Basso - riding foolishly?

Merckx and Hinault rode much more foolishly.

Mark VandenBerghe

"Jim Burlant" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Seems to me that someone needs to remind Ivan Basso that, this far into
the Giro, Basso's tactics need to change slightly. What am I talking
about?

Today's stage is a case in point. He enters today's stage over 5
minutes ahead of Gutierrez, and more than 9 minutes up on Salvodelli
and Simoni. At that point, he simply needs to not let Gutierrez go
anywhere, and anyone else should be given a free pass to go up the road
for at least a minute. So what if Simoni or Salvodelli gain 3 minutes?
They'd still be over 6 minutes down!

I know, I know - maybe he's "paranoid" because he all-too-vividly
recalls last year's Giro, where stomach problems made him cough up 40
minutes on a single stage and he just wants to add that much more
cushion. But at this point in the Giro, with more mountain stages left
I would think he needs to be more concerned about saving energy than
putting more time into guys who can't possibly make up their gaps.

Remember the '99, '00, and '02 Tours? Or remember the entirety of the
Indurain era? Anyone who wasn't an immediate GC threat was allowed up
the road once Lance or Miguel established a firm lead, and anyeone else
was followed but Lance wasn't chasing any more time gains than he
needed to. IMO - especially if Basso doesn't want to use up his TdF
in this Giro - Basso needs to be reminded of this. Bjarne, are you
listening? :-)

Let the flame wars begin!

Jim Burlant

True, but the 70's and '80's were very different from today because the
gap between the best and the rest was somewhat greater then than it is
today. Basso has more opponents to worry about than Merckx or Hinault
and would do well to save his strength by being wiser with his energy
expenditures.

Jim Burlant said:

True, but the 70's and '80's were very different from today because the
gap between the best and the rest was somewhat greater then than it is
today. Basso has more opponents to worry about than Merckx or Hinault
and would do well to save his strength by being wiser with his energy
expenditures.

Basso hasn't won a grand tour yet. He has something to prove -
maybe he's trying to show up Davide Tosi for saying Basso would
never win anything. He also hasn't won the Giro yet either. It looks
solid, but he shouldn't yet slack off to preserve himself for the Tour.
Basso seems like the kind of rider who knows where his limits
are, and is riding as hard as he can within them. (As opposed
to guys who go on suicide missions and blow up gloriously.)

Even the early LANCE tried to win almost every mountain
stage. After 2003, it became a lot more obvious that he couldn't,
and he rode defensively more often; late Armstrong colors your
perception of his strategy. But at least until then, he always
tried to shred the group that he was in at the base of the climb,
whether or not someone was up the road.

Now, you could argue that Bruyneel used to let breaks go, so that
even though LANCE forced the pace in his group on the climb,
a Spanish guy (or Boogerd) would be up the road and win the stage.
That hasn't happened in this Giro. But that is a question about
whether Riis should conserve CSC's resources, not about whether
Basso should conserve his personal energy.

How long have you been following cycling (following only the Tour does
not count)?

When a guy feels strong, there is never a good reason to sit in the
group when there is a chance for a stage win. This is especially true
when you are not dragging anyone with you. What exactly are you saying
he should have done anyway? This stage was important to prove to the
rest of the world (those that would challenge him in the Tour) that he
can win at the front with a solo stage win. At least one seasoned pro
said recently that Basso can only ride strong in the mountains when
someone (Armstrong is who he implied) is pacing him. I laughed (because
I disagreed) and now Basso has proved that he is dangerous over any
terrain (especially considering every race he has won in the last 12
months). I think he also wanted to put some finishing touches on his
form. He raced superbly in the last Giro and Tour and he probably feels
that he would like to repeat the same efforts as last year (excluding
the stomach problem) when he won an ITT and a mountain stage in the
last week. Riis is doing his training now (no more Checchini for the
CSC squad). It is very likely he was asked / ordered to attack. Even if
he had not done similar efforts last year it still gives the advantage
of evaluating his climbing velocity in race conditions.

