Baking Soda vs. Limestone/Dolomite

"xyz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Which has the higher Ph, the greater alkalinizing effect, baking soda
or dolomite/limestone? If you have an answer for that, could you
explain in a few sentences,also, the difference between a Ph of,say,
7.1 and 7.2. It is not merely a difference of 1.4%, but an
exponential difference, right? Thanks.

Limestone (assume calcium/magnesium carbonate) has a greater ability to take up
protons, i.e. to follow the following reaction:

CO3(2-) + H3O(+) --> HCO3(-) + H2O (Calcium is not a participant in this reaction,
nor is magnesium from magnesium carbonate.)

The carbonate anion is converted to bicarbonate anion at the expense of one
hydronium (H30+) cation. So, after carbonate reacts with an acidic hydronium, you
end up with bicarbonate and water. Bicarbonate can take up a proton in a similar
reaction, so on a molecule per molecule basis, carbonate has twice the alkalinizing
effect of bicarbonate. In blood chemistry (if there is where you're going with
this), the bicarbonate concentration vastly exceeds that of carbonate, and thus
provides a pH buffering effect. The other controlling variable is CO2 concentration.

pH (note the little p, big H), is a symbolic notation. Little p means "minus log
of". H, in this context, means "concentration of hydronium ion".

So, to convert pH 7.1 to an actual concentration, you determine the value of 10
^ -7.1, where ten is raised to that exponent value. That is a concentration of 7.94
X 10^-8. Similarly, pH 7.2 converts to 6.30 X 10^-8. Therefore, a pH of 7.1 is an
increase in hydronium ion concentration of 26% over that of pH 7.2.

I hope that helps.

Lar

"Larry Hoover" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"xyz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Which has the higher Ph, the greater alkalinizing effect, baking soda
or dolomite/limestone? If you have an answer for that, could you
explain in a few sentences,also, the difference between a Ph of,say,
7.1 and 7.2. It is not merely a difference of 1.4%, but an
exponential difference, right? Thanks.

Limestone (assume calcium/magnesium carbonate) has a greater ability to take up
protons, i.e. to follow the following reaction:

CO3(2-) + H3O(+) --> HCO3(-) + H2O (Calcium is not a participant in this reaction,
nor is magnesium from magnesium carbonate.)

The carbonate anion is converted to bicarbonate anion at the expense of one
hydronium (H30+) cation. So, after carbonate reacts with an acidic hydronium, you
end up with bicarbonate and water. Bicarbonate can take up a proton in a similar
reaction, so on a molecule per molecule basis, carbonate has twice the alkalinizing
effect of bicarbonate.

How many molecules of carbonate exist in 5 grams of dolomite and how
many molecules of bicarbonate exist in 5 grams of baking soda?
Haven't pH values already been calculated for baking soda and
dolomite? [I've always thought the former was more base, more
alkalinizing. If you mix baking soda with ascorbic acid, you get
fizzing. Mixing dolomite with ascorbic acid produces no apparent
fizzing.] In blood chemistry (if there is where
you're going with

Quoted message said:

this),

[yes]
the bicarbonate concentration vastly exceeds that of carbonate, and
thus

Quoted message said:

provides a pH buffering effect. The other controlling variable is CO2 concentration.

I read somewhere that hospitalized burn victims need to
manage/restrict their carbohydrate intake due to acidosis issues
surrounding CO2 build-up and the impaired ability of the patient to
expire those gases.

Quoted message said:

pH (note the little p, big H), is a symbolic notation. Little p means "minus log
of". H, in this context, means "concentration of hydronium ion". Hydrogen or Hydronium?

So, to convert pH 7.1 to an actual concentration, you determine the value of 10
^ -7.1, where ten is raised to that exponent value. 10 raised to the -7.1 power comes out to a far greater number than 7.94, no? That is a concentration of 7.94
X 10^-8. Similarly, pH 7.2 converts to 6.30 X 10^-8. Therefore, a pH of 7.1 is an
increase in hydronium ion concentration of 26% over that of pH 7.2.

I was under the impression that a .1 difference represented a 10?- to
100-fold influence on pH. You're saying the difference between 7.1
and 7.2 is 26%?

Quoted message said:

I hope that helps.

What did mankind do before the invention of the Solvay Process and
the resulting creation of bicarbonate of soda. Fortunately, they
didn't have to contend with modern pizza!

Quoted message said:

Lar

"xyz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Larry Hoover" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"xyz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Which has the higher Ph, the greater alkalinizing effect, baking soda
or dolomite/limestone? If you have an answer for that, could you
explain in a few sentences,also, the difference between a Ph of,say,
7.1 and 7.2. It is not merely a difference of 1.4%, but an
exponential difference, right? Thanks.

Limestone (assume calcium/magnesium carbonate) has a greater ability to take up
protons, i.e. to follow the following reaction:

CO3(2-) + H3O(+) --> HCO3(-) + H2O (Calcium is not a participant in this
reaction,
nor is magnesium from magnesium carbonate.)

The carbonate anion is converted to bicarbonate anion at the expense of one
hydronium (H30+) cation. So, after carbonate reacts with an acidic hydronium, you
end up with bicarbonate and water. Bicarbonate can take up a proton in a similar
reaction, so on a molecule per molecule basis, carbonate has twice the
alkalinizing
effect of bicarbonate.

Quoted message said:

How many molecules of carbonate exist in 5 grams of dolomite and how
many molecules of bicarbonate exist in 5 grams of baking soda?

I'll simply say that bicarbonate is at a higher concentration in sodium bicarbonate
than carbonate is in dolomite. I don't think the exact number of molecules is really
important.

Quoted message said:

Haven't pH values already been calculated for baking soda and
dolomite? [I've always thought the former was more base, more
alkalinizing. If you mix baking soda with ascorbic acid, you get
fizzing. Mixing dolomite with ascorbic acid produces no apparent
fizzing.]

That's due to solubility. Dolomite is not readily soluble in water, or weak acids.
In the stomach, HCl is the acid. Even in that acid, though, dolomite is not fully
dissolved, unless it is reduced to a very fine powder slurry before ingestion.
Dolomite is pretty stable, or it would have washed away in nature, rather than
accumulating.

Sodium bicarbonate is readily soluble. That makes it more reactive with hydronium
cations, even those produced by a weak organic acid.

What happens in the stomach ought to be kept distinct from what happens in the
blood.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In blood chemistry (if there is where

you're going with

Quoted message said:

this),

[yes]
the bicarbonate concentration vastly exceeds that of carbonate, and
thus

Quoted message said:

provides a pH buffering effect. The other controlling variable is CO2
concentration.

I read somewhere that hospitalized burn victims need to
manage/restrict their carbohydrate intake due to acidosis issues
surrounding CO2 build-up and the impaired ability of the patient to
expire those gases.

That's a very special case, and I think you're talking about the effect of burns
inside the lungs, i.e. inhalation injury.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pH (note the little p, big H), is a symbolic notation. Little p means "minus log
of". H, in this context, means "concentration of hydronium ion". Hydrogen or
Hydronium?

So, to convert pH 7.1 to an actual concentration, you determine the value of 10
^ -7.1, where ten is raised to that exponent value. 10 raised to the -7.1 power
comes out to a far greater number than 7.94, no? That is a concentration of 7.94
X 10^-8. Similarly, pH 7.2 converts to 6.30 X 10^-8. Therefore, a pH of 7.1 is an
increase in hydronium ion concentration of 26% over that of pH 7.2.

Quoted message said:

I was under the impression that a .1 difference represented a 10?- to
100-fold influence on pH. You're saying the difference between 7.1
and 7.2 is 26%?

Check it with a calculator.

By definition, because pH is based on a log-base 10 scale, each increment in the
number coming before the decimal place represents a 10-fold change in concentration.
A pH of 6.0 is exactly 10 times more concentrated than a pH of 7.0. A ph of 6.1 is
exactly 10 times more concentrated than a pH of 7.1. That's 1000 %.

As another example, comparing pH 7.8 to pH 7.9. The former is 10^-7.8, or 1.59 X
10-8 molar in hydronium ions. The latter is 1.26 X 10^-8. A pH of 7.8 is an increase
in hydronium ion concentration of 26% over that of pH 7.9. That's the beauty of
logarithms.

In the first example I gave earlier, the absolute increase (found by subtraction)
in hydronium ion concentration was 1. 64 X 10^-8. In the second example, the
increase was 0.33 X 10^-8 molar. That's the confusing part of logarithms.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I hope that helps.

What did mankind do before the invention of the Solvay Process and
the resulting creation of bicarbonate of soda. Fortunately, they
didn't have to contend with modern pizza!

Quoted message said:

Lar

I really don't know where you're going with the pizza idea.

Lar

Larry Hoover said:

"xyz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Larry Hoover" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"xyz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Which has the higher Ph, the greater alkalinizing effect, baking

soda

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> or dolomite/limestone? If you have an answer for that, could

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> explain in a few sentences,also, the difference between a Ph

of,say,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 7.1 and 7.2. It is not merely a difference of 1.4%, but an
> exponential difference, right? Thanks.

Limestone (assume calcium/magnesium carbonate) has a greater

ability to take up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

protons, i.e. to follow the following reaction:

CO3(2-) + H3O(+) --> HCO3(-) + H2O (Calcium is not a participant

in this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reaction,
nor is magnesium from magnesium carbonate.)

The carbonate anion is converted to bicarbonate anion at the

expense of one

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hydronium (H30+) cation. So, after carbonate reacts with an acidic

hydronium, you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

end up with bicarbonate and water. Bicarbonate can take up a

proton in a similar

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reaction, so on a molecule per molecule basis, carbonate has twice

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

alkalinizing
effect of bicarbonate.

