Barefoot Walking - Advice please

Jell said:

Has anybody got any experience of this?

Last year I met a New Zealander and his (local) girlfriend in the Lairig
Ghru about 1/2 mile from the Corrour, and they were both barefoot.
They'd set out from the Linn o' Quioch car park and had just started to
return. They both moved faster than me (but I had a heavy pack, whereas
they didn't even have day sacks). It didn't seem to cause them any
problems, but I would say that that stretch is quite smooth for the most
part.

Jim Ford

Jell bashed at the keyboard and said:

I'd welcome your collective advice and discussion.

I am organising a trip to North Wales in a few weeks, ten of us, mainly
experienced walkers, climbers and leaders but with one or two fit but
inexperienced walkers. We aim to do some walking in the Carneddau and
maybe the Glyders/au.

It turns out that one of the new walkers habitually goes about barefoot,
and would like to do that on the mountains.

I don't have a problem with his lifestyle choice, but I'm worried about
the consequences.

Has anybody got any experience of this?

Jell

I can only imagine the pain on rocks.
--
Mike.

Jell said:

I'd welcome your collective advice and discussion.

I am organising a trip to North Wales in a few weeks, ten of us, mainly
experienced walkers, climbers and leaders but with one or two fit but
inexperienced walkers. We aim to do some walking in the Carneddau and
maybe the Glyders/au.

It turns out that one of the new walkers habitually goes about barefoot,
and would like to do that on the mountains.

I don't have a problem with his lifestyle choice, but I'm worried about
the consequences.

Has anybody got any experience of this?

Cavemen?

"Jell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd welcome your collective advice and discussion.

I am organising a trip to North Wales in a few weeks, ten of us, mainly

Does your "organising" include any liability for matters going wrong?
Taking money, Insurance etc. "ten" suggests to me that your enterprise may
now be covered by legislation - following the various disasters on sea
training, school trips etc.
I think you have to decide what safety rules might be in force, and perhaps
more important, what rules might suddenly come into force or be remembered
when matters go wrong.

[I remember being "reprimanded" some years ago when I permitted an employee
(in industry, and therefore covered by the HSAW Act) to not wear safety
shoes in a safety footwear designated area. (A signed declarations by the
said employee not wishing to wear safety shoes was not acceptable.) From
what I recall, following a risk assessment, safety instructions etc. simply
had to be obeyed.]

Why not ask this question on uk.legal ?

--
M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:49:20 +0100, Jell
<[email hidden]> wrote:

| I'd welcome your collective advice and discussion.
|
| I am organising a trip to North Wales in a few weeks, ten of us, mainly
| experienced walkers, climbers and leaders but with one or two fit but
| inexperienced walkers. We aim to do some walking in the Carneddau and
| maybe the Glyders/au.
|
| It turns out that one of the new walkers habitually goes about barefoot,
| and would like to do that on the mountains.
|
| I don't have a problem with his lifestyle choice, but I'm worried about
| the consequences.
|
| Has anybody got any experience of this?

Only observations on what happens in Arabia and Africa.
When people regularly walk barefoot, they develop a thick hoof on the soles
of the feet, which protect the feet, so they have much less problems than
you would expect. I remember in Africa seeing someone with 1/4 thick
hoofs.

I would try to persuade them to carry a pair of trainers, or something just
in case of problems. Mention paths surfaced with slate chippings, which
I have seen elsewhere.

--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk>
The London suicide bombers killed innocent commuters.
Animal rights terrorists and activists kill innocent patients.

Dave Fawthrop said:

Only observations on what happens in Arabia and Africa.

And India, and Australia, and various parts of Asia etc. etc. Lots of
the world's population are habitually barefoot.

Quoted message said:

I would try to persuade them to carry a pair of trainers, or something just
in case of problems. Mention paths surfaced with slate chippings, which
I have seen elsewhere.

Good idea. A pair of flip flops would probably do and be quite a bit
lighter and low bulk. I walk around barefoot a fair bit (but not at the
level of hiking), and the only real problems are on smallish (a few cm)
loose stones of an angular nature, but regrettably formally built paths
are often surfaced with the like these days.

I recall there was an article in TGO a few years ago now about a chap
usually doing his UK hiking barefoot. It's unusual but if you're used
to it then there shouldn't be a particular problem.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:52:09 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email hidden]>
wrote:

| Dave Fawthrop wrote:
|
| > Only observations on what happens in Arabia and Africa.
|
| And India, and Australia, and various parts of Asia etc. etc. Lots of
| the world's population are habitually barefoot.
|
| > I would try to persuade them to carry a pair of trainers, or something just
| > in case of problems. Mention paths surfaced with slate chippings, which
| > I have seen elsewhere.
|
| Good idea. A pair of flip flops would probably do and be quite a bit
| lighter and low bulk.

Not a good idea, I have walked interesting hills in flip flops, in Aden
(South Yemen). Your foot slides about on a layer of sweat, which is not
much of a problem on the level, but caused problems on steep slopes. A
couple of times the thong broke, when I was at the top of a steep slope of
volcanic clinker :-( which made for an interesting, slow descent. The
Arabs used leather sandals with similar strapping arrangement to walking
sandals. Walking sandals would be light and get you out of most problems.
--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk>
The London suicide bombers killed innocent commuters.
Animal rights terrorists and activists kill innocent patients.

Jell said:

It turns out that one of the new walkers habitually goes about barefoot,
and would like to do that on the mountains.

A friend of mine had a similar experience on an outdoors week (for
want of a better name), when leading a walk with a party containing a
habitual barefooter. He got the barefooter to carry some walking boots
in his bag, so that they were available if he got into difficulties.

Needless to say the barefooter got into no difficulties at all, and
caused incredulity to walkers outwith the party by happily tackling
Striding Edge! As my favourite footwear is no footwear at all, I wish I
could go barefoot in the hills myself, but apart from short bimbles on
grass, I don't find it practicable.

Mark
--
Mark Manning [email hidden]

Jell said:

I'd welcome your collective advice and discussion.

I am organising a trip to North Wales in a few weeks, ten of us, mainly
experienced walkers, climbers and leaders but with one or two fit but
inexperienced walkers. We aim to do some walking in the Carneddau and
maybe the Glyders/au.

It turns out that one of the new walkers habitually goes about barefoot,
and would like to do that on the mountains.

I don't have a problem with his lifestyle choice, but I'm worried about
the consequences.

Has anybody got any experience of this?

Here you go.

http://www.spservices.co.uk/index.php/cPath/91

Have a great time!

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"I will have a foreign-handed foreign policy."
g.w.AT [guessthisbit].com

Malcolm Stewart said:

Why not ask this question on uk.legal ?

Or uk.rec.loopy?

:-)

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"I will have a foreign-handed foreign policy."
g.w.AT [guessthisbit].com

Dave Fawthrop said:

Not a good idea, I have walked interesting hills in flip flops, in Aden
(South Yemen). Your foot slides about on a layer of sweat, which is not
much of a problem on the level, but caused problems on steep slopes.

I won't dispute this, but note that you were using them as a primary
piece of always-on footwear where these folk will be using it as either
a "just in case" they come across something too sharp for their bare
feet to handle, or more likely not at all. Like the difference between
an emergency bivvy bag and a good sleeping bag, the emergency kit isn't
ideal but most of the selling point is it isn't cumbersome or expensive.

Quoted message said:

Walking sandals would be light and get you out of most problems.

And cost 20 times as much and still weigh twice as much... Don't forget
these are intended as a stopgap that is unlikely to be used at all.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Jell said:

I'd welcome your collective advice and discussion.

I am organising a trip to North Wales in a few weeks, ten of us, mainly
experienced walkers, climbers and leaders but with one or two fit but
inexperienced walkers. We aim to do some walking in the Carneddau and
maybe the Glyders/au.

It turns out that one of the new walkers habitually goes about barefoot,
and would like to do that on the mountains.

Maybe I didn't take this seriously enough, as quite a few of you seem
to think it should be ok.

It seems rash and potentially dangerous to me for a number of reasons,
though, bearing in mind that we're talking about a trip to the
mountains of North Wales in October.

First, if the bloke isn't used to walking barefoot *on mountains* then
isn't he likely to encounter significant difficulty walking on sharp
rocks, and the sort of small, loose rocks and shale that one would
expect to encounter up there? Even if he can cope with the pain, what
about the obvious risk of injury to his feet, and subsequent
infection?

Secondly, isn't he likely to lose quite a lot of heat through bare
feet on rock, in October? If we were talking about bare feet on grass
in June then I'm sure it would be different, but October in North
Wales??

Thirdly, what about the increased risk of twisting an ankle through
having no support at all on his feet?

To be honest, this sounds like an idiotic idea to me, and just asking
for trouble. If I was a member of a MRT called out to assist someone
who'd injured themselves by walking barefoot in the the mountains in
October, I think I'd be pretty annoyed.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
g.w.AT [guessthisbit].com

Peewiglet said:

First, if the bloke isn't used to walking barefoot *on mountains* then
isn't he likely to encounter significant difficulty walking on sharp
rocks, and the sort of small, loose rocks and shale that one would
expect to encounter up there?

Most rocks aren't actually that sharp. Or kids wouldn't delight in
playing on them (with bare feet) at the seaside! Small, loose stones
aren't really a problem, and nor are big ones. IME it's the in-between
ones that aren't very good in bare feet, but outside of pebble beaches
these aren't actually that common as a surface, or at least unavoidable
surfaces.

Quoted message said:

Even if he can cope with the pain

What pain? If you're used to walking barefoot then there shouldn't
really be any.

Quoted message said:

what about the obvious risk of injury to his feet

A bit like the obvious risk of injury to hands when climbing! But
barefoot walkers have very thick skin to protect them.

Quoted message said:

and subsequent infection?

Don't forget significant numbers of the world's population are barefoot
most of the time and are walking in natural or semi-natural
environments. If infection to bare feet was going to be a major problem
we'd have died out tens of thousands of years ago.

Quoted message said:

Secondly, isn't he likely to lose quite a lot of heat through bare
feet on rock, in October? If we were talking about bare feet on grass
in June then I'm sure it would be different, but October in North
Wales??

I spent last Sunday in Scotland wandering around in my sandals. Of
course these insulate me from the ground, but they don't insulate me
from the streams and bogs of cold water I spent a lot of the day in (the
Cobbler footpath was basically a river). And my feet were never cold.

I used to suffer terribly with cold feet, back when I /always/ cooped
them up in socks and shoes. These days they're a lot more capable of
taking the cold.

Quoted message said:

Thirdly, what about the increased risk of twisting an ankle through
having no support at all on his feet?

Wrong way around, he's got /less/ chance of twisting an ankle. Studies
of mixed barefoot/shod populations have shown that all the really nasty
ankle injuries happen to people wearing stuff on their feet, because it
gives a lever to turn them over more effectively. [censored] sapiens have
only had shoes for a few thousand years, and their feet have been
evolving for millions. The basic design isn't prone to disaster in the
absence of shoes.

Quoted message said:

To be honest, this sounds like an idiotic idea to me, and just asking
for trouble.

But though there aren't /many/ of them, there certainly are people out
there doing this that prove you wrong every time they do it. I'm often
told off for my "inappropriate" footwear but despite all the assurances
of doom I do okay. I think barefoot walkers will find similar.

Quoted message said:

If I was a member of a MRT called out to assist someone
who'd injured themselves by walking barefoot in the the mountains in
October, I think I'd be pretty annoyed.

There is a tale, very probably apocryphal but never mind, of Hilary &
Tenzing visiting the UK after Everest '53, where they were wandering up
some Welsh or Lakeland peak in plimsoles. Stopped by an infuriated
ranger who did not know who they were, they were told plimmies were
completely unsuitable for the mountains. So they took them off, and
carried on...

Have a google on barefoot hiking: I think you'll find it's more
widespread than you believe and not just limited the hard of thinking
tree-huggers.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Peewiglet said:

First, if the bloke isn't used to walking barefoot *on mountains* then
isn't he likely to encounter significant difficulty walking on sharp
rocks, and the sort of small, loose rocks and shale that one would
expect to encounter up there?

Most rocks aren't actually that sharp. Or kids wouldn't delight in
playing on them (with bare feet) at the seaside! Small, loose stones
aren't really a problem, and nor are big ones. IME it's the in-between
ones that aren't very good in bare feet, but outside of pebble beaches
these aren't actually that common as a surface, or at least unavoidable
surfaces.

Quoted message said:

Even if he can cope with the pain

What pain? If you're used to walking barefoot then there shouldn't
really be any.

Quoted message said:

what about the obvious risk of injury to his feet

A bit like the obvious risk of injury to hands when climbing! But
barefoot walkers have very thick skin to protect them.

Quoted message said:

and subsequent infection?

Don't forget significant numbers of the world's population are barefoot
most of the time and are walking in natural or semi-natural
environments. If infection to bare feet was going to be a major problem
we'd have died out tens of thousands of years ago.

Quoted message said:

Secondly, isn't he likely to lose quite a lot of heat through bare
feet on rock, in October? If we were talking about bare feet on grass
in June then I'm sure it would be different, but October in North
Wales??

I spent last Sunday in Scotland wandering around in my sandals. Of
course these insulate me from the ground, but they don't insulate me
from the streams and bogs of cold water I spent a lot of the day in (the
Cobbler footpath was basically a river). And my feet were never cold.

I used to suffer terribly with cold feet, back when I /always/ cooped
them up in socks and shoes. These days they're a lot more capable of
taking the cold.

Quoted message said:

Thirdly, what about the increased risk of twisting an ankle through
having no support at all on his feet?

Wrong way around, he's got /less/ chance of twisting an ankle. Studies
of mixed barefoot/shod populations have shown that all the really nasty
ankle injuries happen to people wearing stuff on their feet, because it
gives a lever to turn them over more effectively. [censored] sapiens have
only had shoes for a few thousand years, and their feet have been
evolving for millions. The basic design isn't prone to disaster in the
absence of shoes.

Quoted message said:

To be honest, this sounds like an idiotic idea to me, and just asking
for trouble.