My exact sentiments; Basso IS that strong. And he's not forcing
anything.

Quoted message said:

Even the early LANCE tried to win almost every mountain
stage. After 2003, it became a lot more obvious that he couldn't,
and he rode defensively more often; late Armstrong colors your
perception of his strategy. But at least until then, he always
tried to shred the group that he was in at the base of the climb,
whether or not someone was up the road.

Disagree with you here. Lance's overally strategy was to dominate the
first TT and show everyone who was boss on the 1st mountain stage, but
once he got a good-sized GC gap (5 or more minutes on 2nd place) he
settled down and rode more defensively.

In '99 and '2000 (which is what I'm assuming you're referring to as
"early Lance"😉 he "only" won the first mountain stage each time. And
actually, come to think of it, he didn't win Hautacam in 2000. Look at
the videos if you don't believe me; look at how Alpe d'Huez played out
in '99 to name one example. You'll see that he did what I'm advocating
Basso do for the remaining mountain stages: he let the guys 10 and 15
minutes down attack and gain 30 seconds here and there, but if 2nd and
3rd overall went anywhere he was on them like glue. And towards the
end of the stage (he might have set a high enough tempo to ensure
nobody could get away from him. But he wasn't attacking to try and
gain more time once he was more than 5 minutes up on anyone; at that
point it was up to the guys lower down the classification than him to
try (and fail) to get rid of him.

2001, you ask? Remember, entering the mountains he was approximiately
30 (!!) minutes down on Simon, so the best strategy for winning was to
make sure Lance won the stages because he had to get the jersey. And
it was only after one of the Pyrennean stages that he finally had
enough time on Ullrich to start riding defensively.

2002 - Was not vintage Armstrong IMO; Heras almost rode him off his
wheel going up to La Mongie! But Lance wasn't trying to drop anyone
every chance he got once his lead got over 5 minutes. Ventoux, you
say? Well, Lance wasn't more than 2 or 3 minutes up on Beloki on
overall time when he decided to show him who was boss. And even then,
once his overall lead was 5 or more minutes, he didn't try to
repeatedly drop anyone.

2003 - 2005 is the alleged "later" Armstrong that allegedly clouded my
judgment and we're both in agreement there.

The point I was trying to make is that once you've got a lead that goes
beyond a certain threshold your tactic needs to change. If you're only
up 1 or 2 minutes, by all means you need to add to that. But once
you're up 5 minutes on second place and 3rd place is over 9 minutes
down, you don't need to waste energy chasing after guys who are 15
minutes down (as is Piepoli) if he's attacking for the stage win.
Watching Indurain win his Tours underscores this point, and Basso would
do well to follow this example.

Quoted message said:

How long have you been following cycling (following only the Tour does
not count)?

I have been following cycling (ALL the races, not just the TdF) for
going on what...15 years now. My critique of Basso comes from having
watched the true masters of the modern TdF (Indurain, Armstrong) and
how they went about winning.

I fully agree Basso is head-and-shoulders above anyone else in this
Giro. To answer your questions:

Quoted message said:

When a guy feels strong, there is never a good reason to sit in the
group when there is a chance for a stage win.

Agreed that wins don't make themselves available that often, but
there's the bigger picture. Namely, you only have so much in the way
of energy reserves and the end goal for Basso is to presumably finish
in Milan with the Pink jersey. For all we know he may look unbeatable
and certainly I believe this is his giro to lose; short of getting sick
or having an unfortunate incident nobody in this race will beat him.
But, hypothetically - you mean it's not possible that he dug a little
too deep into the well and as a result left himself just a little too
depleted for the remaining mountain stages? I mean, I'm realistic
enough to know that this is probably not the case, but it is possible.

Quoted message said:

What exactly are you saying he should have done anyway?

