Banana top.

Simon Mason said:

Some people might remember the Raleigh Banana I fished out of the river and
restored. The bloke who I gave it to has alerted me to this jersey:

http://qurl.net/3R

You know it makes sense. Just save your bid for the last 30 seconds or
you'll push up the price.

On 23/8/04 4:33 pm, in article [email hidden], "Simon

Mason said:

Some people might remember the Raleigh Banana I fished out of the river and
restored. The bloke who I gave it to has alerted me to this jersey:

I have a long sleeved version that I don't wear very often, partly because I
have short arms and the sleeves are very long.

...d

Zog The Undeniable said:

Simon Mason said:

Some people might remember the Raleigh Banana I fished out of the river and
restored. The bloke who I gave it to has alerted me to this jersey:

http://qurl.net/3R

You know it makes sense. Just save your bid for the last 30 seconds or
you'll push up the price.

Use Auction Sentry and save your bid till the last 8 seconds. Last
time we had this discussion James Annan completely failed to see how
sniping could possibly work. He has such a rational mind that he has
problems seeing that most people behave irrationally. This is the only
reason that sniping is a good strategy for eBay buyers.

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

Dave Kahn said:

Use Auction Sentry and save your bid till the last 8 seconds. Last
time we had this discussion James Annan completely failed to see how
sniping could possibly work. He has such a rational mind that he has
problems seeing that most people behave irrationally. This is the only
reason that sniping is a good strategy for eBay buyers.

I fail to see how that mode of working does anything for me in most
cases... If the bidding hasn't started yet there is no particular point
in being first off the block, but if there's at least one bid in and you
know your maximum (and I don't get into auctions where I don't, that way
lies madness and vastly overpriced merchandise) then I can't see any
reason for not just letting the built in bid raising functionality do
its stuff. A sniper doing it his way and me doing it the "normal" way
don't have any defective advantages either way if we both have a maximum
bid, because the end result is the higher max bid will get it for the
lower maximum bid plus the minimum increment. The timing isn't
relevant. Or if I've missed the point, please describe, using examples,
how I'm better off sniping given Item X with a start bid of £1 that I'm
willing to pay £15 for, and a sniper who is willing to pay in Case A
£17.50, and in case B £12.50.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

A sniper doing it his way and me doing it the "normal" way
don't have any defective advantages either way if we both have a maximum
bid, because the end result is the higher max bid will get it for the
lower maximum bid plus the minimum increment. The timing isn't
relevant.

The timing is relevant, because the longer you give someone to think
about whether they will spend that little bit extra, the more chance
there is that they will.

Also, people look at an auction and think: £25! For just £1 more I could
own it. And if the bidding has gone up to £35, which means at least two
people think it's worth that much, you'll still have people wandering in
and thinking: £35! For just £1 more I could own it.

By declaring your hand as late as possible:

you give the for £1 more I could own it brigade fewer chances to take
the bidding above your maximum price

you give more serious rivals less time in which to persuade themselves
that they want it more than you do

Other people aren't employing rationalistic benefit-maximising
strategies on eBay, and it's necessary to work around what they are in
fact doing.

Daniele
--
Apple Juice Ltd
Chapter Arts Centre
Market Road www.apple-juice.co.uk
Cardiff CF5 1QE 029 2019 0140

in message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch

(') said:

Dave Kahn said:

Use Auction Sentry and save your bid till the last 8 seconds. Last
time we had this discussion James Annan completely failed to see how
sniping could possibly work. He has such a rational mind that he has
problems seeing that most people behave irrationally. This is the
only reason that sniping is a good strategy for eBay buyers.

I fail to see how that mode of working does anything for me in most
cases... If the bidding hasn't started yet there is no particular
point in being first off the block, but if there's at least one bid in
and you know your maximum (and I don't get into auctions where I
don't, that way lies madness and vastly overpriced merchandise) then I
can't see any reason for not just letting the built in bid raising
functionality do its stuff.

If you put your maximum bid on early, other bidders have a chance to
explore what it is, so you'll be bid up to at least their maximum. If
you put your maximum bid on very late, they have no time to react and
you will probably get the item for much less than you would have been
prepared to pay. That is precisely how I was able to afford a Dolan
frame. <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk:8180/dogfood/story?article=12>

Quoted message said:

A sniper doing it his way and me doing it the "normal" way
don't have any defective advantages either way if we both have a
maximum bid, because the end result is the higher max bid will get it
for the
lower maximum bid plus the minimum increment.

Yup. So you'll pay at least the other bidders maximum, which may be more
than you can easily afford and more than you would otherwise have had
to.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken. I found a rather battered tube of Araldite
resin in the bottom of the toolbag.

(D.M. Procida) said:

Peter Clinch said:

A sniper doing it his way and me doing it the "normal" way
don't have any defective advantages either way if we both have a maximum
bid, because the end result is the higher max bid will get it for the
lower maximum bid plus the minimum increment. The timing isn't
relevant.

The timing is relevant, because the longer you give someone to think
about whether they will spend that little bit extra, the more chance
there is that they will.

Also, people look at an auction and think: £25! For just £1 more I could
own it. And if the bidding has gone up to £35, which means at least two
people think it's worth that much, you'll still have people wandering in
and thinking: £35! For just £1 more I could own it.

OTOH, they may come along and think "Oh, that's more than I want to
pay".

I'd like to see a study done of this before I could reach any strong
conclusions. My hunch is that bid sniping may be something people do
so that they feel in control of a process that they have no control
of.

A

Dave Kahn said:

Use Auction Sentry and save your bid till the last 8 seconds. Last
time we had this discussion James Annan completely failed to see how
sniping could possibly work. He has such a rational mind that he has
problems seeing that most people behave irrationally. This is the only
reason that sniping is a good strategy for eBay buyers.

I see that it can work, but only to defeat grossly stupid opponents, not
merely irrational ones. The sniper is relying on someone choosing not to
bid their maximum because they don't understand how auctions work.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:45:45 +0100, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Dave Kahn said:

Use Auction Sentry and save your bid till the last 8 seconds. Last
time we had this discussion James Annan completely failed to see how
sniping could possibly work. He has such a rational mind that he has
problems seeing that most people behave irrationally. This is the only
reason that sniping is a good strategy for eBay buyers.

I fail to see how that mode of working does anything for me in most
cases... If the bidding hasn't started yet there is no particular point
in being first off the block, but if there's at least one bid in and you
know your maximum (and I don't get into auctions where I don't, that way
lies madness and vastly overpriced merchandise)

This is the key part.

Sniping obviates 'bidding madness' in your opponent.

Quoted message said:

then I can't see any
reason for not just letting the built in bid raising functionality do
its stuff. A sniper doing it his way and me doing it the "normal" way
don't have any defective advantages either way if we both have a maximum
bid, because the end result is the higher max bid will get it for the
lower maximum bid plus the minimum increment. The timing isn't
relevant. Or if I've missed the point, please describe, using examples,
how I'm better off sniping given Item X with a start bid of £1 that I'm
willing to pay £15 for, and a sniper who is willing to pay in Case A
£17.50, and in case B £12.50.

Pete.

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Peter Clinch wrote:
[re Sniping]

Quoted message said:

I fail to see how that mode of working does anything for me in most
cases... If the bidding hasn't started yet there is no particular
point in being first off the block, but if there's at least one bid
in and you know your maximum (and I don't get into auctions where I
don't, that way lies madness and vastly overpriced merchandise)

This is the crux, and that's eBay for you. Many bidders, I reckon, do not
find it easy to decide on their maximum or they don't know sniping systems
are available. First, it's difficult to put a monetry figure on used or
discontinued goods, then where do you draw the line *exactly*? The
bidding increments are small, down to just 20p for low value items. I can
afford another measly 20p goes the thinking, over and over. Auction Fever
*does* get the better of people and they will often outbid you by a small
amount if you bid early. I'm sure www.vrane.com/snp.html has saved me a
few quid.

Reasonable exceptions: Placing an early low/medium bid to disuade others
from getting hooked in the first place, or bidding when there is a Buy It
Now option (BIN disappears when a bid is placed).

~PB (lime500)

James Annan said:

I see that it can work, but only to defeat grossly stupid opponents,
not merely irrational ones. The sniper is relying on someone choosing
not to bid their maximum because they don't understand how auctions
work.

Or someone who finds it difficulty to decide on a precise maximum and
stick to it. Indecision doesn't equal gross stupidity. A lot of
perfectly decent human beings are indecisve a lot of the time.

Why do real auctions function the way they do, antiques auctions let's
say, where most people don't bid by proxy? Is it because it saves time
for the auction house or is it because that method raises the most money?

