would you work a little harder? Lots of people do that.
What if you knew he was working the same amount but getting more
done because he was getting speed from Paul Erdos on the side?
Would you feel compelled to ask Erdos for some spare greenies
so you didn't have to leave the field?

The Erdos story is about a person whose drug use enables him
to achieve worldly success (within the very limited unworldly world
of math) in a competitive field. If it had been anyone other than
Erdos,
who didn't seek a normal job, it would inevitably mean that his
success came at someone else's expense.

The same incentives that spur doping are the ones that explain
why Americans work too many hours and have the shortest
vacations in the developed world. [gwhite-bait] It's all Mises and
Schumpeter's fault. I'm not arguing in favor of doping. I'd like a
longer vacation, too. Or even to take the one I supposedly have.

Ben
RBR Self-Medicator

Ryan Cousineau said:

I think mathematics is an absolute good, and increasing the amount or
quality of knowledge in the field is a laudable goal. Faster racing does
not have similar benefits. I doubt it's even more entertaining.

I have virtually no ambiguity about drug use in sport: I think it's a
bad idea, and I support the principle that it should be eliminated.

<snip>

Dumbass -

If illegal drug use cannot be eliminated in a culture at large, how can
it be eliminated in sport?

Consider that, in the culture at large, there are much stiffer
penalties (jail time) than in sport (bans from competition).

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Ryan Cousineau said:

I think mathematics is an absolute good,

Dumbass -

That's not completely true. Knowledge and technology can be used for
good, evil or neither.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

I actually solved an Erdos problem. First, I solved it, then I found
that he had posed it in one of his books -- I would never work for him.

-ilan

On Jan 26, 5:33 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Miserable moment indeed, but he's not exactly a psychological fortress
there, allowing that crash to end his career.

Perhaps. Do you discount the possibility that the hip fracture had
physical effects even after he returned to racing?I half agree here. Even Erik Dekker never seemed to quite get back

to the same level after breaking his leg; although Dekker was older.
Beloki did seem less mentally tough though.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps, but Erdos did a lot of drugs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From:
http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2003/06/29/drugs_and_math.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Like all of Erdos's friends, Graham was concerned about his
drug-taking. In 1979, Graham bet Erdos $500 that he couldn't stop
taking amphetamines for a month. Erdos accepted the challenge, and went
cold turkey for thirty days. After Graham paid up--and wrote the $500
off as a business expense--Erdos said, "You've showed me I'm not an
addict. But I didn't get any work done. I'd get up in the morning and
stare at a blank piece of paper. I'd have no ideas, just like an
ordinary person. You've set mathematics back a month." He promptly
resumed taking pills, and mathematics was the better for it.

Oh, I know all about that. I got the quote from this Slate article:

Quoted message said:

http://www.slate.com/id/2118315

Quoted message said:

Which quotes the same anecdote.

Quoted message said:

I think mathematics is an absolute good, and increasing the amount or
quality of knowledge in the field is a laudable goal. Faster racing does
not have similar benefits. I doubt it's even more entertaining.

Quoted message said:

I have virtually no ambiguity about drug use in sport: I think it's a
bad idea, and I support the principle that it should be eliminated.

Quoted message said:

I have never taken any drug in the amphetamine family. I've never
inhaled. The strongest thing I've ever taken is Rum. Sweeet rum...my
last drink was a week or so ago. It's all a blur to me, now.Dumbass,

I wish it was that simple, but it isn't. Erdos was a great
mathematician,
but if he had quit speed and math (first of all, he probably could have
kept doing math if he broke the addiction) someone else would
eventually have come along and solved the same problems. So it's
not like the speed is necessary to bring math into the world. It just
made it happen a few years sooner.

Suppose there was a drug that made you more efficient at work,
so you could take off an hour earlier and ride your bike or go home
and torment your cat. And it didn't really have any side effects.
Would you take it? (It's called coffee, but let's pretend it's a black
market pill instead.) Suppose the guy in the next office was taking
it and instead of knocking off at 4 pm, he worked a little longer and
got more done, and you worried that you'd look bad and lose your
job if you couldn't keep up. (Let's pretend the job was worth
keeping.)
Would you take it then?

Suppose you were a mathematician and you knew that some person
(not Erdos, who didn't take permanent jobs) was working an extra
hour or two a day and was more productive, so he'd beat you in
any job hunt. Would you work a little harder? Lots of people do that.
What if you knew he was working the same amount but getting more
done because he was getting speed from Paul Erdos on the side?
Would you feel compelled to ask Erdos for some spare greenies
so you didn't have to leave the field?