To answer your question, look how Indurain rode in his Tours once he
established a big lead, and look at Armstrong on Alpe d'Huez in '99 and
compare that to today's ride by Basso. When someone 18 minutes down
(Piepoli) attacks you DON'T worry about him! Even if he gains 5
minutes he'll still be 13 minutes down! What Basso should be doing?
Like Indurain and Armstrong - who "only" managed to win 14 grand tours
between them so I would assume they know a thing or two - let the
non-GC threats go up the road, and only worry about making sure your
main opponents don't gain too much time on you. And if need be, with 4
or 5 km to go you start riding at a tempo that's just high enough to
discourage anyone from attacking.

Despite your feeling that Basso shomehow had this need to show the rest
of the world a thing or two, the reality is that, while his tactics
today looked impressive, they're unnecessary to anyone except the fans
who think they know what he needs to show them. The end goal is, as I
said earlier, getting to Milano in the Maglia Rosa, and once your lead
is big enough you do that by conserving energy. It doesn't sound like
much, but if he doesn't go after the Piepoli's of the world hesaves
himself 3 - 5 km of full-out climbing each mountain stage. 15 minutes
doesn't sound like a whole lot...but 15 minutes in one stage, 20
minutes in another...over a 3-week race it adds up. Read what any
rider - from he maillot jaune to the lanterne rouge - has to say about
a grand tour and they'll tell you how vital it is to conserve energy
and how wasting energy just once each stage will have a cumulative
effect after 2 - 3 weeks.

This Giro still has 3 more brutally tough stages out of the remaining
5, and all I'm saying is that Basso did a lot more today than he needed
to.

Quoted message said:

This stage was important to prove to the
rest of the world (those that would challenge him in the Tour) that he
can win at the front with a solo stage win.

You mean to say that Ivan is SO worried about others' perceptions of
him that he would change his plans to stick it up their ass? Puh-leez!

Quoted message said:

Riis is doing his training now (no more Checchini for the
CSC squad). It is very likely he was asked / ordered to attack. Even if
he had not done similar efforts last year it still gives the advantage
of evaluating his climbing velocity in race conditions.

Riis is a master tactician IMO; I'd be surprised if Riis told him to
get more time this late in the game. If Basso's lead were only 2 or 3
minutes by all means I'd give him the green light. But when he's
chasing guys 18 minutes down...that's just crazy.

All I'm saying - make sure places 2 and 3 don't go so far up the road
you can't bring 'em back...and otherwise don't waste energy you don't
need to waste. It worked for Indurain and Armstrong, it can work for
Basso.

Jim Burlant

"Jim Burlant" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Seems to me that someone needs to remind Ivan Basso that, this far into
the Giro, Basso's tactics need to change slightly. What am I talking
about?

Today's stage is a case in point. He enters today's stage over 5
minutes ahead of Gutierrez, and more than 9 minutes up on Salvodelli
and Simoni. At that point, he simply needs to not let Gutierrez go
anywhere, and anyone else should be given a free pass to go up the road
for at least a minute. So what if Simoni or Salvodelli gain 3 minutes?
They'd still be over 6 minutes down!

I know, I know - maybe he's "paranoid" because he all-too-vividly
recalls last year's Giro, where stomach problems made him cough up 40
minutes on a single stage and he just wants to add that much more
cushion. But at this point in the Giro, with more mountain stages left
I would think he needs to be more concerned about saving energy than
putting more time into guys who can't possibly make up their gaps.

Remember the '99, '00, and '02 Tours? Or remember the entirety of the
Indurain era? Anyone who wasn't an immediate GC threat was allowed up
the road once Lance or Miguel established a firm lead, and anyeone else
was followed but Lance wasn't chasing any more time gains than he
needed to. IMO - especially if Basso doesn't want to use up his TdF
in this Giro - Basso needs to be reminded of this. Bjarne, are you
listening? :-)

Let the flame wars begin!

