Base building with Ls 3 and 4?

It's a question of overall load and fatigue management as well as a reflection of differing base training philosophies that both strive to find the balance between working enough and recovering enough so you can do more. In both cases the goal is to finish winter base building with solid aerobic fitness and prepared both physically and mentally to step it up with some higher end work during race prep and early season racing phases.

Friel's approach leans towards the traditional LSD camp which generally trades lower session intensity for longer hours on the bike. If you have the time to train this way on a regular basis, ideally more than just the weekends than this can be a great way to go and is the traditional europro approach to winter training. Hard to argue with the success generations of grand tour riders have had using that approach. The question is do you have the time to ride that way frequently and the lifestyle that allows you to recover from those frequent long rides so you can get right back out and do them again?

Coggan's approach is more of a Lydiard/SST approach that Charle's Howe has written about: http://velodynamics2.webs.com/rcgtp1.pdf
This approach favors spending less time riding but more of that time focused on moderately high intensity training mostly around or slightly below your FTP. It's not purely HIIT training which focuses on even higher end short interval efforts but still seems intense to folks in the LSD camp. Riders using this approach spend a lot of their ride time doing work at Tempo through Threshold pace with the occasional longer Endurance pace ride and perhaps some higher end work inserted into the schedule at times.

Sure you can mix and match to some extent and there are a thousand shades of gray between these approaches or even incorporating some HIIT work in the mix. Trouble is balancing some LSD work with some SST work and recovering from either type of riding to do the other form as intended. IOW, it can be tough to knock out a good set of 20 minute Threshold intervals on Tuesday if you did two really big LSD rides on Saturday or Sunday. Similarly it might be hard to rally for a long LSD ride that doesn't degrade to recovery pace after a solid 3 day midweek SST block. But if you can find the balance that works for you and your own ability to recover as well as your off the bike obligations then you can certainly mix things up to fit your needs.

Don't forget there are long term and mental aspects to this as well. Pushing real hard and getting both distance and intensity all winter can make it tough to turn things up a notch for preseason race prep or actual racing when the time comes. Only you know your own ability to deal with stress and the depths of your motivation but ignore the cumulative effect of both hard and long winter training at your own peril.

BTW, some folks have suggested 12 to 14 weekly training hours as a rough dividing line suggesting when an athlete should lean towards one approach or another. IOW, if you have less or much less than 12 hours per week available for training you'd likely do better on the SST/Lydiard/Coggan/Howe approach. If you regularly train more than 14 or perhaps a lot more than 14 hours per week you'll probably do better in the long run with an LSD approach to winter base building.

Basically if you try to both go hard and go long bad things tend to happen

If you go short and go easy then nothing at all happens

Try to avoid those extremes,

-Dave

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biketechreview.com47 base a new definitionOpen ↗

I like Willett's view on 'base building'.
The key to L4 all the time is proper nutrition and complete recovery between workouts.
Common mistake made is going too long/hard on days that are technically 'off'.

"You have to train hard and rest hard to go your fastest"...

I'm a believer and have personally put this philosophy to practice. Will admit that it takes mental toughness though to stay with the plan as life has a way of 'getting in the way' on occasion. Won't do it every winter, but alternating winters is definitely doable...

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

BTW, some folks have suggested 12 to 14 weekly training hours as a rough dividing line suggesting when an athlete should lean towards one approach or another. IOW, if you have less or much less than 12 hours per week available for training you'd likely do better on the SST/Lydiard/Coggan/Howe approach. If you regularly train more than 14 or perhaps a lot more than 14 hours per week you'll probably do better in the long run with an LSD approach to winter base building.

I've made my base training up from the suggested hours in 'the training bible' for a 450 hrs/year which is an average of 9,5 hrs in the base periods.

Base 1 is 100% L2. In base 2 i use the mix of 80% L2 and 20% L3. Base 3 is 70% L2, 20% L3 and 10% L4.