The Erdos story is about a person whose drug use enables him
to achieve worldly success (within the very limited unworldly world
of math) in a competitive field. If it had been anyone other than
Erdos,
who didn't seek a normal job, it would inevitably mean that his
success came at someone else's expense.

The same incentives that spur doping are the ones that explain
why Americans work too many hours and have the shortest
vacations in the developed world. [gwhite-bait] It's all Mises and
Schumpeter's fault. I'm not arguing in favor of doping. I'd like a
longer vacation, too. Or even to take the one I supposedly have.

Ben
RBR Self-Medicator

ilan said:

I actually solved an Erdos problem.

I should state that I have *never* tested positive in my mathematical
career.

-ilan

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

I think mathematics is an absolute good,

Dumbass -

That's not completely true. Knowledge and technology can be used for
good, evil or neither.

I think increasing the sum of human knowledge is an absolute good. If
this an axiomatic (or nearly so) statement about the value of knowledge,
then so be it, but I think the causative value of knowledge in helping
us live longer, more prosperous lives with many more distracting Usenet
newsgroups than our forefathers had access to is incontrovertible, and
greatly overwhelms the ill effects brought on by technology.

To jump to a nice reductive comparison, smallpox vaccinations have
lengthened many more lives than a-bombs have cut short.

I am of course much more vexed by specific applications of technology.
For example, it's clear that box-cutter knives and ammonia fertilizer
are far too dangerous to be left in the hands of just anyone. And those
sharpie marker pens, too: kids use them for graffiti tagging.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

I think mathematics is an absolute good, and increasing the amount or
quality of knowledge in the field is a laudable goal. Faster racing does
not have similar benefits. I doubt it's even more entertaining.

I have virtually no ambiguity about drug use in sport: I think it's a
bad idea, and I support the principle that it should be eliminated.

<snip>

Dumbass -

If illegal drug use cannot be eliminated in a culture at large, how can
it be eliminated in sport?

Sport is smaller than culture.

Quoted message said:

Consider that, in the culture at large, there are much stiffer
penalties (jail time) than in sport (bans from competition).

The average caught pot smoker faces less sanction than the average
caught Sudafed-using athlete. Or whatever your favourite example of an
OTC medication that can cause a positive.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[Beloki]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Quoted message said:

Perhaps, but Erdos did a lot of drugs.

Quoted message said:

From:

http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2003/06/29/drugs_and_math.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Like all of Erdos's friends, Graham was concerned about his
drug-taking. In 1979, Graham bet Erdos $500 that he couldn't stop
taking amphetamines for a month.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, I know all about that. I got the quote from this Slate article:

http://www.slate.com/id/2118315

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Which quotes the same anecdote.

I think mathematics is an absolute good, and increasing the amount or
quality of knowledge in the field is a laudable goal. Faster racing does
not have similar benefits. I doubt it's even more entertaining.

I have virtually no ambiguity about drug use in sport: I think it's a
bad idea, and I support the principle that it should be eliminated.

Dumbass,

I wish it was that simple, but it isn't. Erdos was a great
mathematician,
but if he had quit speed and math (first of all, he probably could have
kept doing math if he broke the addiction) someone else would
eventually have come along and solved the same problems. So it's
not like the speed is necessary to bring math into the world. It just
made it happen a few years sooner.

There's a fair argument to be made that the list of top-tier
mathematicians of the 20th century goes like this:

1) Erdos
2) Ramanujan

Erdos was the Merckx of math, but also the Cal Ripken. Ramanujan died
young. Erdos was productive for years beyond what is normal in the field.

Quoted message said:

Suppose there was a drug that made you more efficient at work,
so you could take off an hour earlier and ride your bike or go home
and torment your cat. And it didn't really have any side effects.
Would you take it? (It's called coffee, but let's pretend it's a black
market pill instead.) Suppose the guy in the next office was taking
it and instead of knocking off at 4 pm, he worked a little longer and
got more done, and you worried that you'd look bad and lose your
job if you couldn't keep up. (Let's pretend the job was worth
keeping.)
Would you take it then?

My cat is dead, and thank you for bringing up that painful memory.

I torment my dog now. 🙂

Let's look at the societal benefit. Assuming I'm not some useless
parasite in a useless parasitic organization (spammer, mafia accountant,
gangbanger, sociologist, etc.) then my contribution and productivity are
a net benefit to society. Society will be a little bit happier and
healthier if my department or organization or sector is a little more
productive.

Quoted message said:

Suppose you were a mathematician and you knew that some person
(not Erdos, who didn't take permanent jobs) was working an extra
hour or two a day and was more productive, so he'd beat you in
any job hunt. Would you work a little harder? Lots of people do that.
What if you knew he was working the same amount but getting more
done because he was getting speed from Paul Erdos on the side?
Would you feel compelled to ask Erdos for some spare greenies
so you didn't have to leave the field?