Jim Burlant

First, 5 minutes at this Giro with the incredibly hard stages coming up is
not equal to 5 minutes at the Tour where it's easier to limit one's loses.

Second, Basso rode very controlled. It's not like he attacked Piepoli or
even Gutierrez, he just sucked Pipo's wheel, as evidenced by the short delay
between Basso and 'il buffalo".

Third, I remember 99 differently. Sounds like Basso took a page out of
Armstrong's playbook from his first GT win. Armstrong had even more time on
his second place at the start of the stage to Alpe d'Huez (summit finish),
and rather than conserve his strength by sucking Olano's wheel, he took off
down the road.

GC after Stage 9
1. Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal 39.31.07
2. Abraham Olano (Spa) ONCE-Deutsche Bank 6.03
3. Christophe Moreau (Fra) Festina 7.44

Results of stage 10 Sestrières - L'Alpe d'Huez-
1. Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) Telekom 6.42.31
2. Pavel Tonkov (Rus) Mapei-Quick Step 0.21
3. Fernando Escartin (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 0.25
4. Alex Zülle (Swi) Banesto
0.25

5. Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal 0.25

6. Richard Virenque (Fra) Team Polti 0.25
7. Laurent Dufaux (Swi) Saeco-Cannondale 0.25
8. Kurt Van de Wouwer (Bel) Lotto-Mobistar 0.25
9. Manuel Beltran (Spa) Banesto 0.32
10. Carlos Contreras (Col) Kelme-Costa Blanca 0.49
11. Stéphane Heulot (Fra) La Française des Jeux 1.43

12. Abraham Olano (Spa) ONCE-Deutsche Bank 2.04

26. Christophe Moreau (Fra) Festina 5.32

Armstrong also had almost 5 minutes on Beloki at the start of stage 16 2002,
and he still attacked Beloki and Rumsas rather than just sucking his wheel
on the way to La Plagne.

"trg" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Jim Burlant" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Seems to me that someone needs to remind Ivan Basso that, this far into
the Giro, Basso's tactics need to change slightly. What am I talking
about?

Today's stage is a case in point. He enters today's stage over 5
minutes ahead of Gutierrez, and more than 9 minutes up on Salvodelli
and Simoni. At that point, he simply needs to not let Gutierrez go
anywhere, and anyone else should be given a free pass to go up the road
for at least a minute. So what if Simoni or Salvodelli gain 3 minutes?
They'd still be over 6 minutes down!

I know, I know - maybe he's "paranoid" because he all-too-vividly
recalls last year's Giro, where stomach problems made him cough up 40
minutes on a single stage and he just wants to add that much more
cushion. But at this point in the Giro, with more mountain stages left
I would think he needs to be more concerned about saving energy than
putting more time into guys who can't possibly make up their gaps.

Remember the '99, '00, and '02 Tours? Or remember the entirety of the
Indurain era? Anyone who wasn't an immediate GC threat was allowed up
the road once Lance or Miguel established a firm lead, and anyeone else
was followed but Lance wasn't chasing any more time gains than he
needed to. IMO - especially if Basso doesn't want to use up his TdF
in this Giro - Basso needs to be reminded of this. Bjarne, are you
listening? :-)

Let the flame wars begin!

Jim Burlant

First, 5 minutes at this Giro with the incredibly hard stages coming up is
not equal to 5 minutes at the Tour where it's easier to limit one's loses.

Second, Basso rode very controlled. It's not like he attacked Piepoli or
even Gutierrez, he just sucked Pipo's wheel, as evidenced by the short
delay between Basso and 'il buffalo".

Third, I remember 99 differently. Sounds like Basso took a page out of
Armstrong's playbook from his first GT win. Armstrong had even more time
on his second place at the start of the stage to Alpe d'Huez (summit
finish), and rather than conserve his strength by sucking Olano's wheel,
he took off down the road.

GC after Stage 9
1. Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal 39.31.07
2. Abraham Olano (Spa) ONCE-Deutsche Bank 6.03
3. Christophe Moreau (Fra) Festina 7.44

Results of stage 10 Sestrières - L'Alpe d'Huez-
1. Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) Telekom 6.42.31
2. Pavel Tonkov (Rus) Mapei-Quick Step 0.21
3. Fernando Escartin (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 0.25
4. Alex Zülle (Swi) Banesto 0.25

5. Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal 0.25

6. Richard Virenque (Fra) Team Polti 0.25
7. Laurent Dufaux (Swi) Saeco-Cannondale 0.25
8. Kurt Van de Wouwer (Bel) Lotto-Mobistar 0.25
9. Manuel Beltran (Spa) Banesto 0.32
10. Carlos Contreras (Col) Kelme-Costa Blanca 0.49
11. Stéphane Heulot (Fra) La Française des Jeux 1.43

12. Abraham Olano (Spa) ONCE-Deutsche Bank 2.04

26. Christophe Moreau (Fra) Festina 5.32

Armstrong also had almost 5 minutes on Beloki at the start of stage 16
2002, and he still attacked Beloki and Rumsas rather than just sucking
his wheel on the way to La Plagne.

Forgot to show-
1 Michael Boogerd (Ned) Rabobank 5.48.29 (30.90
km/h)
2 Carlos Sastre (Spa) CSC-Tiscali 1.25
3 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
4 Joseba Beloki (Spa) ONCE-Eroski 2.02
5 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Lampre Daikin

Quoted message said:

First, 5 minutes at this Giro with the incredibly hard stages coming up is
not equal to 5 minutes at the Tour where it's easier to limit one's loses.

All the more reason for him NOT to go too deep into the well. If you've
dug too deep into the well on previous stages, those seconds you worked
so hard to gain will turn into 15 and 20-minute losses; losses that
could be avoided by not overdoing it when there's no need to.

Quoted message said:

Second, Basso rode very controlled. It's not like he attacked Piepoli or
even Gutierrez, he just sucked Pipo's wheel, as evidenced by the short delay
between Basso and 'il buffalo".

I'll take your word for it because I'm only getting the live feeds on
cyclingnews; my ##$%^@% cable provider doesn't provide OLN :-p

At any rate, why is he even bothering to follow Piepoli in the first
place when he's not even the most remote threat? He simply needs to
sit back with Gutierrez and Simoni, making sure Gutierrez doesn't go
anywhere and if Simoni goes more than 1 minute up the road, then up his
own tempo to make sure he doesn't get more than that one minute. It's
just about limiting the amount of time Basso spends riding at his
threshold.

Quoted message said:

Third, I remember 99 differently. Sounds like Basso took a page out of
Armstrong's playbook from his first GT win. Armstrong had even more time on
his second place at the start of the stage to Alpe d'Huez (summit finish),
and rather than conserve his strength by sucking Olano's wheel, he took off
down the road.

The standings can be deceptive. The video of the '99 Tour tells a
different story than the standings. Olano's greatest weakness in his
career was that he never really was up to snuff in the big mountains;
whether it was the Giro or Tour, he never could hold onto the big boys.
Watch the videos of '99 and you'll see that Olano wasn't anywhere to
be seen when the yello jersey group (still 30-some strong) got to the
base of Alpe d'Huez. Olano lost 2 minutes on that stage due to his own
inability to climb, not because Lance attacked him to gain time. The
video also shows that Lance never initiated ANY attacks on Alpe d'Huez;
he only chased when Zulle or Escartin had a go, and anyone else had
freedom because they weren't a long-term threat.

The only reason he attacked on the Piau-Engaly stage was that Escartin
- a serious GC threat - was more than 3 minutes up the road, and he had
to be contained.