Should I then add some more L3 and L4 because of the 'low' weekly hours? -and how much? 🙂

As much as I intuitively like Kirk's base building concept's I suspect that it takes more motivation that meets the eye. I have been able to sustain that "raise the left" for 5-6 weeks at best and the gains are pretty rapid. But man it's hard work. Meanwhile SST is good, it's going hard, fits in with my style of riding and meets my time schedule (2 hours a day at best) and when I want to go good I know I can hit some L5-L6 work to really sharpen up. There was another Kiwi coach who said something similar 50 years ago[IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by numminummi [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]Should I then add some more L3 and L4 because of the 'low' weekly hours?

I would and do.

Generally I don't schedule L2 rides unless I plan to be out riding for at least three to four hours on those days. On nine hours a week or so you've likely got a lot of shorter weekday rides in the plan.

I'd bump most of those weekday rides up to at least Tempo pace and it's a very rare training week year round where I don't do at least one day of Threshold work. But I definitely believe in the SST/Lydiard style approach described above and others approach this stuff differently.

If you're newer to this and not sure how you'll deal with the training load you can at least move a few of your weekly rides up to Tempo during your Base 1 and see how you handle that but don't be afraid to do some solid Tempo and Threshold work at any time of the year as long as you recover reasonably well from the workouts and are handling the load.

IME, nine or so hours per week all at L2 or below is pretty close to the 'go short and go easy and nothing happens at all' end of the spectrum.

YMMV,
-Dave

My program is basically tue-wed-thur and then 3,5 hrs ride on sat-sun with the team (about 70% L3+)

A sample week would be something like this:
Mon: off
Tue: 2
Wed: 1,5
Thur: 2
Fri: off
Sat: 3,5
Sun: 3,5

My base training is split over the next 3 month with increasing volume (max 15 hrs/week)

How much L3 and L4 on the weekdays would you recommend starting with and how much should I be doing in the last week of the base training?

So 12 or so hours per week, not nine.

That puts you on the fence about which approach to try and how much mid week Tempo/SST you can manage and still be good for seven hours of team rides on the weekends.

Given that schedule I'd probably make Wed. a Threshold day with something like a 2x20 set. What you do on Tuesday and Thursday probably depends on how quickly you recover from the weekend rides and how you feel after Wednesdays session. IIRC this is your first season on a structured plan and likely the first season riding with your team. If that's so I'd probably start slow and just make Tuesday and Thursday L2 to maybe low L3 rides until you've got a few weeks on this plan and have a sense of how you're handling the training load.

Good luck,
-Dave

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Basically if you try to both go hard and go long bad things tend to happen

If you go short and go easy then nothing at all happens

Try to avoid those extremes,

-Dave

.

... and that's the key.

The training part is easy. If you're not planning on racing events of 3 hours or more - there's no 'need' to sit on a bike to longer than that in training, so you'd probably err less of L2 and more towards L3 and L4 but with a couple of caveats.

Long L3 sessions, especially back to back are hard and the end of the second session can be very challenging - not from just a physical and mental perspective but from a dietry one too. I've either bonked or been on the verge of bonking more than a couple of times since my winter training started ~5 weeks ago. It's not that I'm cutting back on the food before and after training either - I've actually popped on a couple of pounds but I'm just not used to that effort over two days and it's gonna take time to adapt. It would seem right now that sitting on a bike at 250w for a few hours is easier than getting my body to support that workload...

... but racing isn't easy, so training shouldn't be a walk in the park either.

Losing weight and gaining power. I've never been able to sucessfully do both at the same time. If I work on lower end L3 then I don't have to eat as much and I'm only a few hundred KJ's off the total expended energy at the end of a 2.5 to 3 hour ride and I typically lose weight pretty fast. The other dietry point is that pushing myself on the bike will leave me wanting to eat like a horse, again not great for the weight loss.

Rest. I feel that this is where most people screw up, myself included. Some of my old teammates would be better off with a resting schedule than a training schedule. You have to factor in everything that you do - family, job, other social and family activities as well as trying to get enough sleep. Ah Sleep... with sleep being so good - it's a wonder why I don't do more of it.