Isn't a better question whether I am good enough to stay a
mathematician? Comparative advantage is real.

The fact is, every one of us (or virtually every one of us) is locked
out of lucrative jobs by virtue of our inability to do them as well as
the top performers.

If there were just a few million people in the world who were all just a
few notches dumber or lazier, I would have a top-level IT admin job. Or
be a programmer. Or whatever.

Is it fair that some people drink coffee?

A certain class of thinkers spend a lot of time worrying about those
"left behind" (not "Left Behind"😉 in the economic sense, and chat
knowingly about capitalism moving towards greater meritocracy but also a
more "winner take all" system (this happens for several reasons).

Coffee (and maybe Adderall) can alter who actually makes it to the inner
circle, but note that if you assume only the best X people will be able
to get a particular job, and some Joe vaults into that job pool by
virtue of magic-pill use, then the net effect is that the job pool
becomes, in total, more productive than if it was entirely drug-free.

Quoted message said:

The Erdos story is about a person whose drug use enables him
to achieve worldly success (within the very limited unworldly world
of math) in a competitive field. If it had been anyone other than
Erdos,
who didn't seek a normal job, it would inevitably mean that his
success came at someone else's expense.

Even so, I have to believe that while Erdos very much managed to create
his own version of a career and a life outside of the tenure track, he
seemingly did so in a way that allowed him to maximally focus his
attention on mathematics.

It also points out that Erdos probably advanced the field of mathematics
quite considerably. One might point out that while Erdos may or may not
have taken someone's job, he also greatly advanced the field of
mathematics, which is presumably the absolute goal of math.

Moreover, he was the network effect ne plus ultra. He collaborated so
much that he probably made other mathematicians more productive than
they would have been without Erdos.

Furthermore, he probably was the site-effect-free little black pill: if
you were a top mathematician who was not collaborating with Erdos, you
were almost certainly at a competitive disadvantage to the ones who
were. I imagine there was some non-trivial competition for the attention
of Erdos.

I don't know if this inversion makes any sense, but what the hell, it's
Usenet: I drink coffee, doesn't that deprive the marginal worker of the
opportunity to drink that same coffee, and thus reap the rewards of
enhanced productivity?

Quoted message said:

The same incentives that spur doping are the ones that explain
why Americans work too many hours and have the shortest
vacations in the developed world. [gwhite-bait] It's all Mises and
Schumpeter's fault. I'm not arguing in favor of doping. I'd like a
longer vacation, too. Or even to take the one I supposedly have.

I wouldn't know about that. I get paid enough to support my modest
drinking and cycling problems, plus I get five weeks of vacation a year.

Obserious: coffee is the difference between me staying awake or sleeping
through afternoon meetings. I'm not saying it saved my job, but it sure
saved my reputation as a person able to stay awake through meetings.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kurgan Gringioni said:

On Jan 25, 7:20 pm, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think mathematics is an absolute good,

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

Quoted message said:

That's not completely true. Knowledge and technology can be used for
good, evil or neither.I think increasing the sum of human knowledge is an absolute good.

Dumbass -

Example: If the Nazis would've gotten their nuclear technology in order
a few years before the Americans. Knowledge increasing at a faster rate
= absolute good. Not.

Technology/knowledge in and of itself has no moral value. The morality
comes in how technology/knowledge is applied.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Technology/knowledge in and of itself has no moral value. The morality
comes in how technology/knowledge is applied.

There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.
Benjamin Franklin

ilan said:

I should state that I have *never* tested positive in my mathematical
career.

Do mathematicians have pets ?

Ryan Cousineau said:

Obserious: coffee is the difference between me staying awake or sleeping
through afternoon meetings. I'm not saying it saved my job, but it sure
saved my reputation as a person able to stay awake through meetings.

Perhaps if you dropped the LIVEDRUNK lifestyle...

Anyway if you want to get promoted you should take a diet pill and a
sudafed with a Red Bull before your afternoon meeting.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Donald Munro said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Technology/knowledge in and of itself has no moral value. The morality
comes in how technology/knowledge is applied.

There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.
Benjamin Franklin

I think it was the Earl of Oxford.

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Donald Munro said:

ilan said:

I should state that I have *never* tested positive in my mathematical
career.

Do mathematicians have pets ?

Yes. My dog is named Cauchy. He leaves a residue at every pole.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Donald Munro said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Technology/knowledge in and of itself has no moral value. The
morality comes in how technology/knowledge is applied.

There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.
Benjamin Franklin

I think it was the Earl of Oxford.

Benjamin Franklin was the Earl of Oxford. If he said everything it
stands to reason he was everybody as well.

--
Bill Asher