banned from the train

Quoted message said:

The question is, what do I do about it? Undoubtedly, a stiff letter is
called for, but does anyone have any useful suggestions about wording?
(Yes, I know this is not exactly an original topic, and I shall be
trawling the archives in due course, but I wanted to mention it because
circumstances mean it is newly topical.)

Enlist the help of your local cycling campaigns, and those campaigns
near all affected stations and areas.
Last year North Somerset, Bristol and Bath Cycling Campaigns grouped
together (with support from other campaigns in the region) to launch a
e-mail-to-fax campaign to Wessex Trains, who banned cycles from peak-time
services. (some details remain at http://www.nscycle.org.uk/wessex.php )
After a bit of local and national exposure, a few hundred faxes and
postcards through their letterbox, Wessex dropped the ban. They kept the 2
bikes per train rule, though, with many services being non-reservable,
it's a lottery as to whether you can get on or not.
There are many angles to take on this, big luggage being one of them
(Bath Cycling Campaign got on the local TV and in the newspapers with a
campaign where they took big items on the train), lack of alternative
facilities (how are storage facilities at the various stations? Wessex
suggested commuters have 2 bikes, and keep one at either end!!), lack of
transport integration and above all, turning away customers. Is this
communist Russia? I want to travel by train, I want to pay, and they are banning
me because there isn't enough space?
Get campaigning!

tom said:

Last year North Somerset, Bristol and Bath Cycling Campaigns grouped
together (with support from other campaigns in the region) to launch a
e-mail-to-fax campaign to Wessex Trains, who banned cycles from peak-time
services.

Ah yes, I remember that. I think I may even have sent them a fax
myself.

Quoted message said:

Get campaigning!

Wilco. Thanks for the suggestions.

d.

"davek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

tom said:

Last year North Somerset, Bristol and Bath Cycling Campaigns grouped
together (with support from other campaigns in the region) to launch a
e-mail-to-fax campaign to Wessex Trains, who banned cycles from peak-time
services.

Ah yes, I remember that. I think I may even have sent them a fax
myself.

Quoted message said:

Get campaigning!

Wilco. Thanks for the suggestions.

Well, the trains into London are chocca, and they can't exempt just "DaveK's
train". Personally it's the rule that you cannot go the opposite way to the
rush hour which is the main problem I have with the new rules. If I worked
in London, then I would either cycle all the way there, leave a cheap crappy
bike at Waterloo or get a foldable (even a cheap Dahon would suffice?).

Quoted message said:

Well, the trains into London are chocca, and they can't exempt just "DaveK's
train".

No, but a more detailed look at it may indeed reveal other trains which
aren't chocca. In the case of Wessex, there are loads of trains which
weren't full, in fact many were virtually empty, but were subject to the
ban.
There is a huge government subsidy on many of these rail services, so if
they are running empty because passengers are banned from the trains,
then that has to be a scandal!

tom said:

Quoted message said:

The question is, what do I do about it? Undoubtedly, a stiff letter is
called for, but does anyone have any useful suggestions about wording?
(Yes, I know this is not exactly an original topic, and I shall be
trawling the archives in due course, but I wanted to mention it because
circumstances mean it is newly topical.)

Enlist the help of your local cycling campaigns, and those campaigns
near all affected stations and areas.
Last year North Somerset, Bristol and Bath Cycling Campaigns grouped
together (with support from other campaigns in the region) to launch a
e-mail-to-fax campaign to Wessex Trains, who banned cycles from peak-time
services. (some details remain at http://www.nscycle.org.uk/wessex.php )
After a bit of local and national exposure, a few hundred faxes and
postcards through their letterbox, Wessex dropped the ban. They kept the 2
bikes per train rule, though, with many services being non-reservable,
it's a lottery as to whether you can get on or not.
There are many angles to take on this, big luggage being one of them
(Bath Cycling Campaign got on the local TV and in the newspapers with a
campaign where they took big items on the train),

Hippo's perhaps? Le monde à bicyclette in Montreal once took a stuffed
hippo on the Metro, I believe.

Quoted message said:

lack of alternative
facilities (how are storage facilities at the various stations? Wessex
suggested commuters have 2 bikes, and keep one at either end!!), lack of
transport integration and above all, turning away customers. Is this
communist Russia? I want to travel by train, I want to pay, and they are banning
me because there isn't enough space?
Get campaigning!

sorry to hear this Dave; I commute to Victoria on Southern and am
likely to do so until about 2045 AD and use exactly the same trains as
you; I bought a folder last year but have only had to fold it a few
times as they have not yet enforced the ban, but I was handed a
questionnaire about this very thing a few months back. Methinks
Southern will follow the SRA's trainSET soon which will result in most
of my fellow bike passengers being kicked off and me having to take
origami lessons. But to be be fair I was expecting it to happen 8 years
ago and certainly when the electrostars entered full service (which
they still haven't, was treated to a CIG/VEP rattle n roll last night)

On 30 Sep 2005 09:49:28 -0700, "davek" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The question is, what do I do about it?

