Basso & Fuentes--More Information

in message <[email hidden]>, B.

Lafferty (') said:

http://www.gazzetta.it/Speciali/Tourdefrance/2006/it/Primo_Piano/2006/07_Luglio/04/accuse_basso.shtml

I've struggled though Babelfish's translation of this, but am not greatly
wiser. Could someone who is an Italian speaker post a brief summary?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I can't work yanks out......
;; Why do they frown upon sex yet relish violence?
;; Deep Fried Lettuce

B. Lafferty said:

http://www.gazzetta.it/Speciali/Tourdefrance/2006/it/Primo_Piano/2006/07_Luglio/04/accuse_basso.shtml

Google translates this as....

In dossier never a talk of Ivan with it inquires to it to you, but it is
spoken about coded payments. Labarta during the Turn of Italy says Fuentes:
"You have the first one and the second in classifies". And there is a Swiss
account Low, 28 years, before the exclusion from the Tour. ApMILANO, 4 July
2006 - the Gazette of the Sport has examined the dossier on the base of
which they have been excluded from the Tour de France 13 runners, between
which Ivan Basso, Jan Ullrich, Oscar Sevilla and Francisco Mancebo, let
alone 5 athletes of the Astana- Würth (deprive of the minimal number, the
formation commanded from Alexandre Vinokourov, not been involved directly,
have not been able themselves to line up to the way). E' a document of 38
pages, in which it comes described to the arrange-doping created from the
Eufemiano doctors Fuentes and José Luis Merino Batres. It reassumes the lead
inquiry to Madrid from the section consumption and atmosphere of Civil Guard
who have produced 500 pages of preliminary investigation, beyond to the
arrest of the two doctors and of others three persons between which Manolo
Saiz, d.s of the former Liberty Seguros.

The CITATIONS - In these days on Spanish newspapers they are appeared
various extracted of this dossier, in particular of the wiretaps that have
supported surveyings of the enquirers. During the searchs in the
laboratories of the two doctors they had been found great amounts of dopanti
substances and bags of blood, these last ones indicated with codes that they
have been then decrittati on the base just of the interceptions and controls
intercross to you. Like saying, the name of Ivan Basso has been between
those been involved: in the 38 pages, it appears 5 times, but never for a
talk directed with one of it inquires to you. Neither other members of its
square, the Csc, never are cited. The mesh rose comes pulled in cause in a
telephone talk that happens 14 May, to the 21,46, between Fuentes and José
Ignacio Labarta (also arrested he), d.s of the Comunidad Valenciana, one of
the squares continuations from Eufemiano and the sister, Yolanda, social
doctor of the formation. The two on purpose refer to the stage of the Turn
concluded that day on the Maielletta with the Victoria just of Bottom, using
of varesino a winking tone ("have gained strange, a Low one, Ivan Basso",
say Fuentes. And Labarta: "A sure Ivan Basso"😉. And after to have emphasized
the great test of José Enrique Gutierrez Cataluña, other runner in the orbit
of the gynecologist of the Canarian, that day 3º, and that little diamond
than Michele Scarponi, also followed it from Fuentes, comments he classifies
it general. Labarta: "Well, boy, first and second is sure Low and a sure
Guti (abbreviation of Gutierrez, ndr)". Fuentes: "Caspita". Labarta: "You
have. first and the second". BIRILLO - On the base of this dialogue, the
enquirers establish that Low she is followed from Fuentes. And to this point
they fill up an other case, than one refers to a previous talk. Stavolta is
spoken about the stage of the previous day, that it arrived to Saltara.
Labarta calls Fuentes to the 20,02 of 13 May and emphasizes endured the
great test of the "Bufalo", as in Spain it comes called Gutierrez, that day
4º. And of forehead to what she seems a amazed Fuentes ("Bufalo? "😉
ribadisce the main positions of the arrival: "Savoldelli (2º, ndr), yes, and
after to 16" is arrives Birillo to you with Simoni, to 20" Zapatero
(identified in Scarponi, ndr), to 24" One (Unai Osa, ndr). All much good. I
want to say that all those that they regard to you or that they interest you
of I crawl are in race and also well". That day, to 16" from winner Rik
Verbrugghe they arrived in the Rebellin order, Bottom, Gonchar and exactly
Simoni. Since it comes excluded whichever tie of Rebellin and Gonchar - like
moreover of Savoldelli and Simoni - with Fuentes, "Birillo" could not that
to be the varesino. According to the enquirers it is come therefore to fill
up an ulterior case, that more important. In the third page of the dossier,
in fact, they appear of the numbers and the nicknames with which they came
indicated the bags of blood and plasma (liquid part of the blood) contained
in a discovered frigorifera cell in the laboratory of Eufemiano, used for
the transfusions: and number 2 is associated to the Birillo nickname (l'1
instead is Jan, that she would be Ullrich. In the dossier there are also
telephone calls to Fuentes attributed to its technician, Rudy Pevenage). We
come to the quarter citation: to page 15 it comes brought back a document
that brings the heading of the society Biomedisport Canarias S.A trained
from Eufemiano Fuentes, than on the back contains a list of "collaborators
and participants to the festival that it has place in the May month".
Between the other Ivan Basso, Marcos Serrano, Michele Scarponi, José Enrique
Gutierrez and Jan Ullrich. Civil Guard has thought that for festival of May
the Turn of Italy had to be meant and since the cited runners have taken to
part to the race rose, has found in this an ulterior test of the existing
relation between same and the Fuentes.

PAYMENTS - the fifth citation regards understood it the payments for the
products and the advisings. Not there are explicit connections to Bottom. It
is arrived by hand to the varesino through a written annotation that it
appears in a document (marked from number 91): Birillo: lleva (door) 2 x
plasma; 3x HM (gonadotropina); 10 parches (doilies of testosterone); codigo
cuenta suiza (code Swiss account). These the accusations: Low always
stranger to the sure vicissitude and of being able some has declared itself
to come outside to high head. To he, and its lawyer, the task to remove the
shadows that grow tall from Spain.

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, B.

Lafferty (') said:

http://www.gazzetta.it/Speciali/Tourdefrance/2006/it/Primo_Piano/2006/07_Luglio/04/accuse_basso.shtml

I've struggled though Babelfish's translation of this, but am not greatly
wiser. Could someone who is an Italian speaker post a brief summary?

Ivan is screwed. Fuentes and friend on tape talking about having the #1 and
#2 riders on the Giro podium.

Quoted message said:

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I can't work yanks out......
;; Why do they frown upon sex yet relish violence?
;; Deep Fried Lettuce

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.gazzetta.it/Speciali/Tourdefrance/2006/it/Primo_Piano/2006/07_Luglio/04/accuse_basso.shtml

My translation is:

"Hey Lucy you got some splaining to do"

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty:
Ivan is screwed. Fuentes and friend on tape talking about
having the #1 and #2 riders on the Giro podium.

For the love of god, how is this evidence against Basso? Fuentes says
Basso used. Basso denies it. He said - he said. That's it?! No more
evidence than that? In the USA that fails to meet the burden of proof
and would not even be submitted to a jury. I guess in Spain/France it's
enough. Makes me proud to be an American.

"Razorback" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty:
Ivan is screwed. Fuentes and friend on tape talking about
having the #1 and #2 riders on the Giro podium.

For the love of god, how is this evidence against Basso? Fuentes says
Basso used. Basso denies it. He said - he said. That's it?!

It all goes to the cumulative weight of the evidence.

Quoted message said:

No more
evidence than that? In the USA that fails to meet the burden of proof
and would not even be submitted to a jury.

Which state(s) do you practice law in?

Quoted message said:

I guess in Spain/France it's
enough. Makes me proud to be an American.

You do not give credit to France and Spain having functional legal systems.
As an American, are you proud of Guantanamo and the CIA black holes?

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

"Razorback" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty:
Ivan is screwed. Fuentes and friend on tape talking about
having the #1 and #2 riders on the Giro podium.

For the love of god, how is this evidence against Basso? Fuentes says
Basso used. Basso denies it. He said - he said. That's it?!

It all goes to the cumulative weight of the evidence.

Quoted message said:

No more
evidence than that? In the USA that fails to meet the burden of proof
and would not even be submitted to a jury.

Which state(s) do you practice law in?

Quoted message said:

I guess in Spain/France it's
enough. Makes me proud to be an American.

You do not give credit to France and Spain having functional legal systems.
As an American, are you proud of Guantanamo and the CIA black holes?

Quoted message said:

Asking the wrong question. Basso has been dismissed from the team,
not found guility. There is an Armstong clause in his contract. It
is aimed at avoiding the problems Armstrongs sponsors had with him and
his seeking medical advice from Dr. F. The clause prohibits a rider
from seeking outside medical aid.

The only question need to be asked of Basso by the team was whether he
sought outside medical aid. His contract could also require him to
answer and if he refused it would be an admission. He could then be
dismissed from the team presumably immediately.

Due process is a smoke screen.

"Razorback" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty:
Ivan is screwed. Fuentes and friend on tape talking about
having the #1 and #2 riders on the Giro podium.

For the love of god, how is this evidence against Basso? Fuentes says
Basso used. Basso denies it. He said - he said. That's it?! No more
evidence than that? In the USA that fails to meet the burden of proof
and would not even be submitted to a jury. I guess in Spain/France it's
enough. Makes me proud to be an American.

It doesn't have to be submitted to a jury. When UCI established the Pro
Tour part of the application process, for a team to be included in the Pro
Tour, was that the team had to agree with the new doping clause. The clause
is simple with an extremely low burden of proof, something similar to: "if a
rider is named as being involved in any legitimate doping investigation the
team will suspend the rider". Since [censored] flows down hill, the standard Pro
Tour contact signed by each rider also has the clause. ASO, the company
that own the Tour De France & other races, also has a similar view and told
riders & teams that they would exclude any rider/team that was named in a
doping investigation.

As soon as I heard about the clause I thought the UCI, ASO, and the teams
were really smart. It gave them air cover for plausible denial. Even if a
team was involved in systematic doping the riders could be the scapegoats
and team management could tell sponsors "there were a few bad apples."
Individual teams also added another clause to the rider's contract that
restricted the rider's right to seek medical treatment outside of what was
provided by the team. I believe that this was another plausible denial
provision that made the team look good in case a rider was caught. I had
not heard of the clause being invoked until the other day and I am sure that
team managers knew that riders were getting outside treatment.

I know that a lot of people feel that the riders who were suspended for the
TDF got royally screwed on Friday. I agree that they got somewhat screwed
but it was when the Pro Tor provisions went into effect, not on Friday. IMO
they also are not blameless. If the top riders had banded together and
fought the clause they probably could have a clause that protected their
rights and still met cycling's goal of have zero tolerance for doping.
Instead of looking out for other riders best interests the top riders cashed
their bonus checks and signed their endorsement contracts and went along.

The other rider complaint that I don't totally buy into is the "I was
notified on the day before the tour started and didn't have enough time to
defend myself" argument. I believe that the raid happened on May 23rd and
with a few weeks we heard two things; the names of all of the riders thought
to be involved & ASO saying that they were going to try to talk to the
Spanish authorities before the tour to get whatever information was
available. If ASO believe there was a legitimate belief that a rider was
involved they were not going to let that rider start the TDF.

If I was Jan, Basso, etc, and was innocent, I would have grabbed my attorney
and headed to Spain to clear my name when before the start of the tour.
They could have submitted DNA samples, financial records, travel schedules
and whatever else was necessary to convince the authorities that there was a
mistake and that another rider must have had a dog named Brillo or was the
Son of Rudy.

B. Lafferty said:

"Razorback" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty:
Ivan is screwed. Fuentes and friend on tape talking about
having the #1 and #2 riders on the Giro podium.

For the love of god, how is this evidence against Basso? Fuentes says
Basso used. Basso denies it. He said - he said. That's it?!

It all goes to the cumulative weight of the evidence.

Since you have no more access to the evidence than any other schmuck
that reads cycling news your opinion on the "weight" of the evidence
means exactly nothing - except in your opinion. I'm okay with that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No more
evidence than that? In the USA that fails to meet the burden of proof
and would not even be submitted to a jury.

Which state(s) do you practice law in?

Under your delusion, err, sorry, assumption, a lawyer, any lawyer must
be infallible if they're licensed to practice. Odd then that someone
almost always loses, no?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I guess in Spain/France it's
enough. Makes me proud to be an American.

That's a stupid comment if there ever was one. I, as an American, am
ashamed that the guy that wrote that is an American. I apologize for
his lack of class and mental acumen.

Quoted message said:

You do not give credit to France and Spain having functional legal systems.
As an American, are you proud of Guantanamo and the CIA black holes?

I just apologized for one stupid American's comment, please don't make
me apologize for you too.

R

B. Lafferty said:

Ivan is screwed. Fuentes and friend on tape talking about having the #1 and
#2 riders on the Giro podium.

And then there's this part:
Veniamo alla quarta citazione: a pagina 15 viene riportato un documento
che reca l'intestazione della società Biomedisport Canarias S.A.
amministrata da Eufemiano Fuentes, che sul retro contiene una lista di
"collaboratori e partecipanti al festival che ha luogo nel mese di
maggio". Tra gli altri Ivan Basso, Marcos Serrano, Michele Scarponi,
José Enrique Gutierrez e Jan Ullrich.

Roughly:
there's an account of of a document bearing the letterhead of Fuentes'
company Biomdeisport Canarias S.A. which contains a list of
"collaborators and participants in the festival which took place during
the month of May". Among others Ivan Basso, Marcos Serrano, Michele
Scarponi, José Enrique Gutierrez e Jan Ullrich.

Quoted message said:

Asking the wrong question. Basso has been dismissed from the team,
not found guility.

Ummm, are you sure that wasn't "suspended" rather than "dismissed"?
Dismissed *from the Tour*, sure, but I don't think he's dismissed *from
the team* quite yet.

Mark

Quoted message said:

Frank Drackman:

When UCI established the Pro Tour part of the application process, for a team to be
included in the Pro Tour, was that the team had to agree with the new doping clause.
The clause is simple with an extremely low burden of proof, something similar to: "if
a rider is named as being involved in any legitimate doping investigation the team will
suspend the rider". Since [censored] flows down hill, the standard Pro Tour contact signed
by each rider also has the clause. ASO, the company that own the Tour De France &
other races, also has a similar view and told riders & teams that they would exclude
any rider/team that was named in a doping investigation.

So the team MUST agree to this "guilty until proven innocent" doping
clause, but even without that clause, ASO would exclude any rider named
in a doping investigation. First of all, there is nothing voluntary by
the team, since they are forced to sign it. Secondly, it is irrelevant,
since the ASO would ban the rider anyway, if he is named in a doping
investigation. Who determines the "legitimacy" of the doping
investigation? If North Korea says that Hincapie is on EPO, will they
ban him tomorrow?

This rule is ripe for abuse by the underworld. Drop a few leading names
to an authority figure looking to make a name for himself ([censored] Pound
comes to mind), and next thing the leading riders are banned. The 50-1
underdog now has a legitimate shot to win, and the bookie is really
getting a bang for his buck. The TDF's problem switches from doping to
race fixing.

in message <[email hidden]>, B.

Lafferty (') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, B.
Lafferty ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

http://www.gazzetta.it/Speciali/Tourdefrance/2006/it/Primo_Piano/2006/07_Luglio/04/accuse_basso.shtml

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've struggled though Babelfish's translation of this, but am not
greatly wiser. Could someone who is an Italian speaker post a brief
summary?

Ivan is screwed. Fuentes and friend on tape talking about having the
#1 and #2 riders on the Giro podium.

Assuming they're telling the truth. And assuming that Basso was getting
the 'special' treatment. Yeah, I'm clutching at straws. Let me keep
doing it for another week or two.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

The Conservative Party now has the support of a smaller proportion of
the electorate in Scotland than Sinn Fein have in Northern Ireland.

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

The only question need to be asked of Basso by the team was whether he
sought outside medical aid.   His contract could also require him to
answer and if he refused it would be an admission.   He could then be
dismissed from the team presumably immediately.

We don't yet know that Basso /had/ sought outside medical aid. We know
that Fuentes implied that he did, but how many people have you heard
boasting 'oh, yes, the really big guys come to me?'

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; This email may contain confidential or otherwise privileged
;; information, though, quite frankly, if you're not the intended
;; recipient and you've got nothing better to do than read other
;; folks' emails then I'm glad to have brightened up your sad little
;; life a tiny bit.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, B.
Lafferty ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

http://www.gazzetta.it/Speciali/Tourdefrance/2006/it/Primo_Piano/2006/07_Luglio/04/accuse_basso.shtml

I've struggled though Babelfish's translation of this, but am not greatly
wiser. Could someone who is an Italian speaker post a brief summary?