~PB

Gawnsoft said:

obviates

Word of the day!

~PB

Gawnsoft said:

This is the key part.
Sniping obviates 'bidding madness' in your opponent.

Yes, must admit that makes good sense, especially in light of the "but
how can I say in advance what I'm prepared to pay for anything?"
questions arising.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:412a10d3.0@entanet...

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

Some people might remember the Raleigh Banana I fished out of the river

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

restored. The bloke who I gave it to has alerted me to this jersey:

http://qurl.net/3R

You know it makes sense. Just save your bid for the last 30 seconds or
you'll push up the price.

I don't have that bike any more. I bought this one instead to match my new
bike:

http://qurl.net/3T

Quoted message said:

than you can easily afford and more than you would otherwise have had
to.

Seeing this discussion ,and being the proud owner/rider of a Raleigh
Banana bike, I rather rashly put a bid on it, then felt a bit daft
because I was about to pay half what I bought the bike for.
I am glad to say I have been outbid, although in all the previous
hours it was on ebay there were no bids.
It wasn't one of you lot was it?If so I do hope you deserve to wear
it.
If not then I wonder if there might be a system for inflating bids on
cheap items by regular dealers.Is there any way ebay regulate that
sort of activity?

TerryJ

"Terry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than you can easily afford and more than you would otherwise have had
to.

Seeing this discussion ,and being the proud owner/rider of a Raleigh
Banana bike, I rather rashly put a bid on it, then felt a bit daft
because I was about to pay half what I bought the bike for.
I am glad to say I have been outbid, although in all the previous
hours it was on ebay there were no bids.
It wasn't one of you lot was it?If so I do hope you deserve to wear
it.
If not then I wonder if there might be a system for inflating bids on
cheap items by regular dealers.Is there any way ebay regulate that
sort of activity?

It's called shill bidding.

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

cheers,
clive

On 24/8/04 4:12 pm, in article
[email hidden], "Terry"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than you can easily afford and more than you would otherwise have had
to.

Seeing this discussion ,and being the proud owner/rider of a Raleigh
Banana bike, I rather rashly put a bid on it, then felt a bit daft
because I was about to pay half what I bought the bike for.

Maybe I should dig mine out and see what size it is if you are interested..

...d

Quoted message said:

I am glad to say I have been outbid, although in all the previous
hours it was on ebay there were no bids.
It wasn't one of you lot was it?If so I do hope you deserve to wear
it.
If not then I wonder if there might be a system for inflating bids on
cheap items by regular dealers.Is there any way ebay regulate that
sort of activity?

TerryJ

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Or if I've missed the point, please describe, using examples,
how I'm better off sniping given Item X with a start bid of 1 that I'm
willing to pay 15 for, and a sniper who is willing to pay in Case A
17.50, and in case B 12.50.

You're no better off because both you and the sniper are using
rational strategies. As long as you are the only two bidders the one
with the higher maximum will win. In fact you have a slight advantage
by not sniping because if your maxima are the same you will win. Also
you are not running the risk of failing to get your bid on in time
because of a glitch.

However, many people on eBay simply bid in response to previous bids.
It's when one of these takes an interest in your item that sniping can
pay off. If you show your hand early you may lose the item, or at
least pay a higher price because he'll keep raising his bid until he
either exceeds your maximum or simply gives up. If you hold off until
the last few seconds he'll simply bid the minimum. Like James you are
a highly rational person and will therefore find this hard to believe,
but it really does happen often enough to make a difference. If you're
the only sniper you'll get the item for the first increment above the
minimum. If you're not, the sniper with the highest maximum will win.

Sniping also works well if you're trying to buy a single item from
multiple auctions at the lowest possible price. You could put low
proxy bids on several auctions, but if your bid is high enough to
stand a chance of winning you run the risk of ending up with more
items than you want. By sniping every auction you will eventually win
one at your bargain price. Doing this manually is time consuming and
tedious, so again sniping software is useful.

--
Dave...

James Annan said:

I see that it can work, but only to defeat grossly stupid opponents, not
merely irrational ones. The sniper is relying on someone choosing not to
bid their maximum because they don't understand how auctions work.

I'm an empiricist and I can tell you that sniping really does work for
me. You get things at lower prices because no-one knows what your
maximum bid is so no-one tries to match it.