Do what the French cyclist does to get on the TGV. Take off the front
wheel and put the bike in a lightweight bike bag.

elyob said:

Well, the trains into London are chocca

Not all of them.

Quoted message said:

If I worked
in London, then I would either cycle all the way there, leave a cheap crappy
bike at Waterloo or get a foldable (even a cheap Dahon would suffice?).

It's a 60 mile journey so cycling all the way is not practical.

I wouldn't be happy to leave even a cheap, crappy bike at Victoria -
not if I wanted to be able to rely on finding it in a useable
condition.

Yes, I could get a folder. It would be a good excuse, and if I get lots
more work in London then I will probably do that. (I'm working at home
at the moment - a folder would be useful as I am taking my son to
school on the bus. If I had a folder I could use it to ride home after
dropping him off. Maybe I'll try that theory on my wife...)

Anyway, it's not about the personal inconvenience, it's about the
/principle/ of the thing - billions of pounds in subsidies are being
poured into the rail companies and they still can't run a proper
service. If they made sure there were enough trains that everyone could
get a seat instead of being crammed in like cattle (on those services
where this applies) there wouldn't be a problem with anyone taking
bikes.

Instead, they choose to disenfranchise a section of their customers.

Pah!

d.

On 4 Oct 2005 02:00:44 -0700, "davek" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Anyway, it's not about the personal inconvenience, it's about the
/principle/ of the thing - billions of pounds in subsidies are being
poured into the rail companies and they still can't run a proper
service. If they made sure there were enough trains that everyone could
get a seat instead of being crammed in like cattle (on those services
where this applies) there wouldn't be a problem with anyone taking
bikes.

There still would be a problem, the problem with bikes is the time it
takes to load them, not the space they take, loading a couple of bikes
at a single stop takes a lot longer than loading people, because of
the requirement to run the tracks at capacity delays in station cause
knock on delays for everyone, it's reasonable to inconvenience the
tiny minority of cyclists so everyone has a better chance of being on
time.

Just adjust your timing, go early, go late, and you don't have the
problem.

Jim.

Jim Ley said:

There still would be a problem, the problem with bikes is the time it
takes to load them, not the space they take, loading a couple of bikes
at a single stop takes a lot longer than loading people, because of
the requirement to run the tracks at capacity delays in station cause
knock on delays for everyone, it's reasonable to inconvenience the
tiny minority of cyclists so everyone has a better chance of being on
time.

Unless you make demands that cycles are loaded on one part of the train
and you provide no information at all on the platform as to where that
part may stop then there is no reason loading a bicycle takes any longer
than a person getting on and is a lot shorter than a person with a push
chair, children, or more than one suitcase IME

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Jim Ley said:

There still would be a problem, the problem with bikes is the time it
takes to load them, not the space they take, loading a couple of bikes
at a single stop takes a lot longer than loading people, because of
the requirement to run the tracks at capacity delays in station cause
knock on delays for everyone, it's reasonable to inconvenience the
tiny minority of cyclists so everyone has a better chance of being on
time.

Bikes on trains only really work at all because there aren't that many
of them... I saw very few bikes on trains in the NL aside from a few
Bromptons: there are so many bikes in use it would simply be completely
unworkable (of course there are factors such as easy and cheap bike hire
at most stations if the joined up buses and trams aren't for you that
help out in the NL, but I digress...).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:20:31 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Unless you make demands that cycles are loaded on one part of the train

Completely reasonable demand at rush hour, otherwise the cycles are in
peoples way.

Quoted message said:

and you provide no information at all on the platform as to where that
part may stop then there is no reason loading a bicycle takes any longer

This is absolutely not my experience, bicycles take significantly
longer than people to get on and off the train, and as this is the
reason given, as is [censored]-packet correct, I think you need more than
your assertions that it's not the case, do you have any research on
it?

Jim.

Jim Ley said:

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:20:31 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Unless you make demands that cycles are loaded on one part of the train

Completely reasonable demand at rush hour, otherwise the cycles are in
peoples way.