But don't forget that the big kicker in road races is not always how much power can you produce or how aero can you get... in road races it's often how much power can you put out after the 3rd or 4th response to the first big attack. It's not uncommon for a race to go fairly hard for an hour and then go completely batsh1t for 10 minutes and then settle down again after the selection has been made. While training for that may not be on the cards anytime real soon, you'll need to either do a bunch of races as training and try and animate the race to suit your needs or do some specific training, such as shortish intervals with limited rest. This will help in time trials a little too and helps take the sting out of those small efforts that are a little to hard. Shouldn't be an issue if you have a powermeter on the TT bike though, should it? :P

If you're not comfortable in a bunch, especially with sliding back, moving forward, occaisonally having to bump elbows when squeezing past guys ( a useful skill when there's marshalls out enforcing the centerline rule in road races) then get together with a bunch of team mates for some training that'll help you with that.

Don't forget that races that you have ear marked to help friends should be marked down as training races, unless you plan on being the water boy, rouleur and lead out man all in the same race.

Thanks for the input guys! I guess what I do will come down to how well I can recover. That said I plan on doing long rides on weekend days in L2 and shorter more intense (L3) rides in the mornings on weekdays maybe 3 days and a short recovery ride (L1) Monday between them with a rest day Wednesday totally off the bike (dictated by my schedule). In later base periods I'll add L4 work to a couple of weekdays and swap a long L2 weekend ride for as long a tempo session as I can. One of my training objectives is to reach 3 hours of hard tempo riding during my first "build phase".

But I will pay close attention to my mood and motivation and physiologic red flags to avoid overtraining. I'm very enthusiastic and the team I'm riding with expect me to do very well so... I feel like I don't want to underperform. And, it seems the best way to maximize performance is to prepare as well as I can.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by quenya [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Thanks for the input guys! I guess what I do will come down to how well I can recover. That said I plan on doing long rides on weekend days in L2 and shorter more intense (L3) rides in the mornings on weekdays maybe 3 days and a short recovery ride (L1) Monday between them with a rest day Wednesday totally off the bike (dictated by my schedule). In later base periods I'll add L4 work to a couple of weekdays and swap a long L2 weekend ride for as long a tempo session as I can. One of my training objectives is to reach 3 hours of hard tempo riding during my first "build phase".

But I will pay close attention to my mood and motivation and physiologic red flags to avoid overtraining. I'm very enthusiastic and the team I'm riding with expect me to do very well so... I feel like I don't want to underperform. And, it seems the best way to maximize performance is to prepare as well as I can.

The 3 hours hard tempo might be a bit tricky unless you actually do a bit more L3 and I personally may begin to wonder whether I was doing enough if my L3 rides were not that long.

It might just be me, (wouldn't surprise me in the least) but I find the 3 hours of L3 strangley hard, not from the perspective of it being difficult to put out the power but from a seeming lack of being able to keep "the tank" gassed up - it's just like there's some metabolic process that needs to occour much more efficiently that allows me to keep my glycogen stores topped up (depsite increasing feed rate from 250KCal an hour in steps of ~50Kcal upto a gastric unfriendly 450Kcal - tried it, it sucked and it's back where it was) as well as making fat utilization more efficient (or just plain better). Normally, with fatigue issues you can take it easy for 5 to 10 minutes and you'll at least get some improvement in performance but that last 1/2 hour... no fun, no fun at all. Dead legs.

I guess 'common sense' should dictate that I do those sessions at a lower intensity... but as they say, common sense really isn't all that common and besides, despite it feeling like no fun, it really is fun in a weird "no fun but lots of fun" kinda way.

Since you did as well as you did in the Climb to Kaiser, I don't think you'll have issues with endurance but you might struggle more with the intense efforts, especially in early season road races.

Keeping 'track' of overtraining is very difficult to do by perception of mood and motivation. If those two drop off and you want to be off the bike or think about not racing then you'd probably would have seen a trend in high intensity work or at the end of long/hard efforts where power would just not be where it was supposed to be. It was somewhat of a sweet irony that in the last season that I raced (1996) the preceeding winter training was done at a much harder level (no long club rides - with the longest being a 2 hour smashfest at almost 50 mile TT pace on the time trial bike with training wheels) but that made it easier to spot when I was overcooking it because I simply couldn't finish some of the training despite really wanting too. If I'd have been noodling around for 4+ hours then you don't really have to make a good concerted effort to keep that pace going and you can miss those easier to spot tell tale signs. But that's just me...

Swampy, I'm really looking forward to learning firsthand all the nuances of bike racing. Particularly when to go hard, hide from the wind, when to show strength, and when to be meek. I really don't want to be the guy who kills his chances by riding at the front all day, or pull a break the distance to be out-sprinted.

That said I want to train hard enough that the rookie mistakes I do make don't ruin too many races. Kaiser for instance, is on my schedule and I plan on going under 9 hours. Unlke last year when I waited for my friends up the hill and eventually ended up soloing almost everything after the summit, a teammate and very strong climber and I will stick together up, down, and then on the long flat & rolling sections home.

The main problem I'm trying to address this 'off season' is last year my training for kaiser was all L2 with 30+ minute threshold efforts up the big climbs. After Kaiser I started TTing but I still really struggle with the area between LSD and FTP. That's why I made 3 hours at tempo a training objective. I also have a focus on superthreshold intervals later to help me respond to surges but on group rides with the team I usually can bridge the gaps and or follow the attacks, so that emphasis will be later. For now I need to spend time pushing hard for a longer time.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by quenya [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Swampy, I'm really looking forward to learning firsthand all the nuances of bike racing. Particularly when to go hard, hide from the wind, when to show strength, and when to be meek. I really don't want to be the guy who kills his chances by riding at the front all day, or pull a break the distance to be out-sprinted.

That said I want to train hard enough that the rookie mistakes I do make don't ruin too many races. Kaiser for instance, is on my schedule and I plan on going under 9 hours. Unlke last year when I waited for my friends up the hill and eventually ended up soloing almost everything after the summit, a teammate and very strong climber and I will stick together up, down, and then on the long flat & rolling sections home.

The main problem I'm trying to address this 'off season' is last year my training for kaiser was all L2 with 30+ minute threshold efforts up the big climbs. After Kaiser I started TTing but I still really struggle with the area between LSD and FTP. That's why I made 3 hours at tempo a training objective. I also have a focus on superthreshold intervals later to help me respond to surges but on group rides with the team I usually can bridge the gaps and or follow the attacks, so that emphasis will be later. For now I need to spend time pushing hard for a longer time.

You'll make all the above mistakes when you start... but from the result of the hillclimb you did a while back you should do OK and should have the legs to make a few silly moves and not pay too much of a price - Cat5 and 4 aint that tough unless you're really out of shape or have been off the bike for a while.

Group rides are one thing - races... well that's another BUT it depends on the quality of the guys in your club. If they're all lower category riders 3,4 and 5 then I wouldn't read too much into it, races will be harder - if there's some Cat2 and 1 guys then that's what you're aiming for. A rule of thumb I used to follow was train for the next Category up - otherwise when you do get that upgrade you'll be shafted.

Superthreshold. That sounds ace.

The intervals that we used to do that really did help with repetative hard efforts (and sharpened TT speed nicely too) was as follows:

2 x 5 minutes. 1 minute rest in between.
2min rest
5x2 minutes. 1 minute rest.
2 min rest
10x1 minute. 30 seconds rest.
2 minute rest.
12x30 seconds. 30 seconds rest.

That was it at it's worst... You couldn't do your best numbers one each interval, especially the last two sets, you did what you could at the max you could hold (paced) over the length of the interval. The last set was just maxed out - and that 30 seconds rest just vanished.

A six weeks of doing that twice during the week and life gets easier. I was never a sprinter type, so it helped me alot on the flat but the style of racing was much more aggressive than anything I've seen over here. That said, you didn't have the lemming like "pararie dogs" shouting "attack on the right, attack on the right, attack on the right..." God, I could have slapped some folks upside the head and called them spineless (or legless) pussies... LOL

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

You'll make all the above mistakes when you start... but from the result of the hillclimb you did a while back you should do OK and should have the legs to make a few silly moves and not pay too much of a price - Cat5 and 4 aint that tough unless you're really out of shape or have been off the bike for a while.
Group rides are one thing - races... well that's another BUT it depends on the quality of the guys in your club. If they're all lower category riders 3,4 and 5 then I wouldn't read too much into it, races will be harder - if there's some Cat2 and 1 guys then that's what you're aiming for. A rule of thumb I used to follow was train for the next Category up - otherwise when you do get that upgrade you'll be shafted.

Superthreshold. That sounds ace.

The intervals that we used to do that really did help with repetative hard efforts (and sharpened TT speed nicely too) was as follows:

2 x 5 minutes. 1 minute rest in between.
2min rest
5x2 minutes. 1 minute rest.
2 min rest
10x1 minute. 30 seconds rest.
2 minute rest.
12x30 seconds. 30 seconds rest.

That was it at it's worst... You couldn't do your best numbers one each interval, especially the last two sets, you did what you could at the max you could hold (paced) over the length of the interval. The last set was just maxed out - and that 30 seconds rest just vanished.

A six weeks of doing that twice during the week and life gets easier. I was never a sprinter type, so it helped me alot on the flat but the style of racing was much more aggressive than anything I've seen over here. That said, you didn't have the lemming like "pararie dogs" shouting "attack on the right, attack on the right, attack on the right..." God, I could have slapped some folks upside the head and called them spineless (or legless) pussies... LOL

The club rides were a mix of 4/3/2s, the team I'm on has mostly 3s a few 2s and a few 4/5s who 'will be 3 or higher very soon.'

That is a killer looking workout, I think you might hate me or maybe your afraid we are going to end up racing one another and want to bump me off before that?

you said "lemming like 'pararie dogs' shouting 'attack on the right, attack on the right, attack on the right...'" but I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this. Are pack fodder yelling about an attack that's winding up on the right warning the guys at the front and eliminating the element of surprise, or are they trying to get someone to go at that moment but can't do it themselves?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by quenya [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG] Are pack fodder yelling about an attack that's winding up on the right warning the guys at the front and eliminating the element of surprise, or are they trying to get someone to go at that moment but can't do it themselves?...

[edit] dohhh, I didn't read you question carefully enough. The yells of 'Attack, attack...' are in response to someone taking a flyer and intended to reduce the element of surprise and hopefully get someone else to do the work to neutralize the move, not a suggestion that now might be a good time for someone to try something. The rest of my response below lays out why that sort of group think defensive mentality sucks...

It's common in lower category races and a sure sign of defensive riding among riders that just want to survive to the finish. Attacks are good! They create strategic and tactical opportunities to bridge or counter when they're chased down. The 'let's all get to the finish together' mentality is really negative racing, all but assures a bunch sprint, is one reason why lower category races so often end in carnage with broken bikes and bodies and reduces the sport to a group tour ending in a sprint. It's also almost always someone who'll never actually go up front and do the chasing themselves that screams out the upcoming attacks which just adds to the dork factor.

Let the attacks happen, go with them if you see the wind up and are positioned in a place where you can respond. Bridge solo or chase if you miss the move. If the group is exhibiting classic lower category defensive riding and everybody digs in to chase every break then sit back a few riders and counter attack the move when it's brought back in. When folks start riding like that the game becomes a lot more interesting.