Quoted message said:

Armstrong also had almost 5 minutes on Beloki

You said the magic word: "Almost" 5 minutes is not the same as MORE
than 5 minutes.

in message <[email hidden]>, Jim

Burlant (') said:

Seems to me that someone needs to remind Ivan Basso that, this far into
the Giro, Basso's tactics need to change slightly. What am I talking
about?

Today's stage is a case in point. He enters today's stage over 5
minutes ahead of Gutierrez, and more than 9 minutes up on Salvodelli
and Simoni. At that point, he simply needs to not let Gutierrez go
anywhere, and anyone else should be given a free pass to go up the road
for at least a minute. So what if Simoni or Salvodelli gain 3 minutes?
They'd still be over 6 minutes down!

(i) They've still got two big mountain stages to go
(ii) Basso is vulnerable to infections
(iii) A large part of Basso's dominance is psychological

I don't think he can afford to let anyone serious get away. There's still
time for him to have a mechanical on a climb somewhere, or pick up a
virus, and lose a lot of minutes. Furthermore, people are not trying as
hard as they possibly could because they believe they can't beat Basso.
As soon as they think they possibly could beat Basso, they'll wind it up
a notch. He only has to have one bad half hour, and his lead is gone.

IMHO he's doing exactly the right thing: appearing invincible, while at
the same time protecting the lead he's got.

However I think it's not very likely that he can sustain this level of
effort until the weekend and then go on to win the Tour de France. I'd
love to be wrong.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Error 1109: There is no message for this error

Basso has a deep hatred of Piepoli and wanted to insult him by gifting
him a victory.

Jim Burlant said:

All I'm saying - make sure places 2 and 3 don't go so far up the road
you can't bring 'em back...and otherwise don't waste energy you don't
need to waste. It worked for Indurain and Armstrong, it can work for
Basso.

Basso could certainly do that and still win, but I'm sure he prefers it
doing this way. Today when he went with Piepoli, he didn't look like he
was working that hard (unlike in some of the previous stages). He got a
bit of pacing to the top of the climb, put a bit more time into his
nearest rivals, and was able to hand Piepoli the stage win and be the
nice guy. (He was criticised in the Italian press yesterday because he
dominated stage 16 even if he didn't really have to).

I like his style, as riding defensively is (for me) more boring to
watch than testing the others all the time. Maybe in future tours he'll
peg it back a bit. I also got the impression that Armstrong was riding
within himself in the last couple of Tours, and playing around with the
opposition a little. In 2004, his team was so good that he didn't have
to do a hell of a lot of riding in front anyway!

I also think at this stage of the race, Basso has more reserves than
the rest of his rivals. We'll see how he handles the last two mountain
stages, I guess.

Jeff

in message <[email hidden]>, Jim

Burlant (') said:

At any rate, why is he even bothering to follow Piepoli in the first
place when he's not even the most remote threat? He simply needs to
sit back with Gutierrez and Simoni, making sure Gutierrez doesn't go
anywhere and if Simoni goes more than 1 minute up the road, then up his
own tempo to make sure he doesn't get more than that one minute. It's
just about limiting the amount of time Basso spends riding at his
threshold.

I don't think he really did. There was an attack by Pellizotti in the
last kilometre, which broke up Cuapio's rhythm. Gutierrez responded
immediately and took the lead. Basso and Piepoli responded to Gutierrez,
and then the grade started to ease a bit and they gained some distance -
not a lot. Gutierrez only finished 15 seconds down on Piepoli and Basso.

As I saw it Basso was responding to Gutierrez, not to Piepoli; he
deliberately did not contest line honours with Piepoli.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

See one nuclear war, you've seen them all.

"Jim Burlant" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

First, 5 minutes at this Giro with the incredibly hard stages coming up
is
not equal to 5 minutes at the Tour where it's easier to limit one's
loses.

All the more reason for him NOT to go too deep into the well. If you've
dug too deep into the well on previous stages, those seconds you worked
so hard to gain will turn into 15 and 20-minute losses; losses that
could be avoided by not overdoing it when there's no need to.