A summary - although I've tried to give accurate translation of the
quoted text in the article.

The dossier used to exclude the riders in the tour was reviewed by the
Gazzetta. The dossier mentions Basso five times. Although no direct
contact between Basso and the good doctors is mentioned.

Taped conversation: Phone conversation between Labarta and Fuentes.
Discussing the stage to Maielletta, Fuentes says in a tongue and cheek
(sardonic?)tone: "Some strange guy won, Basso, Ivan Basso."
Laberta replies: "E certain Ivan Basso." After highlighting the great
performance by Gutierez and the less brilliant finish of Scarponi (two
other riders treated by Fuentes) the discuss the general classification.
Labarta: "Good job, dude, first and second is a certain Basso and a
certain Guti". Fuentes: " Wow" Labarta: "You have..... first and second."

Birillo: On the basis of the above dialogue the investigators conclude
that Basso is also being treated by Fuentes. Based on this conclusion
they are able to determine the meaning of a prior recorded conversation.
Labarta had called Fuentes and again highlights the great preformance
by the "Bufalo." Fuentes seems surprised and Labarta summarizes the
finishing order - "at 16 sec. came Birillo and Simoni" etc. By
excluding the other riders in the Simoni group who are not implicated by
the evidence, the investigators conclude that Birillo refers to Basso.
In the dossier, other documents include names associated with blood bags
- Birillo is no 2. No. 1 is Jan - supposedly Ullrich and evidence of
phone calls from Rudy Pevenage to Fuentes.

Another document with the Biomedisport Canarias S.A. letterhead (a
Fuentes company) has on the back a list of "collaborators and
participants at festival the takes place in the month of May." The list
includes Basso, Serrano, Scarponi, Gutierrrez and Ullrich. The Guardia
Civil believes the May festival is the Giro.

Payments: The fifth citation in the dossire re: Basso is to payments.
The Basso connection is a handwritten notation: "Birillo: lleva (bring
or carry) x plasma, 3 x HM (gonadotropina- no idea what this is in
English; growth hormone?) 10 parches (testosterone patches); codigo
cuenta suiza (swiss bank account no.)

So there you go. The evidence against Basso as summarized by the
Gazzetta reading a summary presented to the race organizers/ UCI or
whoever decided the exclusion.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, B.

Lafferty (') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, B.
Lafferty ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

http://www.gazzetta.it/Speciali/Tourdefrance/2006/it/Primo_Piano/2006/07_Luglio/04/accuse_basso.shtml

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've struggled though Babelfish's translation of this, but am not
greatly wiser. Could someone who is an Italian speaker post a brief
summary?

Ivan is screwed. Fuentes and friend on tape talking about having the
#1 and #2 riders on the Giro podium.

Assuming they're telling the truth. And assuming that Basso was getting
the 'special' treatment. Yeah, I'm clutching at straws. Let me keep
doing it for another week or two.

Dear heaven:

How much proof do people need?

Just off the top of my head: Festina, Millar, Rumsas, the Ferrari case,
the CONI case (implicating cross country skiers, and track and field
stars along with lots of cyclists) the Giro debacle in 2001 (year?) and
now Operation Puerta.

As noted by others, cycling is devolving into a gladiator spectacle.
Although it's probably more along the lines of the world wrestling shows.

Gabe Brovedani

Simon Brooke said:

I've struggled though Babelfish's translation of this, but am not greatly
wiser. Could someone who is an Italian speaker post a brief summary?

Better to use Google's translator.... here is the link for the story
through the translator:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gazzetta.it%2FSpeciali%2FTourdefrance%2F2006%2Fit%2FPrimo_Piano%2F2006%2F07_Luglio%2F04%2Faccuse_basso.shtml&langpair=it%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Tha Preacha Bill said:

Simon Brooke said:

I've struggled though Babelfish's translation of this, but am not
greatly wiser. Could someone who is an Italian speaker post a brief
summary?

Better to use Google's translator.... here is the link for the story
through the translator:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gazzetta.it%2FSpeciali%2FTourdefrance%2F2006%2Fit%2FPrimo_Piano%2F2006%2F07_Luglio%2F04%2Faccuse_basso.shtml&langpair=it%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Er................Check my post from 2 days ago ;-)

Jan