If you're a sprinter than sure you want things to come down to a sprint but sprinting against a small group that broke away or survived a course selection still beats going head to head with a huge field. That's especially true if the race gets really defensive (which happens a lot) and everyone joins in to chase every move only to sit up and rest once the break is neutralized with no counter attacks, that's a recipe for a lot of folks approaching the line suddenly thinking they're Cavendish and taking ridiculous risks from the back of the field often resulting in huge pileups. Let the game play out, let the fields split up as they will with aggressive less defensive racing and the whole game is a lot more fun.

-Dave

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

[edit] dohhh, I didn't read you question carefully enough. The yells of 'Attack, attack...' are in response to someone taking a flyer and intended to reduce the element of surprise and hopefully get someone else to do the work to neutralize the move, not a suggestion that now might be a good time for someone to try something. The rest of my response below lays out why that sort of group think defensive mentality sucks...

It's common in lower category races and a sure sign of defensive riding among riders that just want to survive to the finish. Attacks are good! They create strategic and tactical opportunities to bridge or counter when they're chased down. The 'let's all get to the finish together' mentality is really negative racing, all but assures a bunch sprint, is one reason why lower category races so often end in carnage with broken bikes and bodies and reduces the sport to a group tour ending in a sprint. It's also almost always someone who'll never actually go up front and do the chasing themselves that screams out the upcoming attacks which just adds to the dork factor.

Let the attacks happen, go with them if you see the wind up and are positioned in a place where you can respond. Bridge solo or chase if you miss the move. If the group is exhibiting classic lower category defensive riding and everybody digs in to chase every break then sit back a few riders and counter attack the move when it's brought back in. When folks start riding like that the game becomes a lot more interesting.

If you're a sprinter than sure you want things to come down to a sprint but sprinting against a small group that broke away or survived a course selection still beats going head to head with a huge field. That's especially true if the race gets really defensive (which happens a lot) and everyone joins in to chase every move only to sit up and rest once the break is neutralized with no counter attacks, that's a recipe for a lot of folks approaching the line suddenly thinking they're Cavendish and taking ridiculous risks from the back of the field often resulting in huge pileups. Let the game play out, let the fields split up as they will with aggressive less defensive racing and the whole game is a lot more fun.

-Dave

I generally agree with you, but am going to play devil's advocate here nonetheless. Imagine these scenarios:

You are boxed in as you see a ligitimate attack initiated by the one racer in the peloton who, given the opportunity to get away, can and will solo to a win. You can't safely jump on it, but maybe you have a teammate ahead who you want to make the break, or you are an unattached rider, no teammate, and your only hope at that moment is for the people in position to bring the break back. Should you really not call out the attack and give them a heads-up? Maybe by not saying anything you are handing your opponent the win.

Or, you have been responding to attacks all day. You have positioned yourself well, are reading the race well, and are able to go with everything. But nothing has stuck. Your legs are turning to jello and it is really someone else's turn here to solve the next "problem". Just as you are fighting to recover from your last acceleration, the strongest rider in the peloton takes a flier. Nice move, to attack when you think got nothing left. Kudos to the competition for making the winning move? That's bike racing? Or try to get the field to respond and bring back the break by calling out the attack?

. . . note that in both of these situations, I am kinda talking about how to deal with that sandbagger who really can out-race the entire peleton. He/she wins EVERY race, unless the field is on their toes and doesn't give him/her an inch. I have seen it happen (too often) and, tired of losing week after week, the mentality in the field with these folks is "all against one".

Sorry, I don't buy either of those as an excuse for defensive 'all for one and one for all' pack riding.

If you miss the move and want to get yourself or a team mate into the move then reposition as necessary and launch a counter at the first opportunity. If you've been doing all the chasing with no support then you've over exposed yourself and have made a tactical blunder that someone else properly exploited. Instead of chasing all those moves and presumably taking the field with you each time how about marking the instigators and going away with them to form a strong 2 or 3 rider break or how about letting the break develop a bit and launching a solid solo bridging move from far enough back that you don't telegraph your intentions and tow everyone up?