Quoted message said:

How many molecules of carbonate exist in 5 grams of dolomite and

how

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many molecules of bicarbonate exist in 5 grams of baking soda?

I'll simply say that bicarbonate is at a higher concentration in

sodium bicarbonate

Quoted message said:

than carbonate is in dolomite. I don't think the exact number of

molecules is really

Quoted message said:

important.

Quoted message said:

Haven't pH values already been calculated for baking soda and
dolomite? [I've always thought the former was more base, more
alkalinizing. If you mix baking soda with ascorbic acid, you get
fizzing. Mixing dolomite with ascorbic acid produces no apparent
fizzing.]

That's due to solubility. Dolomite is not readily soluble in water,

or weak acids.

Quoted message said:

In the stomach, HCl is the acid. Even in that acid, though, dolomite

is not fully

Quoted message said:

dissolved, unless it is reduced to a very fine powder slurry before

ingestion.

Quoted message said:

Dolomite is pretty stable, or it would have washed away in nature,

rather than

Quoted message said:

accumulating.

Sodium bicarbonate is readily soluble. That makes it more reactive

with hydronium

Quoted message said:

cations, even those produced by a weak organic acid.

What happens in the stomach ought to be kept distinct from what

happens in the

Quoted message said:

blood.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In blood chemistry (if there is where

you're going with

Quoted message said:

this),

[yes]
the bicarbonate concentration vastly exceeds that of carbonate, and
thus

Quoted message said:

provides a pH buffering effect. The other controlling variable is

CO2

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

concentration.

I read somewhere that hospitalized burn victims need to
manage/restrict their carbohydrate intake due to acidosis issues
surrounding CO2 build-up and the impaired ability of the patient to
expire those gases.

That's a very special case, and I think you're talking about the

effect of burns

Quoted message said:

inside the lungs, i.e. inhalation injury.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pH (note the little p, big H), is a symbolic notation. Little p

means "minus log

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of". H, in this context, means "concentration of hydronium ion".

Hydrogen or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hydronium?

So, to convert pH 7.1 to an actual concentration, you determine

the value of 10

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

^ -7.1, where ten is raised to that exponent value. 10 raised to

the -7.1 power

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

comes out to a far greater number than 7.94, no? That is a

concentration of 7.94

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

X 10^-8. Similarly, pH 7.2 converts to 6.30 X 10^-8. Therefore, a

pH of 7.1 is an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

increase in hydronium ion concentration of 26% over that of pH

7.2.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was under the impression that a .1 difference represented a 10?-

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

100-fold influence on pH. You're saying the difference between 7.1
and 7.2 is 26%?

Check it with a calculator.

By definition, because pH is based on a log-base 10 scale, each

increment in the

Quoted message said:

number coming before the decimal place represents a 10-fold change in

concentration.

Quoted message said:

A pH of 6.0 is exactly 10 times more concentrated than a pH of 7.0. A

ph of 6.1 is

Quoted message said:

exactly 10 times more concentrated than a pH of 7.1. That's 1000 %.

As another example, comparing pH 7.8 to pH 7.9. The former is

10^-7.8, or 1.59 X

Quoted message said:

10-8 molar in hydronium ions. The latter is 1.26 X 10^-8. A pH of 7.8

is an increase

Quoted message said:

in hydronium ion concentration of 26% over that of pH 7.9. That's

the beauty of

Quoted message said:

logarithms.

In the first example I gave earlier, the absolute increase (found by

subtraction)

Quoted message said:

in hydronium ion concentration was 1. 64 X 10^-8. In the second

example, the

Quoted message said:

increase was 0.33 X 10^-8 molar. That's the confusing part of

logarithms.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I hope that helps.

What did mankind do before the invention of the Solvay Process and
the resulting creation of bicarbonate of soda. Fortunately, they
didn't have to contend with modern pizza!

Quoted message said:

Lar

I really don't know where you're going with the pizza idea.

Things that cause dyspepsia. Or how was Renal Acid Load maintained in
ancient Rome, for instance. I presume they ate a more balanced diet.
More vegetables. Non-chlorinated drinking water. Limestone is not in
short supply in Western Europe. Thanks for your reply. It was
helpful.

Quoted message said:

Lar

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Larry Hoover said:

I really don't know where you're going with the pizza idea.

Quoted message said:

Things that cause dyspepsia. Or how was Renal Acid Load maintained in
ancient Rome, for instance.

The kidneys are pretty good at sorting that out, all by themselves.

Quoted message said:

I presume they ate a more balanced diet.
More vegetables. Non-chlorinated drinking water. Limestone is not in
short supply in Western Europe. Thanks for your reply. It was
helpful.

I'm still not sure where you're trying to take this discussion, but you might be
interested in these two links:

http://www.basica.de/english/downloads/PRAL-NMT_Basica_engl.pdf

http://www.mgwater.com/estend.shtml

Lar