No, all the more reason to try to pad the lead, especially when you don't
have to go into the red, as Basso clearly didn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Second, Basso rode very controlled. It's not like he attacked Piepoli or
even Gutierrez, he just sucked Pipo's wheel, as evidenced by the short
delay
between Basso and 'il buffalo".

I'll take your word for it because I'm only getting the live feeds on
cyclingnews; my ##$%^@% cable provider doesn't provide OLN :-p

Here's a present for you. RAI3 has a live free video feed during the Giro-
media.rai.it0,,Sport^4292,0.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

At any rate, why is he even bothering to follow Piepoli in the first
place when he's not even the most remote threat? He simply needs to
sit back with Gutierrez and Simoni, making sure Gutierrez doesn't go
anywhere and if Simoni goes more than 1 minute up the road, then up his
own tempo to make sure he doesn't get more than that one minute. It's
just about limiting the amount of time Basso spends riding at his
threshold.

And if tomorrow Basso has a crash or a bonk, he'll kick himself for not
picking up time on his main rival when he had a chance.

If you're a student of Armstrong, then you know above all else, Lance wins
because his power at LT is a bit higher than the competition. The trick is
to ride at a pace that is above the opponents LT, but not your own.
Everything is structured for that That's what Basso gained by sucking
Pipo's wheel but not attacking and not going into his own red zone.
Gutierrez also has to ride the same mountains tomorrow as Basso. Basso was
riding just a bit faster than Gutierrez (in the wheel of Pipo, so probably
not doing more work than Guts), not in his own red zone, thus not really
jeopordizing his reserves for the next stages. However Basso forced
Gutierrez to ride in HIS red zone to try to limit his losses (Gutierrez WAS
showing the price he was paying, definitely dipping deeper into the well.).
As I said, Gutierrez tried to attack, and Basso easily kept on his wheel. It
was pretty obvious that today wouldn't be the day that Guiterriez was going
to make up any time. So if Basso just decided to suck his wheel, Gutz could
have just taken it easy the rest of the way, saving his own strength for the
next days where he'd have another chance. As it was, he had to dig deep
himself.

It also demoralizes Gutierrez. He attacked and Basso was on him. Pipo
countered and Basso then just rode away from Guts on Piepoli's wheel (again
smoothly) . It's a message. "I'm the boss, attack at your own risk."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Third, I remember 99 differently. Sounds like Basso took a page out of
Armstrong's playbook from his first GT win. Armstrong had even more time
on
his second place at the start of the stage to Alpe d'Huez (summit
finish),
and rather than conserve his strength by sucking Olano's wheel, he took
off
down the road.

The standings can be deceptive. The video of the '99 Tour tells a
different story than the standings. Olano's greatest weakness in his
career was that he never really was up to snuff in the big mountains;
whether it was the Giro or Tour, he never could hold onto the big boys.
Watch the videos of '99 and you'll see that Olano wasn't anywhere to
be seen when the yello jersey group (still 30-some strong) got to the
base of Alpe d'Huez. Olano lost 2 minutes on that stage due to his own
inability to climb, not because Lance attacked him to gain time. The
video also shows that Lance never initiated ANY attacks on Alpe d'Huez;
he only chased when Zulle or Escartin had a go, and anyone else had
freedom because they weren't a long-term threat.

Basso did not attack on today's stage

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Armstrong also had almost 5 minutes on Beloki

You said the magic word: "Almost" 5 minutes is not the same as MORE
than 5 minutes.

You're grasping. There was less than a minute difference between Armstrong's
lead and Basso's. And 5 and a half minutes with the Gavia and Mortirola and
another tough day with a summit finish still to come is less secure than 4
and a half minutes with just one non summit finish mountain stage WITH a TT
still to come for Armstrong (where he is clearly the better TTer than
Beloki.)