As a Cat 3 I've ridden a lot of 1/2/3 races and a fair number of 3/4/5 races. I hear the screams of 'attack attack' in many if not most of the lower category variety and have yet to hear that kind of stuff in higher category racing. It's what turns so many Cat 4 and 5 races into Granfondos ending in a bunch sprint instead of a bike race with positive tactics played out for the entire race.

-Dave

I got issues with the sentiment that races ending in bunch sprints are less worthy. Ain't nuthin' wrong with the finish ending in a bunch sprint when you can sprint...just the way things work out sometimes; doesn't make the effort any less of a "race"...if you can't determine your destiny, then you need to get stronger or be on a stronger team...

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by quenya [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

The club rides were a mix of 4/3/2s, the team I'm on has mostly 3s a few 2s and a few 4/5s who 'will be 3 or higher very soon.'

That is a killer looking workout, I think you might hate me or maybe your afraid we are going to end up racing one another and want to bump me off before that?

you said "lemming like 'pararie dogs' shouting 'attack on the right, attack on the right, attack on the right...'" but I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this. Are pack fodder yelling about an attack that's winding up on the right warning the guys at the front and eliminating the element of surprise, or are they trying to get someone to go at that moment but can't do it themselves?

Sounds like an interesting team you're on. I wish there was a similar team that was local to me... I've been asked to join both of the local clubs but my interests and my goals are almost a polar opposite of theirs. I passed one of the clubs out on a ride today on a nice tailwind section of road - they were doing about 21mph and I was doing 29.

That interval session is tough and it has a singular purpose. Afraid? Nah... You could put me in a bunch with half the ProTour guys and I wouldn't be afraid... I'd be fighting for position up front so I could be in awe when the hammer went down. Plus, I'm not the type to give out dodgy information with the belief that it'll work you over and give you sore legs before a race.

Pack fodder lemmings with no legs and no balls... but, due to constraints in training time prior to the mad dash to get Cat5 out the way I really didn't have any legs to do anything about it but just get annoyed. LOL. It's rather ironic but very uplifting that I'm now way fitter than I was just a couple of months ago.

Had a nice freezing cold 2 1/2 hr slog in the [censored] 'n wind averaging 22mph @ 260watts. You can tell it's been a good ride when you look like you've been dragged around in the back roads and you stand at the end of the garage and pour the water out of your shoes and still have a big cheesy grin on your face... First training ride in a long time where I had a puncture too. There goes the 4 year run of punctureless rides on the Conti GP's. I've had a couple of occaisions where I discovered the bike in the garage with a flat tire... but this is the first time they've let me down out on the road. That's been the domain of the Michelins and Vittorias...

I think this thread boils down to what you believe the definition of what you think 'a base' is with regards to training. I believe it's the build up of primarily hard aerobic work that's the corner stone that the high end race prep and high intensity efforts anchor from, which is why I have both the couple of hard L3 rides and a mix of L4 rides. If/when I get to a position where I think I can have a really good crack at something like the Furnace Creek 508, then I may throw in some really long L2 efforts, or at least some low end L3 long rides - whatever I can ride hard at for the given duration but those will be primarily "getting butt used to saddle for hours" rides and not used for the intent of building aerobic power. Even for Cat 1 and 2 where you might get 80+ mile road races then I'd still say that you'd been looking at 3 to 4 hour 'maybe' at the bottom end of L3 for at least one ride a week with a couple of 3 hours rides mid to higher end L3.

Kinda figured I'd ruffle at least one sprinter's feathers with my posts above.

No I'm not down on any race that ends in a sprint, just the group think gotta neutralize everything and we don't actually compete against one another till the final kilometer mentality that seems so common in lower category races with warning shouts to the entire group. Sure as a sprinter it may or may not play to your game (rather sprint against six or sixty?) but it's the general defensive nature and survival for all mentality that I hate.

I'm willing to guess Tony that you're not that guy shouting out the the entire field in a panic anytime someone winds up an attack. Something tells me you'd either jump on his wheel when you saw that happening or get yourself ready to cash in when the group brings him back.

-Dave