But though there aren't /many/ of them, there certainly are people out
there doing this that prove you wrong every time they do it. I'm often
told off for my "inappropriate" footwear but despite all the assurances
of doom I do okay. I think barefoot walkers will find similar.

Quoted message said:

If I was a member of a MRT called out to assist someone
who'd injured themselves by walking barefoot in the the mountains in
October, I think I'd be pretty annoyed.

There is a tale, very probably apocryphal but never mind, of Hilary &
Tenzing visiting the UK after Everest '53, where they were wandering up
some Welsh or Lakeland peak in plimsoles. Stopped by an infuriated
ranger who did not know who they were, they were told plimmies were
completely unsuitable for the mountains. So they took them off, and
carried on...

Have a google on barefoot hiking: I think you'll find it's more
widespread than you believe and not just limited the hard of thinking
tree-huggers.

Well, you amaze me. Each to his/her own opinion, though!

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"Is our children learning?"
g.w.AT [guessthisbit].com

Peewiglet said:

Well, you amaze me.

A good few years ago I'd have said the same. Many years ago I'd have
said it would be mad going out in the hills in anything other than
walking boots, but my mind was very much changed when I saw what was
involved in a Mountain Marathon, found geologists often preferred
wellies for fieldwork, etc. Evidence in front of your own eyes can be
pretty amazing...

Quoted message said:

Each to his/her own opinion, though!

It's not so much an opinion as just watching what people do, even if
they're people outside of your immediate circle. There are people going
out walking serious stuff barefoot, and "you can't do that!" is pretty
comprehensively answered by "but people have been doing it for thousands
of years!"

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Dave Fawthrop said:

It all depends how hardened said person's feet are.

Can you organise a local afternoon stroll for the ten?
Finding some surfaces and slopes representative of the Glyders?

Very good idea. Most of us simply don't have any real experience of
what a habitual barefoot walker can do, in which case some empirical
testing is the best way to be sure.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Bob Mannix said:

Not really interested in people' choice to go barefoot, that's up to them
but I must take issue here. The reason children can play more happily on
rocks in bare feet is that they are hugely lighter than most adults. The
pressure that is induced when stood on a knobbly or sharp bit is therefore
hugely less for them and much less painful. The issue of the feet being
smaller is irrelevant as, when stood on a sharpish bit, it's just the area
of the sharp bit that matters.

Fine reasoning, but it doesn't stop me from wandering around barefoot on
hard rocks at the seaside... And I don't have /really/ hard feet.

Most rocks just don't have particularly sharp edges because of
weathering. Barnacles are an exception, I /hated/ them as a child, but
these days I can walk on them without too much bother thanks to tougher
feet, despite my much greater weight.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Mannix said:

Not really interested in people' choice to go barefoot, that's up to them
but I must take issue here. The reason children can play more happily on
rocks in bare feet is that they are hugely lighter than most adults. The
pressure that is induced when stood on a knobbly or sharp bit is
therefore hugely less for them and much less painful. The issue of the
feet being smaller is irrelevant as, when stood on a sharpish bit, it's
just the area of the sharp bit that matters.

Fine reasoning, but it doesn't stop me from wandering around barefoot on
hard rocks at the seaside... And I don't have /really/ hard feet.

Most rocks just don't have particularly sharp edges because of weathering.
Barnacles are an exception, I /hated/ them as a child, but these days I
can walk on them without too much bother thanks to tougher feet, despite
my much greater weight.

Ah, but, you (as an adult) look where you are putting your feet. Children
are pathologically inacapable of doing that under any conditions. The acid
test is walking into the sea where the beach is stony and you can't see it.
You will see the children get in and out far quicker than the adults, who
are generally going ow! [censored]! and moving slowly until, like rescued beached
whales, they gain buoyancy.

My own view on barefoot walking (damn, I wasn't going to get involved) is
that, as long as you look where you are putting your feet you will probably
be OK (even in Ocober) apart from discomfort brought on by cold etc.
Unfortunately most people don't always/never look where they are putting
their feet - it's bad enough stubbing your little toe on the bedpost, never
mind up a cold mountain. Also, if a rock drops on your hand and smashes it,
you can still walk home. Not so with a foot. This inevitably means an
(small) increased average reliance on MRTs, were barefoot walking to become
more than isolated cases. Of course, the last point goes for sandals too
(and, to be fair, would be a rare occurrence).

--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Quoted message said:

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:53:37 +0100, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>

dropped their trousers and said:

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:43:27 +0100, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm still amazed we're having this conversation. Are you sure you're
not disagreeing just for the fun of the argument? 🙂

Wonder if he toughens up his hands by taking things out of the hot
oven with his bare hands, just to save time on oven gloves etc...

--
Dewi,

(no email)