All I'm saying is that when you've got a chance to take some time and put
your opponent into the red without pushing yourself too much, you do it, as
Basso did.

Agreed w/you on all points. This is as much of a philosophical debate
as anything else. I remember Indurain taking lots of flack in this NG
because of his defensive - albeit completely effective - tactics.
Granted, it doesn't have the panache of aggressive riding but to each
his own, you know? :-)

We'll certainly know for sure by the end of Saturday.

Jim Burlant

Jim Burlant said:

Seems to me that someone needs to remind Ivan Basso that, this far into
the Giro, Basso's tactics need to change slightly. What am I talking
about?

Today's stage is a case in point. He enters today's stage over 5
minutes ahead of Gutierrez, and more than 9 minutes up on Salvodelli
and Simoni. At that point, he simply needs to not let Gutierrez go
anywhere, and anyone else should be given a free pass to go up the road
for at least a minute. So what if Simoni or Salvodelli gain 3 minutes?
They'd still be over 6 minutes down!

I know, I know - maybe he's "paranoid" because he all-too-vividly
recalls last year's Giro, where stomach problems made him cough up 40
minutes on a single stage and he just wants to add that much more
cushion. But at this point in the Giro, with more mountain stages left
I would think he needs to be more concerned about saving energy than
putting more time into guys who can't possibly make up their gaps.

Remember the '99, '00, and '02 Tours? Or remember the entirety of the
Indurain era? Anyone who wasn't an immediate GC threat was allowed up
the road once Lance or Miguel established a firm lead, and anyeone else
was followed but Lance wasn't chasing any more time gains than he
needed to. IMO - especially if Basso doesn't want to use up his TdF
in this Giro - Basso needs to be reminded of this. Bjarne, are you
listening? :-)

Needs reminded of what, exactly? That he's leading the race, a grand tour, of
his own country no less.

Why should he treat this like a warm up for the TdF?

Ron

"Geraard Spergen" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Basso has a deep hatred of Piepoli and wanted to insult him by gifting him
a victory.

Yes, in fact in an interview on RAI after the stage, Basso refered to
Piepoli as "Pipolina', a nickname that he hates because it refers to the
small size of a bodily feature.

Quoted message said:

And if tomorrow Basso has a crash or a bonk, he'll kick himself for not
picking up time on his main rival when he had a chance.

While making sure to eat enough is paramount (I believe in yesterday's
stage he was sucking a gel packet with barely 3 km left in the stage),
it also helps to prevent bonks when you don't expend unnecessary energy
by following guys 18 minutes down on GC when they counterattack and
you've already

And if he were to bonk, I guarantee he'd lose a LOT more than the 30 or
40 seconds he might have gained.

Quoted message said:

If you're a student of Armstrong, then you know above all else, Lance wins
because his power at LT is a bit higher than the competition.

Which is about physiology, not tactics. I'm talking tactics.

Quoted message said:

The trick is
to ride at a pace that is above the opponents LT, but not your own.

The trick is to make sure you do what you have to in order to make sure
your opponents don't gain a huge amount on you. Do we know for a fact
that Basso didn't have to dig into his red zone to stay with Piepoli?
While it certainly sounds like (from all accounts) that Basso was in
control and never under pressure, for all either of us knows Basso was
bluffing and suffering more than he looked to be. Again, it's just a
matter of how deep he really needs to dig when he's got a gap of
greater than 5 minutes and the other podium contenders can't even
attack him?

Quoted message said:

And 5 and a half minutes with the Gavia and Mortirola and
another tough day with a summit finish still to come is less secure than 4
and a half minutes with just one non summit finish mountain stage WITH a TT
still to come for Armstrong (where he is clearly the better TTer than
Beloki.)

True, the races are different...but come on. Given how Basso's been
riding relative to Gutz and Simoni, does he really have reason to fear
that either of them could suddenly find the form to put 5 minutes into
him?