But you haven't answered the other part which is if you make the demand
then indicate where on the platform people should stand to enable fast
loading rather than complain they delay the train searching for the
right carriage because you haven't told them where it is.

Some even exacerbate the problem by locking the bike compartment to make
you go and search out the guard to unlock it for you.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:30:32 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Jim Ley said:

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:20:31 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Unless you make demands that cycles are loaded on one part of the train

Completely reasonable demand at rush hour, otherwise the cycles are in
peoples way.

But you haven't answered the other part which is if you make the demand
then indicate where on the platform people should stand to enable fast
loading rather than complain they delay the train searching for the
right carriage because you haven't told them where it is.

Once you've done the journey once, you should know, if you don't and
it's not repeatable, how are you supposed to mark-up the platform?

Certainly that would be a useful feature, I don't see that it would
increase loading time sufficiently to make the 45second stopped time
that they have on peak time trains.

Jim.

Quoted message said:

Certainly that would be a useful feature, I don't see that it would
increase loading time sufficiently to make the 45second stopped time
that they have on peak time trains.

Easy.

On a Virgin Train, even with a bike-load of panniers to load separately
I could be on the train for it ready to depart in well under 45 seconds.
It is relatively easy to figure out where to put your bike (one end of
the train, just need to find out in advance which way the train is
coming in and then pick that end), just hop in with your bike then luggage or
other way around. My bike will not be stowed in 45 seconds, but the
train can certainly move.
So the answer is, better design of train facilities for cyclists. Not
just from the perspective of the cyclist, but also from the perspective of
the operator. As somebody already mentioned here, First Great Western
shot themselves in the foot with their new trains which require you to
load your bike and then leave the bike compartment so it can be locked,
and then run around to a main door of a train. This takes an age, and is
clearly a poor solution from their perspective.

Tom

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 09:48:43 +0000 (UTC), tom<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Certainly that would be a useful feature, I don't see that it would
increase loading time sufficiently to make the 45second stopped time
that they have on peak time trains.

Easy.

On a Virgin Train, even with a bike-load of panniers to load separately
I could be on the train for it ready to depart in well under 45 seconds.

And the 2nd and 3rd bikes?

Quoted message said:

So the answer is, better design of train facilities for cyclists.

How much more would you pay to take your cycle?

Jim.

Quoted message said:

And the 2nd and 3rd bikes?

Perhaps longer than 45 seconds if all fully laden with panniers, but
without 3 could get in within that time. During the peak it is less likely
any, let alone all 3, would be fully laden anyhow.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So the answer is, better design of train facilities for cyclists.

How much more would you pay to take your cycle?

As much as a punter taking a large suitcase.

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 10:22:48 +0000 (UTC), tom<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And the 2nd and 3rd bikes?

Perhaps longer than 45 seconds if all fully laden with panniers, but
without 3 could get in within that time. During the peak it is less likely
any, let alone all 3, would be fully laden anyhow.

So how come this is completely at variance to what actually happens on
trains when cyclists are getting on - also the 45seconds is total
stopped time, the actual time available.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So the answer is, better design of train facilities for cyclists.

How much more would you pay to take your cycle?

As much as a punter taking a large suitcase.

In that case there's absolutely no reason for the train companies to
invest in your new trains and procedures to make bike loading faster
is there - why should cyclists get the subsidy?

Jim.

Jim Ley said:

Once you've done the journey once, you should know, if you don't and
it's not repeatable, how are you supposed to mark-up the platform?

Certainly that would be a useful feature, I don't see that it would
increase loading time sufficiently to make the 45second stopped time
that they have on peak time trains.

It shouldn't be a case of having to know or guess. Its the old BR
attitude still prevailing that customers are a problem and if the
customer can't conform to the train co's lack of organisation its the
customer's problem not theirs. Why can't they identify where the cycle
store is on the train and communicate it to waiting passengers? With
Virgin you know its at one end or the other but nobody is able to tell
you on which end of the due train it will be and there is no reason
other than laziness or indifference why they can't.

An anecdote. When I first went to Japan in the early 80's foreigners
were rare. When we first went into the Hankyu department store we had
great difficulty with our nascent Japanese to find where things were or
buy anything. Within a couple of weeks the store had printed an English
language guide and taught all its staff to say "Just a minute please"
and go and fetch the designated English speaker on each floor to deal
with us. All without any prompting from us other than going to the
store. If the store had been run by the UK rail managers they would
have put a no foreigners sign on the door and thrown us out if we tried
to enter.

It could be made easy to take bikes on trains but all the train
companies can think of is of cyclists as problems.

<Rant mode off>

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon